The New Left and Feminism - A Right Winge

[irrationalNinja]

If blacks people didn’t have a significant history of being treated badly by cops and authorities they would have never signed up for blm.

But BLM is a domestic terrorist organization that has nothing to do with outrage against police brutality, and everything to do with “something for nothing” (Black Nikes Matter), so you’ll need to come up with a different example. Criminals do what criminals do.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

But BLM is a domestic terrorist organization that has nothing to do with outrage against police brutality, and everything to do with “something for nothing” (Black Nikes Matter), so you’ll need to come up with a different example. Criminals do what criminals do.

“Black Lives Matter” is a really good example of the Jingle/Jangle fallacy...

The “Jingle-Jangle” fallacy and it’s implications for clear discussion

I came across a logical fallacy I had never heard of a couple of days ago. It seems to be of interest to people engaged in psychological research, but to me it seemed even more relevant to people from various backgrounds engaged in debate, where common (yet confusing) language is used...

www.vigilantcitizenforums.com

Black Lives [of actual black people] Matter.

The self-styled political organisation that makes use of this designation doesn’t.

 

[justjess]

But BLM is a domestic terrorist organization that has nothing to do with outrage against police brutality, and everything to do with “something for nothing” (Black Nikes Matter), so you’ll need to come up with a different example. Criminals do what criminals do.

Do you know any black people?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Do you know any black people?

Sorry to cut in Jess - I had a conversation some months ago with a very good friend of mine who happens to be black. He didn’t like BLM (the organisation) either and pointed out that a lot of the people he knew who had been drawn into it were they types who were not prepared to work hard, as no who would subsequently blame others for their disenfranchisement. His perspective was not unlike that expressed by @irrationalNinja

 

[justjess]

Sorry to cut in Jess - I had a conversation some months ago with a very good friend of mine who happens to be black. He didn’t like BLM (the organisation) either and pointed out that a lot of the people he knew who had been drawn into it were they types who were not prepared to work hard, as no who would subsequently blame others for their disenfranchisement. His perspective was not unlike that expressed by @irrationalNinja

Wasn’t why I asked red

ask that same friend how he feels when he sees video footage of black people being killed by cops. Ask him how he feels when he’s getting pulled over. If he lives in America that is

my black friends are pharmacists and lawyers and doctors and psychologists and business owners. I could tell you how they feel but maybe it would be better for you to ask around yourself.

no movement that gains traction is ever pure. There is too much incentive for movements to be coopted. The reasons that people are drawn to movements are what should be looked at instead.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Wasn’t why I asked red

ask that same friend how he feels when he sees video footage of black people being killed by cops. Ask him how he feels when he’s getting pulled over. If he lives in America that is

my black friends are pharmacists and lawyers and doctors and psychologists and business owners. I could tell you how they feel but maybe it would be better for you to ask around yourself.

no movement that gains traction is ever pure. There is too much incentive for movements to be coopted. The reasons that people are drawn to movements are what should be looked at instead.

I agree with the observations you make for the reasons why a movement called “Black Lives Matter” would form - a question for you though Jess - do you think the movement BLM and it’s goals represent the true aspirations of black people or (as seems likely to me) the movement sought to harness the legitimate feelings of black people to make political and social gain from them?

In that sense, I am asking if it is an organic expression or a cynical use of the situation created by the death of George Floyd?

 

[justjess]

I agree with the observations you make for the reasons why a movement called “Black Lives Matter” would form - a question for you though Jess - do you think the movement BLM and it’s goals represent the true aspirations of black people or (as seems likely to me) the movement sought to harness the legitimate feelings of black people to make political and social gain from them?

In that sense, I am asking if it is an organic expression or a cynical use of the situation created by the death of George Floyd?

Why can’t it be both?

 

[irrationalNinja]

ask that same friend how he feels when he sees video footage of black people being killed by cops.

When criminals do crime, regardless of the color of their skin, they have the potential to come into contact with police officers. When caught committing crimes, the best thing a criminal can do is to acquiesce to an officer’s request. Noncompliance with police orders is not recommended, regardless of the color of a criminal’s skin. Once the criminal decides not to comply, he is taking a risk that the officer will react as he is trained to react (HINT: involves use of deadly force). If the criminal goes further, and attempts to stab a police officer, or use a taser on an officer, or take an officer’s gun, or if he closes the distance quickly and appears to intend grievous bodily harm on an officer, the criminal might get killed.

But isn’t that just one of the risks criminals take doing crime and attempting grievous bodily harm on people who are trained to protect themselves and others? Wouldn’t any law-abiding citizen do what is necessary to protect himself, or herself, from grievous bodily harm, up to and including killing the criminal who intends harm?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Why can’t it be both?

I think perhaps it is. I once studied Judo and the one thing I never forgot was that it’s core principle was to make use on an opponents attack by timing and positioning to put him on the floor.

Martin Luther-King caught the tide of discontentment and turned it to good, leading to positive social change. BLM has taken the force of recent valid anger and so far, the fruit of it has been greater anarchy and division.

 

[justjess]

I think perhaps it is. I once studied Judo and the one thing I never forgot was that it’s core principle was to make use on an opponents attack by timing and positioning to put him on the floor.

Martin Luther-King caught the tide of discontentment and turned it to good, leading to positive social change. BLM has taken the force of recent valid anger and so far, the fruit of it has been greater anarchy and division.

MLK has been white washed, just to be fair. The civil rights movement was a lot more radical then what they teach the kids in elementary school. Passage of time and a need to deter future radical movements means that the PTB significantly reframed and marketed an MLK that wasn’t exactly accurate. And even if it was - they beat him, called him a communist and all sorts of other things, maligned him and eventually killed him too.

as far as today’s blm movement - there is righteous anger, there is misplaced anger, there are calls for division from within and without, and there are straight up attempts at obfuscation of the movement whenever it calls for unity. I don’t think any of that is so much a consequence of the blm movement itself so much as it is a consequence of its place in time during a season of extreme political and social division on every single front imaginable.

 

[justjess]

When criminals do crime, regardless of the color of their skin, they have the potential to come into contact with police officers. When caught committing crimes, the best thing a criminal can do is to acquiesce to an officer’s request. Noncompliance with police orders is not recommended, regardless of the color of a criminal’s skin. Once the criminal decides not to comply, he is taking a risk that the officer will react as he is trained to react (HINT: involves use of deadly force). If the criminal goes further, and attempts to stab a police officer, or use a taser on an officer, or take an officer’s gun, or if he closes the distance quickly and appears to intend grievous bodily harm on an officer, the criminal might get killed.

But isn’t that just one of the risks criminals take doing crime and attempting grievous bodily harm on people who are trained to protect themselves and others? Wouldn’t any law-abiding citizen do what is necessary to protect himself, or herself, from grievous bodily harm, up to and including killing the criminal who intends harm?

That isn’t what I asked. I asked you if you know any black people. I asked red to ask his black non criminal friends how they feel when they see a black person killed by cops on video and how they feel when they are pulled over and approached by police themselves. This isn’t just a criminal black person issue, this is an every black person issue and if you truly wanted to understand any of this you’d go ask around and find out for yourself instead of constantly trying to obfuscate yelling “CRIMINALS”

 

[irrationalNinja]

That isn’t what I asked. I asked you if you know any black people. I asked red to ask his black non criminal friends how they feel when they see a black persons killed by cops on video and how they feel when they are pulled over and approached by police themselves. This isn’t just a criminal black person issue, this is an every black persons issue and if you truly wanted to understand any of this you’d go ask around and find out for yourself instead of constantly trying to obfuscate yelling “CRIMINALS”

I’m sure you have much more anecdotal evidence of black people you know who tell you they think they are oppressed than I have who tell me they think BLM is a terrorist organization. I’m sure nobody knows more black people than you.

Unfortunate for your argument, but most, if not all, of the high profile cases that have resulted in rioting and looting, are criminals in the act of doing crimes when they are caught, react uncivil, even violent, toward whom they were caught, and end up taking the concrete temperature challenge. When law-abiding “black people” see criminals killed while in the act of doing a crime, like most law-abiding citizens, they understand that criminals take risks when they do crimes.

For your argument to be valid, innocent black people need to be getting randomly gunned down in the streets by police. Instead, guilty criminals are getting gunned down, so you should qualify who is getting killed, (regardless of their skin color): criminals in the act of doing crimes.

If a person (regardless of skin color) is part of a domestic terrorist organization, such as BLM, the person likely joined because of feeling oppressed he, or she, cannot do criminal activities. However, there is “rule of law,” in the USA, so following the laws, including following officers’ commands when caught in criminal activity, is the best way for CRIMINALS (regardless of skin color) to not get shot.

 

[morita]

I will not leave myself open to suffering the same fate as my grandmother if tragedy of any sort (death, divorce, abuse, addiction, infidelity) ever falls at my own doorway. No thanks.

that's funny since you're the one who wrote this:

If you want a wealthy good looking man be prepared to get cheated on

Turns out even your broke and ugly husband is prone to cheating now too, and it's not a behaviour specific to "wealthy and good looking".
The upside is, there is no shortage of broke and ugly men around so you probably won't have any problem finding another one if this one cheats on you.

 

[justjess]

that's funny since you're the one who wrote this:

Turns out even your broke and ugly husband is prone to cheating now too, and it's not a behaviour specific to "wealthy and good looking".
The upside is, there is no shortage of broke and ugly men around so you probably won't have any problem finding another one if this one cheats on you.

You really are an ugly human being huh? Who hurt you?

and no, I won’t give up my career for anyone - not because the man I’ve been with for twenty years (who isn’t ugly or broke) is going to cheat on me - but because SHIT HAPPENS. People get sick, they die, they lose their jobs, they split up for any number of reasons. As a so called feminist you should be well aware of how difficult it is for women to re-enter the workforce after taking ANY time off at all, let alone an extended absence.

How many handsome wealthy men do you know? My guess is ZERO based on your attitude and what other little else I know of you - doesn’t seem that’s the environment you grew up in, catch my drift? People of all income classes cheat, people of that particular income class seem to cheat more often - its an entitlement thing.

my two above statements - btw - had nothing to do with eachother.

 

[justjess]

You are proof that most of my bans had to with politics and not behavior. Jesus Christ you’re as bad as I have been on here lol

We always knew what it was. This one runs around the board blatantly attacking and disrespecting people for no reason unprovoked and I’ve never even seen her warned once. It’s not even like in the midst of a heated discussion - just completely out of nowhere. Nasty disgusting human being. I don’t even believe this is a real person because i refuse to believe that people that horrible and miserable actually exist.

 

[morita]

How many handsome wealthy men do you know? My guess is ZERO based on your attitude and what other little else I know of you - doesn’t seem that’s the environment you grew up in, catch my drift? People of all income classes cheat, people of that particular income class seem to cheat more often - its an entitlement thing.

you don't know me at all.
People don't cheat because of entitlement, women choose ugly men thinking they won't cheat but he ends up doing it anyway. Cheaters, like abusers do not have a profile.

 

[morita]

We always knew what it was. This one runs around the board blatantly attacking and disrespecting people for no reason unprovoked and I’ve never even seen her warned once. It’s not even like in the midst of a heated discussion - just completely out of nowhere. Nasty disgusting human being. I don’t even believe this is a real person because i refuse to believe that people that horrible and miserable actually exist.

I'm responding accordingly to your statement. And I never specified anywhere I wanted a wealthy good looking man, but you posted your passive-agressive comment. If you don't see the irony in you posting after you said this that you were afraid your own husband would cheat, you're too far up your own ass.
And the fact that not wanting a broke or ugly automatically means "wealthy good looking" is a stretch. There are tons of men in the middle that are neither broke nor ugly but average in every department. If a guy lives with his parents and he's a student who puts money aside then I thik that's okay. If he's living in his mother's basement and playing video games during the whole day that's a problem. There is a difference, but forum like this one aren't the place for nuanced conversation, this seems to be the place for reactivity.
And I don't attack people for no reason, jesus. I point out bullshit an don't see the need to sugar-coat for people whom I have no respect for. And honestly, I can't stand know-it-alls (to stay polite, and not get into cursing territory) like you who think they're above everyone.
(You might be wondering if I'm a real person but I wonder if you have a life outside these boards, you are at nearly 11000 posts!)
I've always made my opinion on men pretty clear here(any woman who worships them must be like them too). It's really pathetic to see women worship them and be an attack dog for them like you do on this board (they wouldn't reciprocate btw they'll leave u in the dust).
If you think I was trolling, I hope you wouldn't have wasted your time responding to me.
If you really believed I wasn't a real person you would have simply ignored my comment, wouldn't you?

 

[Cintra]

You have to admit the irony though, spending your (general you) life worrying whether or not the person you share a house and a life with, is going to abuse you, cheat on you behind your back etc...

you don't know me at all.

You don't know me either.
Didn't stop you flapping your mouth as though you did.

Now put up a pithy twitter feed from a man hating prostitute to put me in my place.
There's a good girl...
boy...
whatever.

 

[justjess]

you don't know me at all.
People don't cheat because of entitlement, women choose ugly men thinking they won't cheat but he ends up doing it anyway. Cheaters, like abusers do not have a profile.

And you don’t know ME at all. Yet you still make nasty posts with assumptions about who I am. And yeah, cheating happens with all types of people - but I’ve known enough wealthy men to know that it’s something a bit different in that income class then it is for everyone else. Typically their wives turn a blind eye to it because as long as their bank accounts good they don’t care and they tend to cheat too.

I’ve been on these boards since day one (explains the post count - I have a very full life, thanks for the concern. It’s a wonder that the forums work on smart phones and I can post here while doing other things like work and school - the post count may be concerning if it meant I was tethered to a computer somewhere but I’m not and it doesn’t).

On top of that who the fuck am I an attack dog for? On these boards specifically? Can’t think of anyone tbh. And I never once said I was afraid MY husband would cheat. I listed ten reasons why being a stay at home wife/mom was often not in women’s best interest. Are you - the self proclaimed feminist - going to deny those reasons or counter my actual argument?

You claim to be a feminist but tear down every single woman on this board - there arent many women on this board to begin with if you haven’t noticed, the majority of the men on this site have done enough to run them off without a self proclaimed feminist assisting them. If I’m a “know it all snob” (which is basically what your calling me) then what are you?

and yes your comments explaining how you want a man based on materialistic characteristics rubbed me the wrong way. Sorry, not sorry. I don’t understand women who make caricatures of themselves and in turn give all women a bad name - which gives ammo to the men who are inclined to hate us and treat us poorly (both on micro and macro levels) anyway.

Micro and macro meaning personally and policy wise if that wasn’t clear.

 

[Aero]

I get a lot of attention from women that can only be described as out of my league. And I don't blame feminism; I blame other men. Clearly, these women aren't getting something from all those wealthy, handsome men around. But it's hard to gauge what that is from a distance.

Of course, I chalk it up to some form of sexual fantasy. Maybe even a fetish of being with a guy who's super rough around the edges. Either way, there's not much to complain about; this is just me making an observation. I don't think women really want the rich boring dudes. They simply don't want to end up social outcasts for dating a sanitation worker.