Church Rapture on 25 June 2021

[A Freeman]

Doesn't this verse by itself end any and all pre-trib (or mid-trib) rapture fantasies?

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and THEN he shall reward EVERY man according to his WORKS.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

When I became a Christian in about 1982 my parents had an album that ended with this particular song:

That post-trib view constituted my total understanding of the end-times. I believed even though my 10 year old mind also had to admit the possibility of leaving this world early, in the style of Stephen. My studies into eschatology have led me to a view that the Church will be taken before the commencement of the 7 year tribulation. If my understanding is incorrect on this and the events of Daniel 9:27 occur while I’m still here, then I would not abandon my faith since my faith was never in some kind of spiritual “get-out-of-jail free” card. It is in Jesus. Plenty of people in the times we live face tribulation and death for their faith whether they hold a pre-trib view or not!

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

Ok, so to summarize what you are saying, there will be intense persecution and pressure (to the point of death in some/many cases) to take the mark, and those that survive this pressure and persecution will then be sealed by God and protected from being affected by the plagues. Is this accurately what you are saying?

No, all those that refuse the mark of the beast will be sealed by God whether they survive the persecutions or not (Revelation 7:1-4, 14:1). All God's people since creation have always been sealed (2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, 4:30). Those that survive the persecutions and and who will be around when the plagues fall on the unsaved, will be divinely protected by God. Btw I'm not the one saying this, its the Word of God that says it.

Are you saying that Daniel's 70th week does not refer to the tribulation?

This is another man made doctrine from dispensationalism. They lifted the last week (seven years) of the tribulation from the book of Daniel and took it out of context completely.

“Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint ]the Most Holy" (Daniel 9:24). The word “determined” literally means "cut off". God cut off all 70 weeks for “Your people” the Jewish nation to see what they would do with the Messiah (Most Holy) when He appeared. This is about Jesus' first advent.

As I posted in one of my earlier posts, a day in prophetic symbolic language represents a literal year (Numbers 14:34, Ezekiel 4:6). Seventy weeks resolves into 490 days. Applying the day-year principle, 490 days become 490 years.

The 490 years were appointed to the Jewish nation for these six reasons found in Daniel 9:24:

1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness
5. to seal up vision and prophecy
6. to anoint the most Holy

“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate” (Daniel 9:25-27).

The angel gives a breakdown of the 70 weeks as follows:

7 weeks of years for rebuilding of Jerusalem
62 weeks of years to the Messiah
1 week of years to the close of the period of 70 weeks

Christ appeared as the Messiah after sixty-nine weeks. That leaves the 70th week for Christ to minister before the Jews' probation ended. What was to happen in the 70th week? Daniel 9:27 tells us, "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.”

According to the Bible, the ministry of Jesus lasted for three and a half years then He was crucified. In the middle of the week (seven years) Jesus was crucified which brought an end to sacrifice and offering which refers to the sanctuary/temple system and its ceremonies that were about Jesus' ministry and death. Its no coincidence that Jesus died during the passover where the Jews sacrificed a lamb that represented the crucifixion of Christ. In 1 Corinthians 5:7 Paul wrote, “For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.” Christ’s sacrifice fulfilled the Passover feast. He was the Passover Lamb. The Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. Jesus' death brought an end to sacrifices that is why the veil in the temple that separated the holy and most holy rooms was ripped in two from top to bottom (Matthew 27:50-51). In this way, God demonstrated that the Jewish sacrificial system with its rites and ceremonies had ended. Atonement for sins was only available through Christ, and the symbolic practices had been fulfilled through Christ.

Another three and a half years would lead up to the end of the 70 weeks and the end of Jewish probation. During that three and a half years the disciples mainly preached the gospel to the Jews. At the end of the probation the Jews had rejected the Messiah and the gospel message and were no longer God's people just as Daniel had predicted. From then on Jews could be saved only as individuals, in exactly the same way as the Gentiles. As a nation they were no longer a chosen people. Jesus told them, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” (Matthew 23:37-39).

What the dispensationalists did is separate the 70th week from the 69 by thousands of years by shoving it far into the future when the Bible does not do that. They agree that the 69 weeks of Daniel 9:25 refer to the period before Christ's first advent, but then they insert a 2,000-year gap before the 70th week is fulfilled. By this devious manipulation of God's Word, the rapturists believe they have extended the Jewish probation; and based upon this, they teach that all the fleshly Jews will be saved in a great second chance after the "rapture" takes place.

The tragedy of the rapture doctrine is that it takes these beautiful verses of Daniel 9:24-27 that predict the first advent of Jesus, and crucifixion, and apply them to the antichrist. They do this by stating that it is the antichrist that causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease after three and a half years. But Daniel states that it is Jesus who caused the sacrificial system of the Jews to cease when He died on the cross. A misinterpretation that confuses something Christ has done, and applies it to the devil instead, is certainly a tragic occurrence. And yet this is the only way one can arrive at a seven-year tribulation period.

If I understood one of your earlier posts correctly, you are saying that references to 1260 days refer to years not days, correct?

Yes. In biblical symbolic language a day symbolises a literal year.

We must be careful to not presume damnation on others who have believed on Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection and grace through faith. Especially in the past, when many were illiterate (and could not study the scriptures) yet believed and were martyred.

I do not presume damnation of anyone. God will judge us all according to how much we knew and what we did with it. But you know we were discussing Christians who go to Church and sometimes read the Bible but believe in false doctrines because they do not search and study the Bible for themselves.

I agree, which is why I am not claiming the pre trib rapture doctrine as fact. It is one interpretation.

There is one truth in the Bible to any subject. Pre-trib is a false doctrine and contrary to God's truth.

Yes, by their fruits we shall know them.
Clearly any cult leader who teaches literal suicide is not a prophet of God. There are also many pastors/teachers who teach things that contradict scripture, like properity gospel, to name one.
And I definitely spend much more time reading the Bible than reading about it.

Most false doctrine is insidious because its mixed with the truth. Do not think you are not gullible by studying a false doctrine but thinking you're above being led to believe in it. Once we find out that a doctrine is false we should not indulge one more second studying it. That's how the devil gets us!

See, that's the part that makes no sense. How can someone simultaneouly think they'll get another chance while at the same time wanting to be raptured because they don't want to go through the tribulation?

The false doctrine has given them a way out if they don't make it the first time. If they fail at first, try and try again. That's how.

I can see the scenario that if they believe in the tribulation and it doesn't happen they lose their faith. While that is unfortunate, I can see how that makes sense. But it doesn't make sense to believe in it while thinking there is another chance. Especially knowing that things will get more difficult for Christians during the tribulation.

I see your point but do you think every one who believes in the rapture doctrine thinks like you?

Every pastor I have ever watched that teaches pre-trib rapture has taught that the time to get saved and follow Jesus is RIGHT NOW. I have never seen one say any variation of "you have another chance later". And the emphasis on evangelization is also based on the fact that it is better to reach non-believers NOW than to hope they change their mind during the tribulation.

I don't doubt that is what the pastors you've watched preach but the message also says they have another chance to be saved. When I found out about this false doctrine and that millions of Christians believe in it, I was shocked. The doctrine is pleasing to the carnal heart of man but is completely false. Anyway the entire pre-trib doctrine which is dispensationalist is all false and has mixed up and twisted scripture.

Exactly. We must have a love of the truth and study the Bible.
2Thess 2
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Agree.

 

[A Freeman]

To simplify this discussion, please consider the following, which is what God said about being sealed with HIS Mark:-

Revelation 7:4-9
7:4 And I HEARD the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
7:5 Of the tribe of Judah [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:6 Of the tribe of Asher [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasseh [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could count (which is why he was told in verse 4), of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 14:1-4
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the Mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many "waters", and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
14:3 And they sung as it were a New Song (Isaiah 42:10) before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that "Song" except the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the Earth.
14:4 These are they which were not corrupted by women; for they are pure. These are they which follow the Lamb wheresoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb (obeying God NOT women).

According to Father (God), there will be 144,000 who receive Father's Mark (see Jer. 31:31-33, Heb. 8:7-10 and Heb. 10:16) and are redeemed from the Earth.

Hebrews 10:16 This [is] The Covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put My Laws into their hearts, AND IN THEIR MINDS WILL I WRITE THEM;

Therefore, the best and ONLY Way to avoid taking the mark of the beast is to learn how to sing the New Song, which is the harmonious synthesis of the "Song of Moses" (The Law) and the "Song of the Lamb" (the Gospel Example of keeping The Law -- Rev. 15:3).

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Those that survive the persecutions and and who will be around when the plagues fall on the unsaved, will be divinely protected by God.

Yes, thats what i meant to ask.

They lifted the last week (seven years) of the tribulation from the book of Daniel and took it out of context completely.
...
According to the Bible, the ministry of Jesus lasted for three and a half years then He was crucified. In the middle of the week (seven years) Jesus was crucified which brought an end to sacrifice and offering which refers to the sanctuary/temple system and its ceremonies that were about Jesus' ministry and death. Its no coincidence that Jesus died during the passover where the Jews sacrificed a lamb that represented the crucifixion of Christ. In 1 Corinthians 5:7 Paul wrote, “For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.” Christ’s sacrifice fulfilled the Passover feast. He was the Passover Lamb. The Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. Jesus' death brought an end to sacrifices that is why the veil in the temple that separated the holy and most holy rooms was ripped in two from top to bottom (Matthew 27:50-51). In this way, God demonstrated that the Jewish sacrificial system with its rites and ceremonies had ended. Atonement for sins was only available through Christ, and the symbolic practices had been fulfilled through Christ.

Another three and a half years would lead up to the end of the 70 weeks and the end of Jewish probation. During that three and a half years the disciples mainly preached the gospel to the Jews. At the end of the probation the Jews had rejected the Messiah and the gospel message and were no longer God's people just as Daniel had predicted. From then on Jews could be saved only as individuals, in exactly the same way as the Gentiles. As a nation they were no longer a chosen people. Jesus told them, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” (Matthew 23:37-39).

Are you saying there was 3 and a half years between the resurrection and when exactly? When Stephen was martyred and the disciples scattered? When Saul/Paul was converted and became the apostle to the gentiles? When Peter was told nothing was unclean?

Where are you getting the dates from? Verses that show the dates please.

By this devious manipulation of God's Word, the rapturists believe they have extended the Jewish probation; and based upon this, they teach that all the fleshly Jews will be saved in a great second chance after the "rapture" takes place

Interesting.
So although the rapture doctrine has been popularized (though not invented) by zionists, they intend to deceive the Jews that they will have a chance to be saved during the tribulation.

I say "have a chance" because not every pre-trib teacher teaches automatic Jewish salvation at all, though I am aware that some do.

The tragedy of the rapture doctrine is that it takes these beautiful verses of Daniel 9:24-27 that predict the first advent of Jesus, and crucifixion, and apply them to the antichrist. They do this by stating that it is the antichrist that causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease after three and a half years. But Daniel states that it is Jesus who caused the sacrificial system of the Jews to cease when He died on the cross. A misinterpretation that confuses something Christ has done, and applies it to the devil instead, is certainly a tragic occurrence. And yet this is the only way one can arrive at a seven-year tribulation period.

But in Matt24
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand ) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains

After the crucifixion the disciples were not told to flee to the mountains. And after the resurrection they were told to stay in Jerusalem until Pentecost.

Also Dan 11
31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

If Jesus stopping the sacrifice system by his one time perfect sacrifice is what is referred to in Dan9:25-27, is this reference to a different abomination of desolation? Clearly these verses are not referring to Jesus.

Not to mention that there is a historical application to the verses, both before Jesus with Antiochus Epiphanes and after, when the temple was destroyed (which was an appropriate time to flee to the mountains, and from what I have read, the reason why many believers survived). But my point is the historical applications indicate that the abomination of desolation is a bad thing.

Yes. In biblical symbolic language a day symbolises a literal year.

The issue is that in the Bible sometimes a day means a day (like Jesus being dead three literal days), and sometimes it means 1000 years (2Pet3:8).
How do we figure the 1260 days mentioned in Revelation are years?

I do not presume damnation of anyone. God will judge us all according to how much we knew and what we did with it. But you know we were discussing Christians who go to Church and sometimes read the Bible but believe in false doctrines because they do not search and study the Bible for themselves.

Yes. Now if a Christian DOES search and study the Bible that would mean there is nothing to be concerned about if there does not appear to be completely irrefutable proof of a doctrine.

Regardless if someone is pre-trib or not I would encourage them to study the Bible for themselves. Sadly, many won't. So then if they are going to go by what their pastor teaches only, it appears to be a matter of chance, did they wind up at the "correct" church.

I see your point but do you think every one who believes in the rapture doctrine thinks like you?

No, of course not. If they did they would study the Bible diligently. But there are some that do, and they believe that is what the Bible teaches, not just heasay from a pastor.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Yes, thats what i meant to ask.

Are you saying there was 3 and a half years between the resurrection and when exactly? When Stephen was martyred and the disciples scattered? When Saul/Paul was converted and became the apostle to the gentiles? When Peter was told nothing was unclean?

Where are you getting the dates from? Verses that show the dates please.

Interesting.
So although the rapture doctrine has been popularized (though not invented) by zionists, they intend to deceive the Jews that they will have a chance to be saved during the tribulation.

I say "have a chance" because not every pre-trib teacher teaches automatic Jewish salvation at all, though I am aware that some do.

But in Matt24
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand ) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains

After the crucifixion the disciples were not told to flee to the mountains. And after the resurrection they were told to stay in Jerusalem until Pentecost.

Also Dan 11
31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

If Jesus stopping the sacrifice system by his one time perfect sacrifice is what is referred to in Dan9:25-27, is this reference to a different abomination of desolation? Clearly these verses are not referring to Jesus.

Not to mention that there is a historical application to the verses, both before Jesus with Antiochus Epiphanes and after, when the temple was destroyed (which was an appropriate time to flee to the mountains, and from what I have read, the reason why many believers survived). But my point is the historical applications indicate that the abomination of desolation is a bad thing.


The issue is that in the Bible sometimes a day means a day (like Jesus being dead three literal days), and sometimes it means 1000 years (2Pet3:8).
How do we figure the 1260 days mentioned in Revelation are years?


Yes. Now if a Christian DOES search and study the Bible that would mean there is nothing to be concerned about if there does not appear to be completely irrefutable proof of a doctrine.

Regardless if someone is pre-trib or not I would encourage them to study the Bible for themselves. Sadly, many won't. So then if they are going to go by what their pastor teaches only, it appears to be a matter of chance, did they wind up at the "correct" church.


No, of course not. If they did they would study the Bible diligently. But there are some that do, and they believe that is what the Bible teaches, not just heasay from a pastor.

I am put in mind of going looking for a pack of biscuits my wife told me was in the pantry. I knew exactly What they looked like as I had seen the packet many times. I can remember a shouted conversation up the stairs while she was drying her hair, where she told me they were there and I flatly contradicted that idea! After a couple of minutes, she came down and staid, pointing “there!”. Sure enough, they were… right in front of me in a packet I wasn’t expecting!

My point is that we can be so sure we have particular things figured out we can’t see what is right in front of us.

Just looking into the 1260 days [years] from the Adventist position….

Understanding the 1,260-year Prophecy | Adventist World

A legal solution

www.adventistworld.org

 

[Karlysymon]

Another thing that just occured to me: if pastors teach that it is possible to repent of the mark it may lead people into falsely taking it. I don't know what everyone's opinion is of John Mac Arthur, but in one of his sermons he claimed it is possible to repent the mark.

Sept 24 1980

Bible Questions and Answers, Part 11

JOHN: We are so blessed to be together again tonight, and we have about an hour – and hour and a few minutes to share together. The apostle Paul went into a city, and he reasoned with them out

www.gty.org

I know this sermon is old, but if it does not reflect his current beliefs of teachings why is it still on his site?
Also, I believe he is incorrect. IF there is a rapture, there still is salvation for those who are left if they come to Christ, but they must either endure or be martyred. The Bible does not teach repentance from the mark.

That's explosive! Talk about putting someone into a deep sleep! I hope the inquirer went back and read the text (Revelation 14:9-11) for himself. Someone should take McArthur to task on this.

....instead of fantasizing about an unscriptrual "get out of jail free" card that will never happen according to God.

You gave me a good laugh!

If my understanding is incorrect on this and the events of Daniel 9:27 occur while I’m still here, then I would not abandon my faith since my faith was never in some kind of spiritual “get-out-of-jail free” card. It is in Jesus. Plenty of people in the times we live face tribulation and death for their faith whether they hold a pre-trib view or not!

That is why i bumped this thread because we needed to have an honest conversation about this. Things are accelerating and we cannot afford to pretend that when things are super hard, that there won't be people falling away because they expected to be raptured out of a situation and it didn't happen.
When things described in this clip happen and we are all still here, it will be safe to consider the theory debunked.

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568908488759181312

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

That's explosive! Talk about putting someone into a deep sleep! I hope the inquirer went back and read the text (Revelation 14:9-11) for himself. Someone should take McArthur to task on this.

You gave me a good laugh!

That is why i bumped this thread because we needed to have an honest conversation about this. Things are accelerating and we cannot afford to pretend that when things are super hard, that there won't be people falling away because they expected to be raptured out of a situation and it didn't happen.
When things described in this clip happen and we are all still here, it will be safe to consider the theory debunked.

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1568908488759181312

View attachment 81009

The “system” without the Beast is like a car without a driver. Until tha Antichrist steps in and strengthens a covenant between Israel and “the many” (whoever they turn out to be) for a period of 7 years, the clock will not have started ticking. Once that happens, if I’m still here, I would probably have to concede to a mid-trib / pre-wrath position, but that would have not one jot of effect on my faith.

 

[A Freeman]

From: https://hannahmichaels.wordpress.com/2021/04/22/daniels-70-weeks-prophecy-correctly-explained-at-last/ -

The following, oft-repeated passage, commonly referred to as “Daniel’s 70 weeks”, has been mistakenly interpreted by some to refer to the coming of the “antichrist” during the end-times, even though it specifically references The Messiah/Christ throughout, including events leading up to, during and after the life of Jesus.

If the passage is read properly, it is prophecy concerning Christ’s SEVEN-YEAR MISSION (God’s number of completeness is 7 NOT 3 ½), to preach the Gospel to the “House of Israel” and to the “House of Judah”, culminating in the crucifixion of Jesus on a WEDNESDAY.

Daniel 9:24-27
9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in Everlasting Righteousness, AND TO SEAL UP THE VISION AND PROPHECY, and to anoint The Most Holy [as King].
9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the Commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto THE MESSIAH THE PRINCE [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall MESSIAH be cut off, but not for himself (Matt. 15:24): and the people of THE PRINCE that shall come shall destroy the city and The Sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
9:27 And HE shall confirm The Covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation (the “Lake of Hell-Fire”), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

-------

THE MESSIAH THE PRINCE is quite obviously Prince Michael (Christ), Who is referred to repeatedly throughout the Book of Daniel as both the Messiah (Christ) and as the Prince; specifically the Great Prince.

Daniel 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the Scripture of Truth: and [there is] NONE that holdeth with me in these things, EXCEPT Michael your prince (Eno. 67:1; Rev. 5:3; 5; 9 & 12:7).

Does anyone really believe that Christ (THE Word) doesn't hold with Daniel that which is noted in the Scripture of Truth (The Word of God, aka the Bible)? Obviously Prince Michael is The Messiah/Christ, because Daniel 9:25 says so.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael [the Archangel] (Eno. 20:5; 36:1; 40:8; 58:1; 59:9; 57:1-2; 70:4; Rev. 12:7; Sura 2:98) stand up, the Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life] (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:15; 21:27; Sura 83:20).

Does anyone really believe that Christ won't be standing up for the people during the end-times, when He (Christ) told His Disciples He would be here to show them plainly about the Father (John 16:25) and explain the mystery of God (Rev. 10:7-10)?

There is no 7-year covenant with "the antichrist". How could anyone believe an antichrist makes promises to people, much less keeps them? God and His Messiah/Christ (The One Whom God Anointed) make Covenants, and are TRUE to their Covenants.

So if you're waiting for the devil to make a deal, or to hear the Charlie Daniel's band in your heads, you're going to be very disappointed, because it isn't going to happen.

The Covenant spoken about in Daniel 9:27 is the New Covenant, made with the "House of Israel", paid for and made possible by the sacrifice on the cross by The Messiah/Prince Michael (Christ, in the body of Jesus).

 

[Karlysymon]

The “system” without the Beast is like a car without a driver. Until tha Antichrist steps in and strengthens a covenant between Israel and “the many” (whoever they turn out to be) for a period of 7 years, the clock will not have started ticking. Once that happens, if I’m still here, I would probably have to concede to a mid-trib / pre-wrath position, but that would have not one jot of effect on my faith.

You probably won't like what i will say but hear me out....

The dispensationalist view is too Israel-centric and that is already suspect, for me. Everything revolves around Israel, it's creation, the temple being built and subsequently the antichrist storming into it etc. Lately, it seems to me that this particular eschatological view curiously and seamlessly syncs with NWO plans, such as the world government supposedly moving to Israel. I mean, Jacques Attali (Macron's adviser) publicly said this on tv.

Anyway, imagine if we all awoke tomorrow to find that the mark of the beast is rolling out and worship of the image is mandatory, heads of refuseniks are rolling....all the while there is no temple erected in Israel and no AC storming into it. I think that will be a shock to many christians.

That said, while there are these different eschatological views within Christendom, remember there are countless religions in the world whose adherents are also waiting for their respective prophectic fulfilments. How many times have we been told on this forum that the Christian bible is corrupted and cannot be trusted? A recent claim that has gained some traction is that the Rothschilds wrote the Book of Revelation as some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. There won't be disillusionment only within the Christian body but in the breadth of various religious persuasions when only God's truth is vindicated.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You probably won't like what i will say but hear me out....

The dispensationalist view is too Israel-centric and that is already suspect, for me. Everything revolves around Israel, it's creation, the temple being built and subsequently the antichrist storming into it etc. Lately, it seems to me that this particular eschatological view curiously and seamlessly syncs with NWO plans, such as the world government supposedly moving to Israel. I mean, Jacques Attali (Macron's adviser) publicly said this on tv.

Anyway, imagine if we all awoke tomorrow to find that the mark of the beast is rolling out and worship of the image is mandatory, heads of refuseniks are rolling....all the while there is no temple erected in Israel and no AC storming into it. I think that will be a shock to many christians.

That said, while there are these different eschatological views within Christendom, remember there are countless religions in the world whose adherents are also waiting for their respective prophectic fulfilments. How many times have we been told on this forum that the Christian bible is corrupted and cannot be trusted? A recent claim that has gained some traction is that the Rothschilds wrote the Book of Revelation as some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. There won't be disillusionment only within the Christian body but in the breadth of various religious persuasions when only God's truth is vindicated.

I love the Rothschilds conspiracy angle - it reminds me for all the world of Shift, Rishta Taarkan and Ginger the cat in The Last Battle.

Of course there will be a Rothschild angle - if you know something is coming and you can do nothing to prevent it, make it look like it’s your idea and try to put it on the floor!

#spiritualjudo

 

[Wigi]

@Red Sky at Morning
Is it far fetched to think we may have been born after the rapture? Let's say our History has been falsified and it took place during what we know as the black plague for example, what are the ressources in scriptures we can find that would argue against such a scenario? The whole point of the rapture is that no one knows the time when it's happening so thinking Israel can choose the moment it brings the rapture kinda denies those words, no? I'm just asking, i'm kinda revisiting my no more rapture stance again as the parable of the 10 virgins has been speaking to me a lot these days.

A recent claim that has gained some traction is that the Rothschilds wrote the Book of Revelation as some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

I find their claim disingenuous to be honest because once that is said, they never go on to explain as to why the Rothschilds and the rest of that 'WEF' terrorist group would write themselves as defeated in the end.

And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.” And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Revelation 18:2‭-‬4

They're not as mighty as we think they are, they didn't even succeed at establishing the full extent of the tyranny from that covid exercise, the likes of Attali knows it.
I'd also mention the fact that Psalms 33, their magic number if i'm correct , says this :

"The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect."
Psalms 33:10

So they may have the pen in hand but they're not in control of God's narrative and this is somewhat comforting.

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

Are you saying there was 3 and a half years between the resurrection and when exactly? When Stephen was martyred and the disciples scattered? When Saul/Paul was converted and became the apostle to the gentiles? When Peter was told nothing was unclean?

The beginning of the 70th week was the beginning of Jesus' ministry. Then in the middle of the week He was crucified which brought an end to sacrifices and offerings. Then as I posted there were three and a half years left in which the apostles preached the gospel to the Jews mainly. The end of the 70th week was when Stephen was martyred. Before Stephen was stoned, he gave a powerful message to the Jews who falsely accused him (Acts 7:2-53). It was an apt message to the Jews about their hardened hearts. In Acts 7:51-53 he said, "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.” Doesn't this sound like what Jesus told the Jews in Matthew 23:37-39?

After that the apostles began preaching the gospel to the Gentiles because the Jews had rejected Christ for the last time. God now counts people of all nationalities who accept and serve Him as spiritual Jews. They have become His chosen people, “heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:27-29). Spiritual Jews, of course, include Jewish people who individually accept and serve Jesus (Romans 2:28-29).

Where are you getting the dates from? Verses that show the dates please.

I didn't put any dates in my post nor are there no dates in the Bible. All the dates are based on history. Let me explain.

First, the 70 week prophecy is part of another prophecy given to Daniel in chapter 8 which included a prophecy about a time period in verse 14 which says, "And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.” Remember, in Bible prophecy a day symbolises a literal year. So the 2,300 days are 2,300 literal years. The sanctuary being cleansed refers to the heavenly sanctuary being cleansed just like the earthly sanctuary was cleansed on the Day of Atonement in ancient Israel. On that day God’s people were clearly identified as His and the record of their sins was removed. Those who clung to sin were cut off forever from Israel. Thus the camp was cleansed from sin. I post more on this subject in my thread about the heavenly sanctuary.

The angel Gabriel told Daniel, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end. ... I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation. ... Therefore seal up the vision, for it refers to many days in the future” (Daniel 8:17, 19, 26).

Then in chapter 9 the angel Gabriel came and began explaining the vision of chapter 8 to Daniel. When Gabriel reached the point of the 2,300 days, Daniel collapsed and was ill for some time. He regained his strength and resumed doing the king’s business but was concerned regarding the unexplained portion of the vision—the 2,300 days. Daniel prayed earnestly for his people, the Jews who were in captivity in Medo-Persia. He confessed his sins and pleaded with God to forgive His people (this is one of my favourite prayers in the Bible). While Daniel was still praying, the angel Gabriel touched him and stated that he had come to explain the rest of the vision described in Daniel chapter 8.

This is when Daniel is told that 70 weeks (490 literal years) was determined for his people the Jews. The 70-week prophecy is part of the 2300 day prophecy.

Daniel 9:25 gives us the starting point of the 70 weeks, “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times." Historically the decree to rebuild Jerusalem was issued in 457 bc. The Persian king Artaxerxes authorized God’s people (who were captive in Medo-Persia) to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city. The decree is found in Ezra 7.

The angel said that there would be 7 weeks (49 literal years, Jerusalem was rebuilt for 49 years) plus 62 weeks (434 literal years) adds up to 69 prophetic weeks, or 483 literal years would reach to the Messiah the Prince. Did it? Yes! Mathematical calculations show that moving ahead 483 years from 457 bc reaches ad 27. (Note: There is no year 0.)

In ad 27 Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit on the occasion of His baptism which marked the beginning of His ministry (Luke 3:21-23). This baptism marked the event in Daniel’s prophecy “until Messiah the Prince.” When Christ proclaimed, “The time is fulfilled” (Mark 1:15), He was referring to this part of the prophecy.

Daniel 9:27 then tells us, "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate.” Christ would confirm the covenant made with Israel for one prophetic week (7 years), but oblation (offerings) would cease in the middle of the week (three and a half years after ad 27). This mid-point brings us to ad 31—the year Christ was crucified. It was at His death that put an end to the system of offerings practised by Israel for so many years.

After Christ died, there were still three and half years remaining in the prophecy. These ended in ad 34 with the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7:59-8:4). At that time the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles from every nation. Paul, the very one who consented to the stoning of Stephen, became the apostle to the Gentiles. Israel ceased to be the recipient and channel of God’s truth.

Some people ask, "If Jesus died in the middle of the week, how could He confirm the covenant with many for the whole week as Daniel 9:27 says?" Jesus doesn't have to present physically to confirm the covenant for the rest of the three and a half years. After His ministry ended, Jesus confirmed the covenant through His disciples. He sent them first to the Jewish nation (Matthew 10:5-6) because His chosen people still had three and a half years remaining of their 490-year opportunity to repent as a nation.

Interesting.
So although the rapture doctrine has been popularized (though not invented) by zionists, they intend to deceive the Jews that they will have a chance to be saved during the tribulation.

The dispensationalists who invented the rapture doctrine were zionists. Yes, they deceive Jews that they will all be saved during the tribulation. According to them the Jews are still chosen and are therefore more special than Gentiles which is not biblical. In the New Covenant all those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour, submit and live according to His will are chosen. Plus God doesn't play favourites with us.

I say "have a chance" because not every pre-trib teacher teaches automatic Jewish salvation at all, though I am aware that some do.

It doesn't matter what they teach, the whole doctrine is false. They should stop teaching pre-trib all together and teach biblical truth with no error mixed in.

But in Matt24
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand ) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains

Matthew 24 is a dual prophecy. Dual prophecy means that because God is not linear in the way He does things, He can speak, and one prophecy can have different applications. In Matthew 24 Jesus foretold the signs of the second coming but He also covered several phases of history with one answer. The abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet that Jesus referred to happened back in the time of the Apostles.

What Jesus prophesied did happen with the destruction of Jerusalem. About 40 years after His ascension, the Roman armies did destroy Jerusalem including the temple and left it desolate. This abomination of desolation of Jerusalem as prophesied by Daniel came as a result of the people rejecting Messiah the prince. A careful study of Daniel 9:25-27 as we've been doing, will show this to be the case. In verse 25 Messiah is promised to Israel and the city's restoration is also predicted. But then, ominously, all is prophesied for doom again. Verse 26 speaks of Messiah being killed by His own people and of how this act would cause their city and sanctuary to be desolated once again.

After the crucifixion the disciples were not told to flee to the mountains. And after the resurrection they were told to stay in Jerusalem until Pentecost.

No, they were not told to flee the mountains because that wasn't when Jerusalem was destroyed, that happened three decades later.

Also Dan 11
31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

If Jesus stopping the sacrifice system by his one time perfect sacrifice is what is referred to in Dan9:25-27, is this reference to a different abomination of desolation? Clearly these verses are not referring to Jesus.

In the Bible there are three abominations of desolation. There was an abomination of desolation in Daniel's day by the Babylonians, then the second one by the Romans (discussed above) then there is a third one (the final one) referenced in Daniel 8:13; 11:31; and 12:11 which will involve the whole earth. These verses predict the formation and ascension of power of the Papacy, aka the beast and mystery Babylon in Revelation.

Not to mention that there is a historical application to the verses, both before Jesus with Antiochus Epiphanes and after, when the temple was destroyed (which was an appropriate time to flee to the mountains, and from what I have read, the reason why many believers survived). But my point is the historical applications indicate that the abomination of desolation is a bad thing.

The teaching that the abomination of desolation was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes does not harmonise with biblical doctrine at all. He does not meet the specifications of abominations of desolation in the Bible. I will mention one specification which is that the abominations of desolations always involved the complete destruction of the temple which was the centre of worship because of the Jews' disobedience and idolatry. Antiochus Epiphanes did not destroy the temple in Jerusalem.

During the destruction of Jerusalem God's people did flee to the mountains. The first siege of Jerusalem, under the Roman army, happened under General Cestius. He surrounded Jerusalem with the Roman armies but when it seemed he was going to attack, he unexpectedly withdrew his forces. The first siege which was temporary was abandoned and that was the sign for the followers of Christ to flee to the mountains (Luke 21:20-21). Because of that not one Christian died in the horrible destruction of Jerusalem. All the predictions that Christ gave concerning the destruction of Jerusalem were fulfilled to the letter.

Yes abominations of desolation are very bad news but one more is to come at the end times. This time it will involve the whole earth. There will be no physical temple of course. Paul called God’s church the temple of God.

The issue is that in the Bible sometimes a day means a day (like Jesus being dead three literal days), and sometimes it means 1000 years (2Pet3:8).
How do we figure the 1260 days mentioned in Revelation are years?

Jesus being dead for three days was literal nor was symbolic/figurative language used for the events of His death and resurrection. A day symbolises a literal year in biblical prophetic symbolic language.

2 Peter 3:8 is not symbolic language. From verse 1 - 8 of 2 Peter 3, Peter is talking about how God is not slack in His promises to us. It may seem to us like God is taking long to return but we are only looking at things from a human perspective. From God’s perspective, there is no delay. The way we conceive time is different to how God conceives it. In fact, Peter says that extra time has been granted us because God who is is patient and long suffering does not wish that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9). The extra time is to provide opportunity for many to repent and come to Him.

Yes. Now if a Christian DOES search and study the Bible that would mean there is nothing to be concerned about if there does not appear to be completely irrefutable proof of a doctrine.

If a Christian searches the Bible prayerfully and earnestly everyday, God will lead them to the truth of His Word or to someone who will point them to the truth of His Word. Whichever way God sees fit.

Regardless if someone is pre-trib or not I would encourage them to study the Bible for themselves. Sadly, many won't. So then if they are going to go by what their pastor teaches only, it appears to be a matter of chance, did they wind up at the "correct" church.

Absolutely. We should always study the Bible as long as we don't approach the Word of God to confirm our doctrines but to let God show us His truth. That's why we should always pray before we study the Bible.

No one winds up in the right church by chance. And there is one now and until Jesus returns as there has always been since creation.

No, of course not. If they did they would study the Bible diligently. But there are some that do, and they believe that is what the Bible teaches, not just heasay from a pastor.

That is because that is what was taught to them. They study the Bible believing that is the truth and are not looking for a different interpretation.

 

[TokiEl]

Doesn't this verse by itself end any and all pre-trib (or mid-trib) rapture fantasies?

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and THEN he shall reward EVERY man according to his WORKS.

This verse is even better...


Matthew 24 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

I am put in mind of going looking for a pack of biscuits my wife told me was in the pantry. I knew exactly What they looked like as I had seen the packet many times. I can remember a shouted conversation up the stairs while she was drying her hair, where she told me they were there and I flatly contradicted that idea! After a couple of minutes, she came down and staid, pointing “there!”. Sure enough, they were… right in front of me in a packet I wasn’t expecting!

My point is that we can be so sure we have particular things figured out we can’t see what is right in front of us.

I have had a few situations like that for sure, both literally like that and while searching the Bible.
That's why even though I prefer paper, i find it helpful to have a searchable digital copy as well.

Just looking into the 1260 days [years] from the Adventist position….

Understanding the 1,260-year Prophecy | Adventist World

A legal solution

www.adventistworld.org

Interesting!
I wonder, could the 1260 have a double application, both of years and of literal days? Things in the Bible do sometimes appear to have multiple applications, and history repeats itself.

I don't want to upset anybody, but since we are discussing the mark i thought this was relevant.
The adventist church (as an organization, not saying all individual members) appears to be all in on the pandemic/v@x narrative.

The Psychology of Vaccine Hesitancy | Adventist World

Can the church help? Some tips on how to converse with those who speak against COVID-19 vaccination.

www.adventistworld.org

How are we to understand vaccine hesitancy? Might the church play a constructive role with its members and the surrounding communities in decreasing the suspicion and even countering the misinformation?
...
There is nothing new about people being hesitant about medical treatments and vaccines. The pandemic, however, has made it imperative that most of us get vaccinated to achieve herd immunity.
...
Disinformation, which is strategically and deliberately spread false information; misinformation, which is false information, not necessarily shared with intent to mislead; and mistrust, which denotes more than the lack of trust but suspicion of ill intent, commonly referred to as “conspiracy theories” — these fuel fear, promote avoidance, and become the “rationale” to be hesitant about the vaccination process. Conspiracy beliefs are “attempts to explain the ultimate cause of an event … as a secret plot by a covert alliance of powerful individuals or organizations, rather than as an overt activity or natural occurrence. It can be difficult to persuasively present evidence to refute these types of ideas, especially because experts are often seen as part of the conspiracy, and new pieces of contrary evidence can be rationalized into an existing narrative.”4
...
Could the church help in addressing vaccination hesitancy, misinformation, and even addressing conspiracy beliefs? In fact, the organized church and members are already helping by providing written statements and information pieces, disseminating accurate information, and providing vaccination sites. Could the church help by more directly addressing the fears/avoidance of vaccine hesitation? I believe we could.
...
Post pictures on social media of church leaders from all ethnic groups in your community taking the vaccine. Open your church to be a vaccination site, especially if located in a poor part of your community.
...
Use the pulpit to speak about the importance of getting vaccinated, framing it as an expression of caring for others as part of our Christian duty to protect the community. Frame the message in the context of the church’s theology of health.
...
public health leader from the World Health Organization came to Loma Linda University to participate.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Someone should take McArthur to task on this.

He's got a lot of followers, a lot of lawyers and masonic connections.

However, he has made a public stand against many of the culture war elements, and if i remember correctly he's anti-v@x and was denying existence of c0vid, so he's earned himself plenty of supporters.

In my opinion he is controlled opposition. The libs really don't like him.
This site is a long read, but it goes into more about john mac arthur, for anybody who is interested.

JOHN MACARTHUR: FREEMASON - WATCH UNTO PRAYER

And this is a forum where many of his deeds are discussed.

John Macarthur Cult Watch Forum

johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com

Welcome to the John Macarthur Cult Watch Forum. Watchman Wakes in Vain fully exposes John Fullerton Macarthur. Examine evidence that Macarthur is a Jew, a Freemason, and an intelligence operative who was born into an elite Masonic lineage which included his Great Grandfather, Thomas Fullerton, for whom he's named and who was the Grand Master of the Grand Masonic Lodge of Canada. Macarthur and his church leaders are Jewish and his spiritual mentor was Rabbi Charles Feinberg. His financier, Lorena Jaeb, was a Governor of the treasonous Council for National Policy. Macarthur's teachings are heretical; he denies the power of the blood of Jesus Christ and with his "Lordship Salvation," the gospel of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. He is even now teaching that taking the Mark of the Beast is OK and forgiveable! Macarthur had a close association with 1960's black civil rights radicals which led to his presence at the Lorraine Motel on the day Martin Luther King was assassinated and to his arrest a short while later! Macarthur's Masters University and Masters Seminary are both on probation as Macarthur leads his own personal crime family (see his son and son-in-law's nefarious activities). Macarthur is on TV and on 1000 radio stations daily. He has published hundreds of books (none of which he's written) including his own bible. Macarthur is dangerous and is now preparing his "left behind" followers to worship the Antichrist and to take his Mark. Be wary and watchful of this heretical hireling as he continues to deceive millions to Hell through his vast international "ministry

 

[TokiEl]

I don't want to upset anybody, but since we are discussing the mark i thought this was relevant.
The adventist church (as an organization, not saying all individual members) appears to be all in on the pandemic/v@x narrative.

The Psychology of Vaccine Hesitancy | Adventist World

Can the church help? Some tips on how to converse with those who speak against COVID-19 vaccination.

www.adventistworld.org

Bible the Book of books

John 14 5“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?” 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

Rev 6 1Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say in a thunderous voice, “Come!” 2So I looked and saw a white horse, and its rider held a bow. And he was given a crown, and he rode out to overcome and conquer.



The greek word for bow is toxon and the latin word for crown is corona. So is this trying to say that corona was given so he could conquer with toxin ?

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Is it far fetched to think we may have been born after the rapture? Let's say our History has been falsified and it took place during what we know as the black plague for example, what are the ressources in scriptures we can find that would argue against such a scenario?

I know this wasnt directed at me, but i wanted to give some of my thoughts.

We (my husband and i) had this horrible thought one day, what if we missed the rapture? What if it happened back before we were Christians?
I immediately got to internet searching, and most things focus on either there is no such thing as the rapture, or Paul said that Jesus hadnt returned yet.

But i wanted to know about the time after Paul was done writing but before modern recorded history. Of even if it was modern, if it's possible to scrub things from the internet, how much easier before the internet.

I stumbled across this site, which says that Jesus returned once in the sky with his angels before the destruction of the temple. Supposedly it was recorded by extra biblical sources. I have put Josephus' Antiquitites of the Jews on my reading list, but i have not checked out this guy's sources yet.

Jesus, the Son of Man, was LITERALLY Seen in the Clouds in A.D. 66 | Revelation Revolution

An artistic depiction of the army in the clouds in A.D. 66.
The first-century Jewish historian Josephus describes a heavenly army in the clouds much like the army Jesus leads in Revelation 19:11-14. This event is also recorded by other historians. The first-century pagan historian Tacitus also mentions this event: “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.”2 Pseudo-Hegesippus also describes the coming of Christ on the clouds with His mighty angels at that time when he writes, “A certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed, and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen in the clouds chariots in the clouds and armed battle arrays by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded.”3 The medieval Jewish historian Sepher Yosippon expounds upon this angelic army in the sky of A.D. 66 by saying, “Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire.”4 The parallels between these three accounts and Revelation 19 are striking. However, in Yosippon’s account one can see how 2 Thessalonians 1:7 was explicitly and LITERALLY fulfilled in A.D. 66: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”
...
Perhaps you might now be asking yourself, “Was the parousia in A.D. 66 or in A.D. 70?” This is the wrong question to ask. Parousia is a Greek word meaning presence or coming. Parousia is a word used to denote the arrival of a conquering general, emperor or high-ranking official into a city for an extended stay oftentimes for several months or years before often returning to the capital city, the seat of his throne. For example, Nero Caesar’s Parousia in Greece lasted for years. Nero arrived in Greece in A.D. 66 and stayed until late A.D. 67 or early A.D. 68. The word connotes a coming and an extended presence or stay often followed by a subsequent departure. When people think of the parousia, they often picture a one-time, brief appearance of Christ on the clouds. However, this term generally connotes a coming and an extended stay or presence as is illustrated by the way Parousia is also used in Philippians 2:12. Thus Jesus’ second coming or Parousia also appears to be a coming with an extended stay or presence.

As is implied by the Greek word often translated “second coming” in the New Testament, the second coming or Parousia was a coming with a lengthy stay. Thus I believe that the Parousia or second coming began at the very start of the Jewish War in Iyyar of A.D. 66 when the Jews first began their revolt against Rome and continued until the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of its Temple in A.D. 70. Recall that it was also at the very start of the Jewish revolt, Iyyar of A.D. 66, that Jesus was seen approaching Jerusalem on the clouds of heaven with His mighty angels. This Parousia (presence or coming) then continued until A.D. 70 at the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple.
The fact that Jesus was to come in A.D. 66 at the start of the Jewish War rather than arriving in A.D. 70 at the end of the war is also implied by the fact that Jesus said He was to “come on the clouds” during the Parousia. The fact that Jesus says that He was going to “come on the clouds” is an allusion to the Old Testament when God had come on the clouds in judgment on nations in the past as was the case, for example, when God came on the clouds in judgment on Egypt with the Assyrians and Babylonians in Old Testament history (Isaiah 19). The fact that Jesus implied that He was going to come on the clouds suggests that He was also going to come in judgment. And if Jesus was going to come in judgment this implies that He was to come when the judgment began, not after it was already over. God judged Jerusalem and apostate Israel during its first-century war with Rome from A.D. 66 to A.D. 70. Thus if Jesus was going to come on the clouds in judgment on Israel one would expect Him to come in A.D. 66 when that judgment began, not first arrive at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 when this judgment was believed to be over.

In short, i am not endorsing this guy's preterist interpretation, but found it interesting regardless.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

The beginning of the 70th week was the beginning of Jesus' ministry. Then in the middle of the week He was crucified which brought an end to sacrifices and offerings. Then as I posted there were three and a half years left in which the apostles preached the gospel to the Jews mainly. The end of the 70th week was when Stephen was martyred. Before Stephen was stoned, he gave a powerful message to the Jews who falsely accused him (Acts 7:2-53). It was an apt message to the Jews about their hardened hearts. In Acts 7:51-53 he said, "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.” Doesn't this sound like what Jesus told the Jews in Matthew 23:37-39?

After that the apostles began preaching the gospel to the Gentiles because the Jews had rejected Christ for the last time. God now counts people of all nationalities who accept and serve Him as spiritual Jews. They have become His chosen people, “heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:27-29). Spiritual Jews, of course, include Jewish people who individually accept and serve Jesus (Romans 2:28-29).

I didn't put any dates in my post nor are there no dates in the Bible. All the dates are based on history. Let me explain.

I agree that Stephen's sermon was very reminiscent of Jesus'.
To that I would add on that the stoning of Stephen was set off by him quoting Jesus' words to the high priest.

Mark14:62

61But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 63Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

Acts 7:56

55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

Anyway, I agree that after the stoning of Stephen the Jews in Jerusalem were no longer the focus of the ministry. But rather than immediately go to the gentiles weren't the Jews of the diaspora the next focus?
Acts 11:19 tells us

19Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only

Does the eunuch of Acts 8:27-8:38 (who was reading Isaiah, so even though he was ethnically Ethiopian was he already a jewish convert) being taught by Philip indicate that the focus is now gentiles? Or was it the centurion's vision in Acts 10 that would indicate a gentile focus?
As far as I can see there is no clear dividing line, is what I'm saying. I agree that the focus stops being Jerusalem, but it appears to be a slow gradual shift to gentiles, not a sudden change. It is a reasonable assumption that the ministry to the Jews went on for 3.5 years between the ressurection and Stephen's martyrdom, and I can see how you calculated the dates using Daniel, but we are not explicitly told that was the length of the ministry.
I will keep this in mind though. I had not thought of that before.

It was at His death that put an end to the system of offerings practised by Israel for so many years.

The problem is, while believers may have stopped sacrificing, there is no indication that Jews who did not believe stopped sacrificing until they were forced to at the time of the temple's destruction.

The dispensationalists who invented the rapture doctrine were zionists.

No, it was popularized and spread by Darby and Scofield in the modern era, but variations of the rapture doctrine have existed since the early church days a couple generations removed from the apostles. Since before Nicaea and a paganized form of Christianity becoming state religion.

By this statement I am not saying it is a correct doctrine, i am just saying that it is older than that.

one prophecy can have different applications

I agree.

Epiphanes did not destroy the temple in Jerusalem.

But he did sit jn the temple and declare himself to be God. I disagree that Dan11 does not apply to Epiphanes.

Yes abominations of desolation are very bad news but one more is to come at the end times. This time it will involve the whole earth. There will be no physical temple of course. Paul called God’s church the temple of God

So rather than a physical temple being destroyed what would be made desolate?

No one winds up in the right church by chance. And there is one now and until Jesus returns as there has always been since creation.

I take it you don't believe in the "church ages" doctrine, and that we are now in the lukewarm Laodicean era, in which there is no true church left and Jesus stands outside knocking to be let in?

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches

I do want to sincerely thank you for taking the time to patiently answer all my questions. You've given me much to think about in regards to my Bible studies.

 

[Maldarker]