Did Jesus Exist? All Scholars Agree He “Certainly” Existed

Todd

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I remember the first time i met Todd.. then i went to war with him. :)

Tarek asked me to back off. I still have the email of it as pm's used to get email notices and gmail has a bad habit of logging everything.

View attachment 76480

I like things like this, ...nostalgic.
That is a blast from the past! FWIW I have not become a Muslim, though I do not consider it an insult that Tarek implied it. I repsect Tarek and miss my conversations with him. I do not recall the subject that caused you to "go to war with me"....just curious if you remember. Either way I don't recall ever holding a grudge or anyting with you!

My thoughts and convictions on many things continualy evolve. Any one seeking God, Muslim, Christian or Jew, ought to be able to say that. If anyone of us believes we know the whole complete truth in this lifetime we are deceiving ourselves.

I still believe Jesus is the Messiah but that he is not part of a triune God as presented by the Chrsitian Trinity tradition. I still believe in Univerisal Reconcilliation. And yes I still have my doubts about Paul, but I still read the books that he wrote but spit out the sticks and weeds that don't line up with the God's words or Jesus' words.
 

Todd

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I find the actual message interesting. “Paul is Antichrist” etc. No wonder there is such a spiritual stalemate in such discussions. The pattern of interaction becomes clearer when you understand the significance of “commanding the right and forbidding the wrong”. When you realise that this is something certain strict Muslims have to do (or risk hellfire) it does at least give some empathy for their position.

Btw - Todd was close to being a Unitarian Universalist. The Christian spin is a doctrine called Universal Reconciliation and the only way a Christian could hold that position would be to excise the writings of Paul from the NT.
Not quite RED! I was never close to becoming a Unitarian. I still believe Jesus is the only way to the Father! I just believe that God will provide a way for every single soul to come to the Father through Jesus whether in this age or the age to come. And you are completely wrong about the position of Paul. It was in fact a verse written by Paul that started by journey to UR.

1 Corinthians 15:20-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Not quite RED! I was never close to becoming a Unitarian. I still believe Jesus is the only way to the Father! I just believe that God will provide a way for every single soul to come to the Father through Jesus whether in this age or the age to come. And you are completely wrong about the position of Paul. It was in fact a verse written by Paul that started by journey to UR.

1 Corinthians 15:20-22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I apologise if I misrepresented your view Todd - Jesus talked more about Hell than anyone. The OT has more of a veiled view of eternal life to the degree that Pharisees and Sadducees disputed over it. If all shall be made alive (ie resurrected) it does not automatically follow that all shall be resurrected to eternal joy.

Perhaps the implications of the reality of immortality is captured well in C.S. Lewis’s incisive quote:
There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors. This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of that kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously - no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption.
C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory

The above quote is just an echo of the words of Jesus in John 5:29-31…

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.​
 

Todd

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I apologise if I misrepresented your view Todd - Jesus talked more about Hell than anyone.
He may have...and I have never dismissed the reality of hell. I just simply disagree with the Christian tradition that hell is eternal torment. God has a a good and perfect purpose for everything. ET has no good and perfect purpose, other than vengeance. Eternal vengeance is not consistent with the character of God.

Isaiah 34:8 ESV / 48 helpful votes
For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.

God's vengeance is finite in duration, not eternal.

NIV: Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.

NLT: Rev 15:1 Then I saw in heaven another marvelous event of great significance. Seven angels were holding the seven last plagues, which would bring God’s wrath to completion.

Amplified: Rev 15:1 THEN I saw another wonder (sign, token, symbol) in heaven, great and marvelous [warning of events of ominous significance]: There were seven angels bringing seven plagues (afflictions, calamities), which are the last, for with them God's wrath (indignation) is completely expressed [reaches its climax and is ended]

For even God's vengeance as terrible as it may seem, has a good and noble purpose.
Ezekiel 25:17
I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.
 

Daze

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That is a blast from the past! FWIW I have not become a Muslim, though I do not consider it an insult that Tarek implied it. I repsect Tarek and miss my conversations with him. I do not recall the subject that caused you to "go to war with me"....just curious if you remember. Either way I don't recall ever holding a grudge or anyting with you!

My thoughts and convictions on many things continualy evolve. Any one seeking God, Muslim, Christian or Jew, ought to be able to say that. If anyone of us believes we know the whole complete truth in this lifetime we are deceiving ourselves.

I still believe Jesus is the Messiah but that he is not part of a triune God as presented by the Chrsitian Trinity tradition. I still believe in Univerisal Reconcilliation. And yes I still have my doubts about Paul, but I still read the books that he wrote but spit out the sticks and weeds that don't line up with the God's words or Jesus' words.
Sorry, i don't remember our disagreement. It was many years ago. Odds are i misunderstood something you said.

Any practicing Muslim calling you one is not an insult. I say practicing because many today think their skin color / culture makes them Muslim. But they have no actual connection to the religion. Others claim Islam but openly reject large parts of it.

I'm sure you know that anyone who worships God alone and accepts his prophets, such as a Unitarian Christian, is essentially a Muslim already.
We believe all prophets were Muslim. Including Adam. Because there has only ever been one message. Submission to God alone, without partners, is the only path to success.

Jesus is also the messiah in Islam and we await his return. But I"m sure you already know this.


However, I do believe some people have the complete truth. Especially the awilya. Friends of God basically. Those whom God himself has become their eyes with which they see. Their ears with which they hear.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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He may have...and I have never dismissed the reality of hell. I just simply disagree with the Christian tradition that hell is eternal torment. God has a a good and perfect purpose for everything. ET has no good and perfect purpose, other than vengeance. Eternal vengeance is not consistent with the character of God.

Isaiah 34:8 ESV / 48 helpful votes
For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.

God's vengeance is finite in duration, not eternal.

NIV: Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.

NLT: Rev 15:1 Then I saw in heaven another marvelous event of great significance. Seven angels were holding the seven last plagues, which would bring God’s wrath to completion.

Amplified: Rev 15:1 THEN I saw another wonder (sign, token, symbol) in heaven, great and marvelous [warning of events of ominous significance]: There were seven angels bringing seven plagues (afflictions, calamities), which are the last, for with them God's wrath (indignation) is completely expressed [reaches its climax and is ended]

For even God's vengeance as terrible as it may seem, has a good and noble purpose.
Ezekiel 25:17
I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.
You know I don’t agree with you but you know I’m not going to be rude to you about it either.

Jesus says “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” I think if we are both pointing to Jesus as “the Door”, we are in agreement.

p.a. You might like this old song from around the time I first believed…

 

Maldarker

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So just to be clear, the assertion within shariah law of “commanding the right and forbidding the wrong” and its outworking as described in this discussion is incorrect?



COMMANDING RIGHT AND FORBIDDING WRONG IN ISLAMIC THOUGHT

What kind of duty do we have to try to stop other people doing wrong? The question is intelligible in just about any culture, but few of them seek to answer it in a rigorous fashion. The most striking exception is found in the Islamic tradition, where ‘commanding right and forbidding wrong’ is a central moral tenet already mentioned in the Koran. As a historian of Islam whose research has ranged widely over space and time, Michael Cook is well placed to interpret this complex yet fas- cinating subject. His book, which represents the first sustained attempt to map the history of Islamic reflection on this obligation, covers the origins of Muslim thinking about ‘forbidding wrong’, the relevant doctrinal developments over the centuries in all the major Islamic sects and schools, and its significance in Sunn ̄ı and Sh ̄ıite thought today. In this way, the book contributes to the understanding of contemporary Islamic politics and ideology and raises fundamental questions for the comparative study of ethics.

MICHAEL COOK is Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern Studies in the Department of Near Eastern Studies, Princeton University. His publications include Population Pressure in Rural Anatolia, 1450–1600 (1972), Early Muslim Dogma (1981) and most recently The Koran: A Very Short Introduction (2000).

Who determines it? The religious leaders?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Who determines it? The religious leaders?
Well, in the same spirit as BLM, black lives do indeed matter just a right is better than wrong, but the practice and philosophy of the BLM movement is different to the aspiration.

In the same way, “Commanding the right, forbidding the wrong” sounds honourable enough, but the way it plays out is not as good as it sounds…

The source for this is:


Reliance of the Traveller
Revised Edition

The Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law 'Umdat al-Salik by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1368) in Arabic with Facing English Text, Commentary, and Appendices Edited and Translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller

amana publications
Beltsville, Maryland U.S.A

http://www.catheyallison.com/Reliance_of_the_Traveller.pdf
 
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Maldarker

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Well, in the same spirit as BLM, black lives do indeed matter just a right is better than wrong, but the practice and philosophy of the BLM movement is different to the aspiration.

In the same way, “Commanding the right, forbidding the wrong” sounds honourable enough, but the way it plays out is not as good as it sounds…
Exactly have someone again telling you what THEY think is right or wrong....sounds like a cope out. Sounds like the germans listening to hitler but he was such a good speaker ad nauseum just another excuse to play victim not take SELF responsibility
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Why this is important in Islam:

“(In Qudara Maqdisi) One should know that commanding the right and forbidding the wrong is the most important fundamental of the religion, and is the mission that Allah sent the prophets to fulfill. If it were folded up and put away, religion itself would vanish, dissolution appear, and whole lands come to ruin.”

^ So it’s a big deal….

The eight degrees of censure outlined in “The Reliance of the Traveller” (some may be a familiar pattern to forum regulars!)


q5.1 - KNOWLEDGE OF THE WRONG ACT

q5.2 - The first degree consists of knowing the wrong act. One should not eavesdrop at another's house in order to hear the sounds of musical instruments, or try to catch the scent of wine, or feel for an object concealed beneath someone's shirt to see if it is a flute, or ask a person's neighbours to see what he is doing. But if two upright witnesses (def: 024.4) come and inform one that someone is drinking, one may enter his house and take him to task.

q5.2 - EXPLAINING THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG

q5.3 - The second degree consists of explaining that an act is Wrong, since an ignorant person will often do something he does not know is blameworthy, but will stop when he finds out. So one must explain it politely, saying, for example:
“people are not born scholars; we were unfamiliar with many things in Sacred law until scholars mentioned them to us. Perhaps there are not many in your hometown, and thus lead up to it diplomatically so the person understands without being offended. To avoid the evil of remaining silent when there is something wrong, only to commit the evil of offending a Muslim when able not to, is like washing away blood with urine.

q5.4 - FORBIDDING THE ACT VERBALLY

The third degree of severity is to prohibit the act by admonition, advice, and making the other fear Allah, mentioning the hadiths of divine punishments for it and reminding the person how the early Muslims behaved, all of which should be done with sympathy and kindness, not harshness or anger. The great danger here which one must beware of is that a learned person explaining that something is wrong may be proud of his knowledge and gloat over the lowliness of the other's ignorance, which is like saving someone from a fire by casting oneself into it. It is ignorant in the extreme, a deep disgrace, and a delusion from the Devil. The touchstone and test for this is to ask oneself whether one would prefer the censured person to stop at his own or another's behest, or whether one would prefer to forbid him oneself. If reproving him is difficult and weighs upon one. and one would prefer that somcone elsc do it, then one should proceed. for religion is the motive. But if it is otherwise, then one is following mere personal caprice and using the censuring of others as a means to display one's merit, and one should fear Allah and censure oneself first.

q5.5 - CENSURING WITH HARSH WORDS

The fourth degree of severity consists of reviling the person and bearing down on him with sharp, harsh words. One does not resort to this degree unless one is unable to prevent the person by politeness, and he shows he wants to persist or mocks one's admonitions and advice. Reviling him does not mean vulgarity and lies, but rather saying "You degenerate." You idiot." You ignoramus," Do you not fear Allah?" and so forth. Allah Most High quotes Ibrahim (upon whom be peace) saying: "Fie on you and what you worship apart from Allah! Can you not think?" (Koran 21:67).

q5.6 - RIGHTING THE WRONG BY HAND

The fifth degree consists of changing the blameworthy thing with one's hand, such as by breaking musical instruments, pouring out wine, or turning someone out of a house wrongfully appropriated. There are two rules for this degree:

(1) not to do so when one can get the person to do it himself, i.e. if one can get somcone to leave the land he has unjustly taken, one should not drag or push him from it:

(2) and to break the instruments, for example, just enough to obviate their being used for disobedience and no more, or to he careful not to break the bottles when pouring out wine. if one cannot manage except by throwing rocks at the bottles or the like, then one may do so and is not obliged to cover the damages.

If it be wondered whether one may break the botties or drag someone by the foot out of a wrongfully appropriated house to create fear, as an object lesson to others, the answer is that this is for leaders alone and is not permissible for private individuals because of the obscurity of the decision-making criteria in the matter.

q5.7 - INTIMIDATION

The sixth degree is threatening and intimidation, such as by saying. "Stop this or I'll- when possible this should precede actually hitting the person. The rule for this level is not to make a threat that one cannot carry out, such as saying "'or l'Il seize your house," or "take your wifc hostage, because if one says this seriously, it is unlawful, and if not serious, then one is lying.

q5.8 - ASSAULT

The seventh degree is to directly hit or kick the person. or similar measures that do not involve weapons. This is permissible for private individuals provided it is necessary, and that one confines oneself to the minimum needed to stop the reprchensible action and nothing more. When the action has been stopped, one refrains from doing anything further.

q5.9 - FORCE OF ARMS

The eighth degree is when one is unable to censure the act by oneself and requires the armed assistance of others. Sometimes the person being reproved may also get people to assist him, and a Skirmish may ensue, so the soundest legal opinion is that this degree requires authorization from the caliph (def: 025). since it leads to strife and the outbreak of civil discord. Another view is that there is no need for the caliph's permission.
 
Last edited:

Daze

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Why this is important in Islam:

“(In Qudara Maqdisi) One should know that commanding the right and forbidding the wrong is the most important fundamental of the religion, and is the mission that Allah sent the prophets to fulfill. If it were folded up and put away, religion itself would vanish, dissolution appear, and whole lands come to ruin.”

^ So it’s a big deal….

The eight degrees of censure outlined in “The Reliance of the Traveller” (some may be a familiar pattern to forum regulars!)


q5.1 - KNOWLEDGE OF THE WRONG ACT

q5.2 - The first degree consists of knowing the wrong act. One should not eavesdrop at another's house in order to hear the sounds of musical instruments, or try to catch the scent of wine, or feel for an object concealed beneath someone's shirt to see if it is a flute, or ask a person's neighbours to see what he is doing. But if two upright witnesses (def: 024.4) come and inform one that someone is drinking, one may enter his house and take him to task.

q5.2 - EXPLAINING THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG

q5.3 - The second degree consists of explaining that an act is Wrong, since an ignorant person will often do something he does not know is blameworthy, but will stop when he finds out. So one must explain it politely, saying, for example:
“people are not born scholars; we were unfamiliar with many things in Sacred law until scholars mentioned them to us. Perhaps there are not many in your hometown, and thus lead up to it diplomatically so the person understands without being offended. To avoid the evil of remaining silent when there is something wrong, only to commit the evil of offending a Muslim when able not to, is like washing away blood with urine.

q5.4 - FORBIDDING THE ACT VERBALLY

The third degree of severity is to prohibit the act by admonition, advice, and making the other fear Allah, mentioning the hadiths of divine punishments for it and reminding the person how the early Muslims behaved, all of which should be done with sympathy and kindness, not harshness or anger. The great danger here which one must beware of is that a learned person explaining that something is wrong may be proud of his knowledge and gloat over the lowliness of the other's ignorance, which is like saving someone from a fire by casting oneself into it. It is ignorant in the extreme, a deep disgrace, and a delusion from the Devil. The touchstone and test for this is to ask oneself whether one would prefer the censured person to stop at his own or another's behest, or whether one would prefer to forbid him oneself. If reproving him is difficult and weighs upon one. and one would prefer that somcone elsc do it, then one should proceed. for religion is the motive. But if it is otherwise, then one is following mere personal caprice and using the censuring of others as a means to display one's merit, and one should fear Allah and censure oneself first.

q5.5 - CENSURING WITH HARSH WORDS

The fourth degree of severity consists of reviling the person and bearing down on him with sharp, harsh words. One does not resort to this degree unless one is unable to prevent the person by politeness, and he shows he wants to persist or mocks one's admonitions and advice. Reviling him does not mean vulgarity and lies, but rather saying "You degenerate." You idiot." You ignoramus," Do you not fear Allah?" and so forth. Allah Most High quotes Ibrahim (upon whom be peace) saying: "Fie on you and what you worship apart from Allah! Can you not think?" (Koran 21:67).

q5.6 - RIGHTING THE WRONG BY HAND

The fifth degree consists of changing the blameworthy thing with one's hand, such as by breaking musical instruments, pouring out wine, or turning someone out of a house wrongfully appropriated. There are two rules for this degree:

(1) not to do so when one can get the person to do it himself, i.e. if one can get somcone to leave the land he has unjustly taken, one should not drag or push him from it:

(2) and to break the instruments, for example, just enough to obviate their being used for disobedience and no more, or to he careful not to break the bottles when pouring out wine. if one cannot manage except by throwing rocks at the bottles or the like, then one may do so and is not obliged to cover the damages.

If it be wondered whether one may break the botties or drag someone by the foot out of a wrongfully appropriated house to create fear, as an object lesson to others, the answer is that this is for leaders alone and is not permissible for private individuals because of the obscurity of the decision-making criteria in the matter.

q5.7 - INTIMIDATION

The sixth degree is threatening and intimidation, such as by saying. "Stop this or I'll- when possible this should precede actually hitting the person. The rule for this level is not to make a threat that one cannot carry out, such as saying "'or l'Il seize your house," or "take your wifc hostage, because if one says this seriously, it is unlawful, and if not serious, then one is lying.

q5.8 - ASSAULT

The seventh degree is to directly hit or kick the person. or similar measures that do not involve weapons. This is permissible for private individuals provided it is necessary, and that one confines oneself to the minimum needed to stop the reprchensible action and nothing more. When the action has been stopped, one refrains from doing anything further.

q5.9 - FORCE OF ARMS

The eighth degree is when one is unable to censure the act by oneself and requires the armed assistance of others. Sometimes the person being reproved may also get people to assist him, and a Skirmish may ensue, so the soundest legal opinion is that this degree requires authorization from the caliph (def: 025). since it leads to strife and the outbreak of civil discord. Another view is that there is no need for the caliph's permission.
If we went through this thread, would we find more posts of you offering proof that Jesus existed? Or would the posts of you attacking Islam be more abundant here Red?

I guess we could count them but i think we all know that's redundant.

Its funny, how non-Muslims think they know Islam better then actual Muslims.



Never will the Jews or Christians be pleased with you, until you follow their faith. (2:102 Quran)


I do believe that is the crux of it. But one would think you'd be more worried about Christians then Muslims?

christianity dying.png
 

TempestOfTempo

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Why this is important in Islam:

“(In Qudara Maqdisi) One should know that commanding the right and forbidding the wrong is the most important fundamental of the religion, and is the mission that Allah sent the prophets to fulfill. If it were folded up and put away, religion itself would vanish, dissolution appear, and whole lands come to ruin.”

^ So it’s a big deal….

The eight degrees of censure outlined in “The Reliance of the Traveller” (some may be a familiar pattern to forum regulars!)


q5.1 - KNOWLEDGE OF THE WRONG ACT

q5.2 - The first degree consists of knowing the wrong act. One should not eavesdrop at another's house in order to hear the sounds of musical instruments, or try to catch the scent of wine, or feel for an object concealed beneath someone's shirt to see if it is a flute, or ask a person's neighbours to see what he is doing. But if two upright witnesses (def: 024.4) come and inform one that someone is drinking, one may enter his house and take him to task.

q5.2 - EXPLAINING THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG

q5.3 - The second degree consists of explaining that an act is Wrong, since an ignorant person will often do something he does not know is blameworthy, but will stop when he finds out. So one must explain it politely, saying, for example:
“people are not born scholars; we were unfamiliar with many things in Sacred law until scholars mentioned them to us. Perhaps there are not many in your hometown, and thus lead up to it diplomatically so the person understands without being offended. To avoid the evil of remaining silent when there is something wrong, only to commit the evil of offending a Muslim when able not to, is like washing away blood with urine.

q5.4 - FORBIDDING THE ACT VERBALLY

The third degree of severity is to prohibit the act by admonition, advice, and making the other fear Allah, mentioning the hadiths of divine punishments for it and reminding the person how the early Muslims behaved, all of which should be done with sympathy and kindness, not harshness or anger. The great danger here which one must beware of is that a learned person explaining that something is wrong may be proud of his knowledge and gloat over the lowliness of the other's ignorance, which is like saving someone from a fire by casting oneself into it. It is ignorant in the extreme, a deep disgrace, and a delusion from the Devil. The touchstone and test for this is to ask oneself whether one would prefer the censured person to stop at his own or another's behest, or whether one would prefer to forbid him oneself. If reproving him is difficult and weighs upon one. and one would prefer that somcone elsc do it, then one should proceed. for religion is the motive. But if it is otherwise, then one is following mere personal caprice and using the censuring of others as a means to display one's merit, and one should fear Allah and censure oneself first.

q5.5 - CENSURING WITH HARSH WORDS

The fourth degree of severity consists of reviling the person and bearing down on him with sharp, harsh words. One does not resort to this degree unless one is unable to prevent the person by politeness, and he shows he wants to persist or mocks one's admonitions and advice. Reviling him does not mean vulgarity and lies, but rather saying "You degenerate." You idiot." You ignoramus," Do you not fear Allah?" and so forth. Allah Most High quotes Ibrahim (upon whom be peace) saying: "Fie on you and what you worship apart from Allah! Can you not think?" (Koran 21:67).

q5.6 - RIGHTING THE WRONG BY HAND

The fifth degree consists of changing the blameworthy thing with one's hand, such as by breaking musical instruments, pouring out wine, or turning someone out of a house wrongfully appropriated. There are two rules for this degree:

(1) not to do so when one can get the person to do it himself, i.e. if one can get somcone to leave the land he has unjustly taken, one should not drag or push him from it:

(2) and to break the instruments, for example, just enough to obviate their being used for disobedience and no more, or to he careful not to break the bottles when pouring out wine. if one cannot manage except by throwing rocks at the bottles or the like, then one may do so and is not obliged to cover the damages.

If it be wondered whether one may break the botties or drag someone by the foot out of a wrongfully appropriated house to create fear, as an object lesson to others, the answer is that this is for leaders alone and is not permissible for private individuals because of the obscurity of the decision-making criteria in the matter.

q5.7 - INTIMIDATION

The sixth degree is threatening and intimidation, such as by saying. "Stop this or I'll- when possible this should precede actually hitting the person. The rule for this level is not to make a threat that one cannot carry out, such as saying "'or l'Il seize your house," or "take your wifc hostage, because if one says this seriously, it is unlawful, and if not serious, then one is lying.

q5.8 - ASSAULT

The seventh degree is to directly hit or kick the person. or similar measures that do not involve weapons. This is permissible for private individuals provided it is necessary, and that one confines oneself to the minimum needed to stop the reprchensible action and nothing more. When the action has been stopped, one refrains from doing anything further.

q5.9 - FORCE OF ARMS

The eighth degree is when one is unable to censure the act by oneself and requires the armed assistance of others. Sometimes the person being reproved may also get people to assist him, and a Skirmish may ensue, so the soundest legal opinion is that this degree requires authorization from the caliph (def: 025). since it leads to strife and the outbreak of civil discord. Another view is that there is no need for the caliph's permission.
I didnt take your post here as offensive or confrontational... but your sparring partner dipstick daze couldnt help but use it as a reason to "attack Christianity" as he has admitted to enjoying... but also to post that same graphic about religious sect membership numbers and in doing so, exposing the "quantity over quality" gang member mentality he applies to these issues.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I didnt take your post here as offensive or confrontational... but your sparring partner dipstick daze couldnt help but use it as a reason to "attack Christianity" as he has admitted to enjoying... but also to post that same graphic about religious sect membership numbers and in doing so, exposing the "quantity over quality" gang member mentality he applies to these issues.
The infographic is not something I have been bothered to comment on as the basis for its argument seems to be that the religion that can show the most rapid growth / greatest numbers “wins” in some sense. Back to the thread, my interest is not really in this but in what a person of no particular faith, but with an interest in history and reason might be able to gather about the historic Jesus.

To that question, either Bible or Qur’an quotes might be viewed by a skeptic as biased sources, so the historic imprint of Jesus was what I was more intrigued by.

I do agree with @Daze that discussing Islam is not really the focus of the thread, but it became a feature as Islam regrettably denies the key event of Jesus’s life from our perspective - His death and resurrection.
 

Daze

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The infographic is not something I have been bothered to comment on as the basis for its argument seems to be that the religion that can show the most rapid growth / greatest numbers “wins” in some sense.
Not at all, it is more pointing to the reality. In that you can't help but attack Islam when you yourself are in a sinking ship.

Had you stopped taking shots at my path to God you'd find less disagreements with me. Take this call to and enjoining what is good issue. You are literally saying we have to break shariah to enforce shariah. I mean it is ridiculous.

Islam is a completely logical religion that covers every facet of life. There is no choosing the lesser evil. We take what God has sent down and apply it. Nothing more, nothing less.


I do agree with @Daze that discussing Islam is not really the focus of the thread, but it became a feature as Islam regrettably denies the key event of Jesus’s life from our perspective - His death and resurrection.
Its funny, had this thread only been about the existence of Jesus we would have been on the same side for once. As there is no doubt the man walked amongst us.

As i often say, how can Jesus come back if he died? How can anyone kill God?

Like i ended my Easter thread. When paganism and belief are intertwined, how does one separate the two?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Like i ended my Easter thread. When paganism and belief are intertwined, how does one separate the two?
Now you’re just being obtuse! Do you seriously contend that when the Catholic church sought to distance itself from the Jews by calling their celebration of Jesus’s death and resurrection “Easter” rather than “Passover”, that the actual event became a myth??

Of course the modern Easter comes encrusted with irrelevant bunnies, questionable eggs, fluffy chicks and bonnets. 2000 years of accumulated traditions, like moss on an ancient rock.

The moss may hide the rock to some, but it remains there nonetheless.
 
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Why this is important in Islam:

“(In Qudara Maqdisi) One should know that commanding the right and forbidding the wrong is the most important fundamental of the religion, and is the mission that Allah sent the prophets to fulfill. If it were folded up and put away, religion itself would vanish, dissolution appear, and whole lands come to ruin.”

^ So it’s a big deal….

The eight degrees of censure outlined in “The Reliance of the Traveller” (some may be a familiar pattern to forum regulars!)


q5.1 - KNOWLEDGE OF THE WRONG ACT

q5.2 - The first degree consists of knowing the wrong act. One should not eavesdrop at another's house in order to hear the sounds of musical instruments, or try to catch the scent of wine, or feel for an object concealed beneath someone's shirt to see if it is a flute, or ask a person's neighbours to see what he is doing. But if two upright witnesses (def: 024.4) come and inform one that someone is drinking, one may enter his house and take him to task.

q5.2 - EXPLAINING THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG

q5.3 - The second degree consists of explaining that an act is Wrong, since an ignorant person will often do something he does not know is blameworthy, but will stop when he finds out. So one must explain it politely, saying, for example:
“people are not born scholars; we were unfamiliar with many things in Sacred law until scholars mentioned them to us. Perhaps there are not many in your hometown, and thus lead up to it diplomatically so the person understands without being offended. To avoid the evil of remaining silent when there is something wrong, only to commit the evil of offending a Muslim when able not to, is like washing away blood with urine.

q5.4 - FORBIDDING THE ACT VERBALLY

The third degree of severity is to prohibit the act by admonition, advice, and making the other fear Allah, mentioning the hadiths of divine punishments for it and reminding the person how the early Muslims behaved, all of which should be done with sympathy and kindness, not harshness or anger. The great danger here which one must beware of is that a learned person explaining that something is wrong may be proud of his knowledge and gloat over the lowliness of the other's ignorance, which is like saving someone from a fire by casting oneself into it. It is ignorant in the extreme, a deep disgrace, and a delusion from the Devil. The touchstone and test for this is to ask oneself whether one would prefer the censured person to stop at his own or another's behest, or whether one would prefer to forbid him oneself. If reproving him is difficult and weighs upon one. and one would prefer that somcone elsc do it, then one should proceed. for religion is the motive. But if it is otherwise, then one is following mere personal caprice and using the censuring of others as a means to display one's merit, and one should fear Allah and censure oneself first.

q5.5 - CENSURING WITH HARSH WORDS

The fourth degree of severity consists of reviling the person and bearing down on him with sharp, harsh words. One does not resort to this degree unless one is unable to prevent the person by politeness, and he shows he wants to persist or mocks one's admonitions and advice. Reviling him does not mean vulgarity and lies, but rather saying "You degenerate." You idiot." You ignoramus," Do you not fear Allah?" and so forth. Allah Most High quotes Ibrahim (upon whom be peace) saying: "Fie on you and what you worship apart from Allah! Can you not think?" (Koran 21:67).

q5.6 - RIGHTING THE WRONG BY HAND

The fifth degree consists of changing the blameworthy thing with one's hand, such as by breaking musical instruments, pouring out wine, or turning someone out of a house wrongfully appropriated. There are two rules for this degree:

(1) not to do so when one can get the person to do it himself, i.e. if one can get somcone to leave the land he has unjustly taken, one should not drag or push him from it:

(2) and to break the instruments, for example, just enough to obviate their being used for disobedience and no more, or to he careful not to break the bottles when pouring out wine. if one cannot manage except by throwing rocks at the bottles or the like, then one may do so and is not obliged to cover the damages.

If it be wondered whether one may break the botties or drag someone by the foot out of a wrongfully appropriated house to create fear, as an object lesson to others, the answer is that this is for leaders alone and is not permissible for private individuals because of the obscurity of the decision-making criteria in the matter.

q5.7 - INTIMIDATION

The sixth degree is threatening and intimidation, such as by saying. "Stop this or I'll- when possible this should precede actually hitting the person. The rule for this level is not to make a threat that one cannot carry out, such as saying "'or l'Il seize your house," or "take your wifc hostage, because if one says this seriously, it is unlawful, and if not serious, then one is lying.

q5.8 - ASSAULT

The seventh degree is to directly hit or kick the person. or similar measures that do not involve weapons. This is permissible for private individuals provided it is necessary, and that one confines oneself to the minimum needed to stop the reprchensible action and nothing more. When the action has been stopped, one refrains from doing anything further.

q5.9 - FORCE OF ARMS

The eighth degree is when one is unable to censure the act by oneself and requires the armed assistance of others. Sometimes the person being reproved may also get people to assist him, and a Skirmish may ensue, so the soundest legal opinion is that this degree requires authorization from the caliph (def: 025). since it leads to strife and the outbreak of civil discord. Another view is that there is no need for the caliph's permission.

But in all possibility, regarding the main headings of all the pointers you have made here, Sire -- I always think that Islam is TheCreator literally saying 'I SLAM' to the deliberate bastardisation of real teachings of the previous religions and to the extreme malevolence of/by the paedo elites sitting at the top of the pyramid rn on this planet.
Other remaining gullible human beings (people) being caught in the wake of Islam is (unfortunately) collateral damage.

Islam has and is totally restraining the beast and it's agenda.

I believe, collateral damage could have been avoided or won't happen at all should every Al-Islam follower also had impeccable inkling/understanding to/of Al-Ihsan!
But every one is a human being here, even Muslims... And human beings are not that simple beings.. they are highly, ridiculously complicated!
 

Red Sky at Morning

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But in all possibility, regarding the main headings of all the pointers you have made here, Sire -- I always think that Islam is TheCreator literally saying 'I SLAM' to the deliberate bastardisation of real teachings of the previous religions and to the extreme malevolence of/by the paedo elites sitting at the top of the pyramid rn on this planet.
Other remaining gullible human beings (people) being caught in the wake of Islam is (unfortunately) collateral damage.

Islam has and is totally restraining the beast and it's agenda.

I believe, collateral damage could have been avoided or won't happen at all should every Al-Islam follower also had impeccable inkling/understanding to/of Al-Ihsan!
But every one is a human being here, even Muslims... And human beings are not that simple beings.. they are highly, ridiculously complicated!
Interesting observations - I have branched this discussion off to a more relevant thread title partly in response to @Daze point earlier…

 

Daze

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Now you’re just being obtuse! Do you seriously contend that when the Catholic church sought to distance itself from the Jews by calling their celebration of Jesus’s death and resurrection “Easter” rather than “Passover”, that the actual event became a myth??

Of course the modern Easter comes encrusted with irrelevant bunnies, questionable eggs, fluffy chicks and bonnets. 2000 years of accumulated traditions, like moss on an ancient rock.

The moss may hide the rock to some, but it remains there nonetheless.
Why do you bother replying here when you have took it upon yourself to attack my religion in yet another thread made specifically for it? Clearly you are not getting the views you wanted here to you took another shot on the main page.

That's funny you call me obtuse. Whose religion is more logical when your god cries to himself, to save himself?

I mean there is no logic in your faith what so ever. It is pagan from the beginning to the end.
trinity.jpg

How long have 3 in 1 gods been around Red?
The Triune god and paganism.

Why don't you make the thread Christianity and Paganism? Are you afraid of all of the similarities you will find? Look at the X-mas tree. Your bible calls it futile but you do it anyway.

I could care less what the Catholics did, but if history is any indicator the Jews distanced themselves away from those who worship prophets and in the case of Catholics, there mothers.

Never will the Jews or Christians be pleased with you, until you follow their faith. (2:102 Quran)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Why do you bother replying here when you have took it upon yourself to attack my religion in yet another thread made specifically for it? Clearly you are not getting the views you wanted here to you took another shot on the main page.

That's funny you call me obtuse. Whose religion is more logical when your god cries to himself, to save himself?

I mean there is no logic in your faith what so ever. It is pagan from the beginning to the end.
View attachment 76723

How long have 3 in 1 gods been around Red?
The Triune god and paganism.

Why don't you make the thread Christianity and Paganism? Are you afraid of all of the similarities you will find? Look at the X-mas tree. Your bible calls it futile but you do it anyway.

I could care less what the Catholics did, but if history is any indicator the Jews distanced themselves away from those who worship prophets and in the case of Catholics, there mothers.

Never will the Jews or Christians be pleased with you, until you follow their faith. (2:102 Quran)
 

Maldarker

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Why do you bother replying here when you have took it upon yourself to attack my religion in yet another thread made specifically for it? Clearly you are not getting the views you wanted here to you took another shot on the main page.
Says the guy that attacks christianity....OK Hippie Crit....."cough cough" Dazed & Confused "cough cough"
 
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