“Commanding the right, forbidding the wrong”

Red Sky at Morning

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I came across this information which helped me understand the interface with Islam and those who disagree with it’s message. The subject came up in a disagreement with @Daze and @TrollingTroubles over the death and resurrection of Jesus where the “right” appeared to be denying the resurrection and the “wrong” being the Christian perspective.

In the same spirit as BLM, black lives do indeed matter just a right is better than wrong, but the practice and philosophy of the BLM movement is different to the aspiration.

In the same way, “Commanding the right, forbidding the wrong” sounds honourable enough, but the way it plays out is not as good as it sounds…

The source for this is:

Reliance of the Traveller
Revised Edition

The Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law 'Umdat al-Salik by Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri (d. 769/1368) in Arabic with Facing English Text, Commentary, and Appendices Edited and Translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller

amana publications
Beltsville, Maryland U.S.A


Why this is important in Islam:

“(In Qudara Maqdisi) One should know that commanding the right and forbidding the wrong is the most important fundamental of the religion, and is the mission that Allah sent the prophets to fulfill. If it were folded up and put away, religion itself would vanish, dissolution appear, and whole lands come to ruin.”

^ So it’s a big deal….

The eight degrees of censure outlined in “The Reliance of the Traveller” (some may be a familiar pattern to forum regulars!)

en.m.wikipedia.org
Reliance of the Traveller - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

q5.1 - KNOWLEDGE OF THE WRONG ACT

q5.2 - The first degree consists of knowing the wrong act. One should not eavesdrop at another's house in order to hear the sounds of musical instruments, or try to catch the scent of wine, or feel for an object concealed beneath someone's shirt to see if it is a flute, or ask a person's neighbours to see what he is doing. But if two upright witnesses (def: 024.4) come and inform one that someone is drinking, one may enter his house and take him to task.

q5.2 - EXPLAINING THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG

q5.3 - The second degree consists of explaining that an act is Wrong, since an ignorant person will often do something he does not know is blameworthy, but will stop when he finds out. So one must explain it politely, saying, for example:
“people are not born scholars; we were unfamiliar with many things in Sacred law until scholars mentioned them to us. Perhaps there are not many in your hometown, and thus lead up to it diplomatically so the person understands without being offended. To avoid the evil of remaining silent when there is something wrong, only to commit the evil of offending a Muslim when able not to, is like washing away blood with urine.

q5.4 - FORBIDDING THE ACT VERBALLY

The third degree of severity is to prohibit the act by admonition, advice, and making the other fear Allah, mentioning the hadiths of divine punishments for it and reminding the person how the early Muslims behaved, all of which should be done with sympathy and kindness, not harshness or anger. The great danger here which one must beware of is that a learned person explaining that something is wrong may be proud of his knowledge and gloat over the lowliness of the other's ignorance, which is like saving someone from a fire by casting oneself into it. It is ignorant in the extreme, a deep disgrace, and a delusion from the Devil. The touchstone and test for this is to ask oneself whether one would prefer the censured person to stop at his own or another's behest, or whether one would prefer to forbid him oneself. If reproving him is difficult and weighs upon one. and one would prefer that somcone elsc do it, then one should proceed. for religion is the motive. But if it is otherwise, then one is following mere personal caprice and using the censuring of others as a means to display one's merit, and one should fear Allah and censure oneself first.

q5.5 - CENSURING WITH HARSH WORDS

The fourth degree of severity consists of reviling the person and bearing down on him with sharp, harsh words. One does not resort to this degree unless one is unable to prevent the person by politeness, and he shows he wants to persist or mocks one's admonitions and advice. Reviling him does not mean vulgarity and lies, but rather saying "You degenerate." You idiot." You ignoramus," Do you not fear Allah?" and so forth. Allah Most High quotes Ibrahim (upon whom be peace) saying: "Fie on you and what you worship apart from Allah! Can you not think?" (Koran 21:67).

q5.6 - RIGHTING THE WRONG BY HAND

The fifth degree consists of changing the blameworthy thing with one's hand, such as by breaking musical instruments, pouring out wine, or turning someone out of a house wrongfully appropriated. There are two rules for this degree:

(1) not to do so when one can get the person to do it himself, i.e. if one can get somcone to leave the land he has unjustly taken, one should not drag or push him from it:

(2) and to break the instruments, for example, just enough to obviate their being used for disobedience and no more, or to he careful not to break the bottles when pouring out wine. if one cannot manage except by throwing rocks at the bottles or the like, then one may do so and is not obliged to cover the damages.

If it be wondered whether one may break the botties or drag someone by the foot out of a wrongfully appropriated house to create fear, as an object lesson to others, the answer is that this is for leaders alone and is not permissible for private individuals because of the obscurity of the decision-making criteria in the matter.

q5.7 - INTIMIDATION

The sixth degree is threatening and intimidation, such as by saying. "Stop this or I'll- when possible this should precede actually hitting the person. The rule for this level is not to make a threat that one cannot carry out, such as saying "'or l'Il seize your house," or "take your wifc hostage, because if one says this seriously, it is unlawful, and if not serious, then one is lying.

q5.8 - ASSAULT

The seventh degree is to directly hit or kick the person. or similar measures that do not involve weapons. This is permissible for private individuals provided it is necessary, and that one confines oneself to the minimum needed to stop the reprchensible action and nothing more. When the action has been stopped, one refrains from doing anything further.

q5.9 - FORCE OF ARMS

The eighth degree is when one is unable to censure the act by oneself and requires the armed assistance of others. Sometimes the person being reproved may also get people to assist him, and a Skirmish may ensue, so the soundest legal opinion is that this degree requires authorization from the caliph (def: 025). since it leads to strife and the outbreak of civil discord. Another view is that there is no need for the caliph's permission.
 

Daze

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Did you seriously make a thread on this? You are something else. This was already explained, but much like your man god, the fingers go into the ears.

We do not VIOLATE shariah to enforce shariah. We do not use evil to combat evil. I don't know how to make this any more clear.

This is becoming pathetic. It is nothing more then grandstanding.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Did you seriously make a thread on this? You are something else. This was already explained, but much like your man god, the fingers go into the ears.

We do not VIOLATE shariah to enforce shariah. We do not use evil to combat evil. I don't know how to make this any more clear.

This is becoming pathetic. It is nothing more then grandstanding.
Would that reply qualify as an exercise of the fourth and sixth degree of censure?

I posted this thread up because exploring the idea has helped me better understand the nature and application of Islam.

As I comprehend it, Islam is a “dominionist” faith, not unlike the “Holy Roman Empire” or even the seven mountains dominionism of the American white wing moral majority.

The “House of war” and “House of peace” concept is also interesting as it seems to be a very different conception of a spiritual endgame to that of Christianity, a view best outlined in a parable:

Matthew 13:24-30
New King James Version
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

The way in which this differs from “Commanding the right, forbidding the wrong” I leave to the reading comprehension of others.

 

Alanantic

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The highest rulers, people do not know they have them
The next level, people love them and praise them
The next level, people fear them
The next level, people despise them
If the rulers' trust is insufficient
Have no trust in them
Proceeding calmly, valuing their words
Task accomplished, matter settled
The people all say, "We did it naturally"
Lao Tzu
 

TempestOfTempo

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Did you seriously make a thread on this? You are something else. This was already explained, but much like your man god, the fingers go into the ears.

We do not VIOLATE shariah to enforce shariah. We do not use evil to combat evil. I don't know how to make this any more clear.

This is becoming pathetic. It is nothing more then grandstanding.
"It is nothing more then grandstanding."
How pathetic... you are worse than a distraction here... you post to the detriment of every serious and casual truth seeker on this site.
 

Alanantic

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"It is nothing more then grandstanding."
How pathetic... you are worse than a distraction here... you post to the detriment of every serious and casual truth seeker on this site.
Sounds like he pressed one of your buttons...
 

DesertRose

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In the same way, “Commanding the right, forbidding the wrong” sounds honourable enough, but the way it plays out is not as good as it sounds…
If your society is tolerant of evil with time evil will take over and become intolerant of you. Reflect on the groups that promote social ills in the west and how they are now forcing children to view their immoral lifestyles as the norm.
Islam does not render unto Caesar what is His.
Caesar must follow the laws of God just like everyone else.

Here is an explanation of that Quranic principle, hope it helps you reflect.
Praise be to Allah
Man is very forgetful and makes a lot of mistakes. His own self (nafs) tells him to do evil and the Shaytaan tempts him to commit sin. When bodies get sick and are afflicted with disease, one has to find a doctor who can prescribe the appropriate medicine so that the body may be restored to full health. Similarly, souls and hearts may be afflicted with the diseases of desire and doubt, so people do things which Allaah has forbidden, such as shedding blood, committing adultery, drinking alcohol, oppressing people and consuming their wealth unlawfully, preventing people from following the way of Allaah and disbelieving in Allaah.

The diseases of the heart [psychological and spiritual diseases] are worse than diseases of the body. This means that one must find a doctor who is skilled in treating such diseases. Because the diseases of the heart are so many and cause the spread of evil and corruption, Allaah has enjoined the believers to treat these diseases, by enjoining that which is good and forbidding that which is evil. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Let there arise out of you a group of people inviting to all that is good (Islam), enjoining Al-Ma‘roof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do) and forbidding Al-Munkar (polytheism and disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden). And it is they who are the successful” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:104]

Enjoining what is good (al-ma’roof) and forbidding what is evil (al-munkar) is one of the most important Islamic duties, indeed it is the noblest and most sublime. This is the task of the Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them all), as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Messengers as bearers of good news as well as of warning in order that mankind should have no plea against Allaah after the (coming of) Messengers” [al-Nisaa’ 4:165]

Allaah has made the Muslim ummah the best nation ever raised up for mankind, in order to do this important task, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“You (true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad and his Sunnah) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma‘roof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allaah” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:110]

If the ummah fails to do its duty of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil, wrongdoing and corruption will spread throughout the ummah, and it will deserve the curse of Allaah.For Allaah cursed those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved because they failed in this important duty. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved were cursed by the tongue of Dawood (David) and ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). That was because they disobeyed (Allaah and the Messengers) and were ever transgressing beyond bounds.

They used not to forbid one another from Al-Munkar (wrong, evildoing, sins, polytheism, disbelief) which they committed. Vile indeed was what they used to do [al-Maa’idah 5:78]

Enjoining what is good and forbidding what s evil is one of the basic principles of this religion, and doing this is jihaad for the sake of Allaah. Jihaad requires putting up with difficulties and bearing insults and harm with patience, as Luqmaan said to his son:

“O my son! Aqim-is-Salaah (perform As-Salaah), enjoin (on people) Al-Ma‘roof (Islamic Monotheism and all that is good), and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief in the Oneness of Allaah, polytheism of all kinds and all that is evil and bad), and bear with patience whatever befalls you. Verily, these are some of the important commandments (ordered by Allaah with no exemption” [Luqmaan 31:17 – interpretation of the meaning]

Enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil is an important mission, hence those who undertake this mission must be of good character and must understand the objectives of sharee’ah; they must call people with wisdom and fair preaching and deal with them in a kind and gentle manner, so that Allaah may guide those whom He wills at their hands. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Invite (mankind, O Muhammad) to the way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur’aan) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided” [al-Nahl 16:125]

The ummah which establishes the symbols of Islam, enjoins what is good and forbids what is evil, will attain happiness in this world and in the Hereafter. Allaah will send them His support and grant them victory, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, Allaah will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, Allaah is All-Strong, All-Mighty.

Those (Muslim rulers) who, if We give them power in the land, (they) enjoin Iqamaat-as-Salaah [i.e. to perform the five compulsory congregational Salaah (prayers)(the males in mosques)], to pay the Zakaah and they enjoin Al-Ma‘roof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do), and forbid Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism and all that Islam has forbidden) [i.e. they make the Qur’aan as the law of their country in all the spheres of life]. And with Allaah rests the end of (all) matters (of creatures)” [al-Hajj 22:40-41]

Enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil is a mission which will never end until the Hour begins. It is obligatory upon all the ummah, rulers and subjects, men and women, each according to his or her circumstances. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever among you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand [by taking action]; and if he cannot, then with his tongue [by speaking out]; and if he cannot, then with his heart [by feeling that it is wrong] – and that is the weakest of faith.” (Narrated by Muslim, 49)

The Muslim ummah is one nation, and if corruption becomes widespread in it and its circumstances turn bad, then all the Muslims are obliged to reform it, rid it of evil things, enjoin what is good and forbid what is bad, and offer sincere advice to all. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Religion is sincerity.” We said, “To whom?” He said, “To Allaah and His Book, and His Messenger, and to the leaders of the Muslims and their common folk.” (Narrated by Muslim, 95).

If a Muslim is commanded to do something, he should be the quickest of people to do it, and if he is forbidden to do something, he must be the one who keeps furthest away from it. Allaah has issued a warning to those who go against that, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do?

Most hateful it is with Allaah that you say that which you do not do” [al-Saff 61:2-3]

No matter how righteous a person may be, he still needs sincere advice, guidance and reminders in the light of the Qur’aan and Sunnah. Allaah said to the Messenger of the Lord of the Worlds, the most perfect of all creation (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Keep your duty to Allaah, and obey not the disbelievers and the hypocrites (i.e., do not follow their advice). Verily, Allaah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise”

[al-Ahzaab 33:1]

So we must all enjoin that which is good and forbid that which is evil, so that we may attain the Pleasure of Allaah and His Paradise.
source: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/11403/enjoining-what-is-good-and-forbidding-what-is-evil

This was an entertaining clip, however, Mr. Tate is not a Muslim.
Christian Kickboxing Champion Praises Islam - Andrew Tate

 
Last edited:

Sibi

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History of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims.
The triumph of the ‘dhimmi’
By ELI KAVON

The 'Prayer' monument in Ramat Gan, in memory of the Jews who were killed in the ‘Farhud’ Pogrom in Iraq. (photo credit: Wikimedia Commons)


The 'Prayer' monument in Ramat Gan, in memory of the Jews who were killed in the ‘Farhud’ Pogrom in Iraq.

The Israeli-Arab conflict is not simply a 100-year-old political battle. Its roots are more than 1,300 years old and transcend the wars between the Jewish state and its Arab neighbors since the former’s founding in 1948. To gain a greater understanding of why “land for peace” has been a failure and even successful treaties with Egypt and Jordan have created at best a lukewarm relationship between Arabs and Jews, we must take a foray into the history of Jews living under Islamic sovereignty since the great conquests of Muhammad’s successors in the Middle East dating back to the 7th century CE.

The status of Jews and Christians as both “Peoples of the Book” and dhimmis gives greater depth to the understanding of why there has been no peaceful resolution of a conflict that is not solely political but social, cultural, psychological and religious. With the rise of Islam 1,400 years ago and the emerging religion’s control of territory from Spain in the west to India in the east, large numbers of Christians and Jews were incorporated into the great Islamic empires after the death of Muhammad. While Jews and Christians were considered people who possessed scriptures that were divinely inspired and, therefore, were not forced to convert to Islam, they were still considered dhimmis – dependent peoples.

This dhimmi status was known as the Pact of Omar, although it dates to a later period than that caliph, to the year 800. While Jews and Christians under Islam were guaranteed self-government, religious tolerance and exemption from military service, the dependent peoples had to be humiliated for rejecting Muhammad as the final prophet and the Koran as divine revelation.

Under dhimmi status, Jews and Christianscould not carry weapons, could not make converts, were not allowed to live in houses higher than those of Muslims, could not make a public display of their rituals, could only ride donkeys and not horses, could not build new churches or synagogues and had to pay a yearly poll tax. In addition, they had to wear distinctive clothing to differentiate them from Muslims. These dhimmi rules were not always enforced. During the Jewish golden ages in Spain and the Ottoman Empire Jews rose to great heights politically and financially.

Yet the dhimmi rules were enforced throughout the Islamic world and defined who the Muslims were in opposition to those who rejected Muhammad. Dhimmitude shaped the psychology of Islam in a way that continues today. The rise of the State of Israel turned the Jews’ dhimmi status on its head. No longer would Jews be a “dependent” people, but an independent people. Although the status of Jews in the Islamic world is often depicted as far better than that of Jews in the Christian domain, the reality is that for most of the history of Jews under Islamic sovereignty dhimmis were treated poorly, and there were even incidents where Muslims forced Jews to convert to Islam and caused Islamic destruction of Jewish communities – such as in Granada in 1066.In the late Sir Martin Gilbert’s last book, In the House of Ishmael, the historian does not paint a rosy picture of Jewish life under Islamic sovereignty.

Often it depended on the individual caliph or sultan in terms of treatment of the Jews.

Dhimmi status provided tolerance of religion and autonomy, but the humiliating terms of the status demeaned Jews and Christians and defined the superiority of Muslims to other monotheistic faiths. But with the founding of the State of Israel how Muslims define themselves with regard to Jews has had to change radically – or has not changed at all.

Although the greatest Islamic empire, the Ottomans, ordered an end to the dhimmi status in 1856, there is no doubt that socially, religiously and psychologically there has been little change. A legal decree abolishing the dhimmi status could not simply wipe away more than a millennium of institutionalized humiliation of the Jews. The IDF has repeatedly defeated Islamic and Arab armies on the battlefield, the Jewish people have a long list of Nobel Prize winners, Israel is a global leader in the high-tech industry, the Jewish state is a democracy and, despite terrorism and war, thriving. According to the millennium-long logic of the dhimmi, this is a thorn in the side of Muslim self-definition and Muslim theology and the way Muslims understood their superiority over Jews.

Further exacerbating the theology and politics of the dhimmi is the fact that the Jewish capital is in Islam’s third holiest site and for the past 50 years Jews have controlled important territory that had been under Islamic sovereignty. To understand Muslim attitudes toward Israel, the failure of the peace process with the Palestinians, the hatred of Israel in the streets of Tehran, one must go beyond the politics of the past century and look much further back into the relationships in history between Muslims and Jews.

The State of Israel obliterates the idea that the Jew must “know his place” in the hierarchy of Muslim societies.
Independent people are no longer dependent and humiliated. That notion will not be wiped away from the Islamic world overnight, if ever. If the Islamic world could come to peace with the notion that Jews are no longer in a position to accept humiliation, it is likely that the Middle East would be a more peaceful region. But the ground rule is that the reality of a Jewish state challenges age-old humiliations of the Jews in the Muslim world.
 

Daze

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Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
2,536
History of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims.
The triumph of the ‘dhimmi’
By ELI KAVON

The 'Prayer' monument in Ramat Gan, in memory of the Jews who were killed in the ‘Farhud’ Pogrom in Iraq. (photo credit: Wikimedia Commons)'Prayer' monument in Ramat Gan, in memory of the Jews who were killed in the ‘Farhud’ Pogrom in Iraq. (photo credit: Wikimedia Commons)


The 'Prayer' monument in Ramat Gan, in memory of the Jews who were killed in the ‘Farhud’ Pogrom in Iraq.

The Israeli-Arab conflict is not simply a 100-year-old political battle. Its roots are more than 1,300 years old and transcend the wars between the Jewish state and its Arab neighbors since the former’s founding in 1948. To gain a greater understanding of why “land for peace” has been a failure and even successful treaties with Egypt and Jordan have created at best a lukewarm relationship between Arabs and Jews, we must take a foray into the history of Jews living under Islamic sovereignty since the great conquests of Muhammad’s successors in the Middle East dating back to the 7th century CE.

The status of Jews and Christians as both “Peoples of the Book” and dhimmis gives greater depth to the understanding of why there has been no peaceful resolution of a conflict that is not solely political but social, cultural, psychological and religious. With the rise of Islam 1,400 years ago and the emerging religion’s control of territory from Spain in the west to India in the east, large numbers of Christians and Jews were incorporated into the great Islamic empires after the death of Muhammad. While Jews and Christians were considered people who possessed scriptures that were divinely inspired and, therefore, were not forced to convert to Islam, they were still considered dhimmis – dependent peoples.

This dhimmi status was known as the Pact of Omar, although it dates to a later period than that caliph, to the year 800. While Jews and Christians under Islam were guaranteed self-government, religious tolerance and exemption from military service, the dependent peoples had to be humiliated for rejecting Muhammad as the final prophet and the Koran as divine revelation.

Under dhimmi status, Jews and Christianscould not carry weapons, could not make converts, were not allowed to live in houses higher than those of Muslims, could not make a public display of their rituals, could only ride donkeys and not horses, could not build new churches or synagogues and had to pay a yearly poll tax. In addition, they had to wear distinctive clothing to differentiate them from Muslims. These dhimmi rules were not always enforced. During the Jewish golden ages in Spain and the Ottoman Empire Jews rose to great heights politically and financially.

Yet the dhimmi rules were enforced throughout the Islamic world and defined who the Muslims were in opposition to those who rejected Muhammad. Dhimmitude shaped the psychology of Islam in a way that continues today. The rise of the State of Israel turned the Jews’ dhimmi status on its head. No longer would Jews be a “dependent” people, but an independent people. Although the status of Jews in the Islamic world is often depicted as far better than that of Jews in the Christian domain, the reality is that for most of the history of Jews under Islamic sovereignty dhimmis were treated poorly, and there were even incidents where Muslims forced Jews to convert to Islam and caused Islamic destruction of Jewish communities – such as in Granada in 1066.In the late Sir Martin Gilbert’s last book, In the House of Ishmael, the historian does not paint a rosy picture of Jewish life under Islamic sovereignty.

Often it depended on the individual caliph or sultan in terms of treatment of the Jews.

Dhimmi status provided tolerance of religion and autonomy, but the humiliating terms of the status demeaned Jews and Christians and defined the superiority of Muslims to other monotheistic faiths. But with the founding of the State of Israel how Muslims define themselves with regard to Jews has had to change radically – or has not changed at all.

Although the greatest Islamic empire, the Ottomans, ordered an end to the dhimmi status in 1856, there is no doubt that socially, religiously and psychologically there has been little change. A legal decree abolishing the dhimmi status could not simply wipe away more than a millennium of institutionalized humiliation of the Jews. The IDF has repeatedly defeated Islamic and Arab armies on the battlefield, the Jewish people have a long list of Nobel Prize winners, Israel is a global leader in the high-tech industry, the Jewish state is a democracy and, despite terrorism and war, thriving. According to the millennium-long logic of the dhimmi, this is a thorn in the side of Muslim self-definition and Muslim theology and the way Muslims understood their superiority over Jews.

Further exacerbating the theology and politics of the dhimmi is the fact that the Jewish capital is in Islam’s third holiest site and for the past 50 years Jews have controlled important territory that had been under Islamic sovereignty. To understand Muslim attitudes toward Israel, the failure of the peace process with the Palestinians, the hatred of Israel in the streets of Tehran, one must go beyond the politics of the past century and look much further back into the relationships in history between Muslims and Jews.

The State of Israel obliterates the idea that the Jew must “know his place” in the hierarchy of Muslim societies.
Independent people are no longer dependent and humiliated. That notion will not be wiped away from the Islamic world overnight, if ever. If the Islamic world could come to peace with the notion that Jews are no longer in a position to accept humiliation, it is likely that the Middle East would be a more peaceful region. But the ground rule is that the reality of a Jewish state challenges age-old humiliations of the Jews in the Muslim world.
Just briefly skimming over this because like Red, you are obvious in your anti Islam agenda.

This caught my eye.
and there were even incidents where Muslims forced Jews to convert to Islam and caused Islamic destruction of Jewish communities
Sadly for you the Quran forbids such practices.

There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. (2:256 Quran)

And say, “˹This is˺ the truth from your Lord. Whoever wills let them believe, and whoever wills let them disbelieve.” (18:29 Quran)


I'm sure you have told other lies in your copy / paste job above that are easily refuted but it is almost midnight here.

My only question is.. when will you fear God and stop bearing false witness as he commanded you? If you want to be known as a liar, you're well on your way SIbi.

 

Red Sky at Morning

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Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
12,231
If your society is tolerant of evil with time evil will take over and become intolerant of you. Reflect on the groups that promote social ills in the west and how they are now forcing children to view their immoral lifestyles as the norm.
Islam does not render unto Caesar what is His.
Caesar must follow the laws of God just like everyone else.

Here is an explanation of that Quranic principle, hope it helps you reflect.
Praise be to Allah
Man is very forgetful and makes a lot of mistakes. His own self (nafs) tells him to do evil and the Shaytaan tempts him to commit sin. When bodies get sick and are afflicted with disease, one has to find a doctor who can prescribe the appropriate medicine so that the body may be restored to full health. Similarly, souls and hearts may be afflicted with the diseases of desire and doubt, so people do things which Allaah has forbidden, such as shedding blood, committing adultery, drinking alcohol, oppressing people and consuming their wealth unlawfully, preventing people from following the way of Allaah and disbelieving in Allaah.

The diseases of the heart [psychological and spiritual diseases] are worse than diseases of the body. This means that one must find a doctor who is skilled in treating such diseases. Because the diseases of the heart are so many and cause the spread of evil and corruption, Allaah has enjoined the believers to treat these diseases, by enjoining that which is good and forbidding that which is evil. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Let there arise out of you a group of people inviting to all that is good (Islam), enjoining Al-Ma‘roof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do) and forbidding Al-Munkar (polytheism and disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden). And it is they who are the successful” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:104]

Enjoining what is good (al-ma’roof) and forbidding what is evil (al-munkar) is one of the most important Islamic duties, indeed it is the noblest and most sublime. This is the task of the Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them all), as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Messengers as bearers of good news as well as of warning in order that mankind should have no plea against Allaah after the (coming of) Messengers” [al-Nisaa’ 4:165]

Allaah has made the Muslim ummah the best nation ever raised up for mankind, in order to do this important task, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“You (true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad and his Sunnah) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma‘roof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allaah” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:110]

If the ummah fails to do its duty of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil, wrongdoing and corruption will spread throughout the ummah, and it will deserve the curse of Allaah.For Allaah cursed those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved because they failed in this important duty. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved were cursed by the tongue of Dawood (David) and ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). That was because they disobeyed (Allaah and the Messengers) and were ever transgressing beyond bounds.

They used not to forbid one another from Al-Munkar (wrong, evildoing, sins, polytheism, disbelief) which they committed. Vile indeed was what they used to do [al-Maa’idah 5:78]

Enjoining what is good and forbidding what s evil is one of the basic principles of this religion, and doing this is jihaad for the sake of Allaah. Jihaad requires putting up with difficulties and bearing insults and harm with patience, as Luqmaan said to his son:

“O my son! Aqim-is-Salaah (perform As-Salaah), enjoin (on people) Al-Ma‘roof (Islamic Monotheism and all that is good), and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief in the Oneness of Allaah, polytheism of all kinds and all that is evil and bad), and bear with patience whatever befalls you. Verily, these are some of the important commandments (ordered by Allaah with no exemption” [Luqmaan 31:17 – interpretation of the meaning]

Enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil is an important mission, hence those who undertake this mission must be of good character and must understand the objectives of sharee’ah; they must call people with wisdom and fair preaching and deal with them in a kind and gentle manner, so that Allaah may guide those whom He wills at their hands. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Invite (mankind, O Muhammad) to the way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur’aan) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided” [al-Nahl 16:125]

The ummah which establishes the symbols of Islam, enjoins what is good and forbids what is evil, will attain happiness in this world and in the Hereafter. Allaah will send them His support and grant them victory, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, Allaah will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, Allaah is All-Strong, All-Mighty.

Those (Muslim rulers) who, if We give them power in the land, (they) enjoin Iqamaat-as-Salaah [i.e. to perform the five compulsory congregational Salaah (prayers)(the males in mosques)], to pay the Zakaah and they enjoin Al-Ma‘roof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do), and forbid Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism and all that Islam has forbidden) [i.e. they make the Qur’aan as the law of their country in all the spheres of life]. And with Allaah rests the end of (all) matters (of creatures)” [al-Hajj 22:40-41]

Enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil is a mission which will never end until the Hour begins. It is obligatory upon all the ummah, rulers and subjects, men and women, each according to his or her circumstances. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever among you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand [by taking action]; and if he cannot, then with his tongue [by speaking out]; and if he cannot, then with his heart [by feeling that it is wrong] – and that is the weakest of faith.” (Narrated by Muslim, 49)

The Muslim ummah is one nation, and if corruption becomes widespread in it and its circumstances turn bad, then all the Muslims are obliged to reform it, rid it of evil things, enjoin what is good and forbid what is bad, and offer sincere advice to all. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Religion is sincerity.” We said, “To whom?” He said, “To Allaah and His Book, and His Messenger, and to the leaders of the Muslims and their common folk.” (Narrated by Muslim, 95).

If a Muslim is commanded to do something, he should be the quickest of people to do it, and if he is forbidden to do something, he must be the one who keeps furthest away from it. Allaah has issued a warning to those who go against that, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do?

Most hateful it is with Allaah that you say that which you do not do” [al-Saff 61:2-3]

No matter how righteous a person may be, he still needs sincere advice, guidance and reminders in the light of the Qur’aan and Sunnah. Allaah said to the Messenger of the Lord of the Worlds, the most perfect of all creation (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Keep your duty to Allaah, and obey not the disbelievers and the hypocrites (i.e., do not follow their advice). Verily, Allaah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise”

[al-Ahzaab 33:1]

So we must all enjoin that which is good and forbid that which is evil, so that we may attain the Pleasure of Allaah and His Paradise.
source: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/11403/enjoining-what-is-good-and-forbidding-what-is-evil

This was an entertaining clip, however, Mr. Tate is not a Muslim.
Christian Kickboxing Champion Praises Islam - Andrew Tate

Thank you for outlining the Islamic view of the Islamic formulation of the ideal nation.

I have a sign above my fireplace at home in the style of an opticians test card that says “you can rarely see what is right in front of you”. From the responses to “commanding the right, forbidding the wrong”, it seems to be axiomatic to Muslims that a society governed by Islamic law would be a good thing.

Is that in fact the case?

The wider context I have been pondering is that the Bible describes a future millennial reign of Jesus. The present capitalist system seems to have changed, war done away with and godly law enforced…

The Lord’s Reign in Zion
1Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the Lord’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
2Many nations shall come and say,
“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into [a]pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.
4But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree,
And no one shall make them afraid;
For the mouth of the Lord of hosts has spoken.
5For all people walk each in the name of his god,
But we will walk in the name of the Lord our God
Forever and ever.
Under the Roman Catholic Church, this future prophecy of God’s dealing with mankind in the future became confused with the here-and-now dominionism of “Christendom” under the popes. Augustine wrote “City of God” from which Amillennial Christianity began. Therefore the notion that man applying God’s rules to society will bring in the kingdom of God predates Islam.

The fact that the crusades occurred is a result of two different dominionist faiths clashing over land and influence.

Communism fails in its mission to bring in the “brotherhood of man” as George Orwell realised in Animal Farm, “some animals are more equal than others”.

The UN fails in its mission to have the nations beat their swords into ploughshares because all it takes is for one nation to choose swords instead and they can spread tyranny unopposed.

The question I have is whether Islam follows this pattern - the assumption seems to be that taking Muhammad’s writings and enforcing those standards on a wider society is a de facto “good thing”. The idea rests on a big IF.

If Allah truly gave Muhammad the message that (if followed) would lead to the best possible goodness and joy in human societies, then societies under Islamic law should be as close to perfection as you get this side of eternity.

Just as a look at what communism does to a country is the best philosophical rebuttal to the ideas of Marx.
Christianity teaches the importance of free will at its core. Love is a choice and requires the choice not to love. In the end God will be the judge of evil and the rewarder of good.

Perhaps this is best illustrated by making the distinction between God’s perfect will and Gods permissive will, each option residing within God’s sovereign will.

From an outside perspective, it would seem to me that the American constitution and bill or rights is as close to a societal standard of freedom and justice within a mixed population of faiths that can be implemented this side of the return of the Lord.


 
Last edited:

TempestOfTempo

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Messages
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If your society is tolerant of evil with time evil will take over and become intolerant of you. Reflect on the groups that promote social ills in the west and how they are now forcing children to view their immoral lifestyles as the norm.
Islam does not render unto Caesar what is His.
Caesar must follow the laws of God just like everyone else.

Here is an explanation of that Quranic principle, hope it helps you reflect.
Praise be to Allah
Man is very forgetful and makes a lot of mistakes. His own self (nafs) tells him to do evil and the Shaytaan tempts him to commit sin. When bodies get sick and are afflicted with disease, one has to find a doctor who can prescribe the appropriate medicine so that the body may be restored to full health. Similarly, souls and hearts may be afflicted with the diseases of desire and doubt, so people do things which Allaah has forbidden, such as shedding blood, committing adultery, drinking alcohol, oppressing people and consuming their wealth unlawfully, preventing people from following the way of Allaah and disbelieving in Allaah.

The diseases of the heart [psychological and spiritual diseases] are worse than diseases of the body. This means that one must find a doctor who is skilled in treating such diseases. Because the diseases of the heart are so many and cause the spread of evil and corruption, Allaah has enjoined the believers to treat these diseases, by enjoining that which is good and forbidding that which is evil. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Let there arise out of you a group of people inviting to all that is good (Islam), enjoining Al-Ma‘roof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do) and forbidding Al-Munkar (polytheism and disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden). And it is they who are the successful” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:104]

Enjoining what is good (al-ma’roof) and forbidding what is evil (al-munkar) is one of the most important Islamic duties, indeed it is the noblest and most sublime. This is the task of the Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them all), as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Messengers as bearers of good news as well as of warning in order that mankind should have no plea against Allaah after the (coming of) Messengers” [al-Nisaa’ 4:165]

Allaah has made the Muslim ummah the best nation ever raised up for mankind, in order to do this important task, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“You (true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad and his Sunnah) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma‘roof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allaah” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:110]

If the ummah fails to do its duty of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil, wrongdoing and corruption will spread throughout the ummah, and it will deserve the curse of Allaah.For Allaah cursed those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved because they failed in this important duty. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved were cursed by the tongue of Dawood (David) and ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). That was because they disobeyed (Allaah and the Messengers) and were ever transgressing beyond bounds.

They used not to forbid one another from Al-Munkar (wrong, evildoing, sins, polytheism, disbelief) which they committed. Vile indeed was what they used to do [al-Maa’idah 5:78]

Enjoining what is good and forbidding what s evil is one of the basic principles of this religion, and doing this is jihaad for the sake of Allaah. Jihaad requires putting up with difficulties and bearing insults and harm with patience, as Luqmaan said to his son:

“O my son! Aqim-is-Salaah (perform As-Salaah), enjoin (on people) Al-Ma‘roof (Islamic Monotheism and all that is good), and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief in the Oneness of Allaah, polytheism of all kinds and all that is evil and bad), and bear with patience whatever befalls you. Verily, these are some of the important commandments (ordered by Allaah with no exemption” [Luqmaan 31:17 – interpretation of the meaning]

Enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil is an important mission, hence those who undertake this mission must be of good character and must understand the objectives of sharee’ah; they must call people with wisdom and fair preaching and deal with them in a kind and gentle manner, so that Allaah may guide those whom He wills at their hands. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Invite (mankind, O Muhammad) to the way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur’aan) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided” [al-Nahl 16:125]

The ummah which establishes the symbols of Islam, enjoins what is good and forbids what is evil, will attain happiness in this world and in the Hereafter. Allaah will send them His support and grant them victory, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, Allaah will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, Allaah is All-Strong, All-Mighty.

Those (Muslim rulers) who, if We give them power in the land, (they) enjoin Iqamaat-as-Salaah [i.e. to perform the five compulsory congregational Salaah (prayers)(the males in mosques)], to pay the Zakaah and they enjoin Al-Ma‘roof (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do), and forbid Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism and all that Islam has forbidden) [i.e. they make the Qur’aan as the law of their country in all the spheres of life]. And with Allaah rests the end of (all) matters (of creatures)” [al-Hajj 22:40-41]

Enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil is a mission which will never end until the Hour begins. It is obligatory upon all the ummah, rulers and subjects, men and women, each according to his or her circumstances. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever among you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand [by taking action]; and if he cannot, then with his tongue [by speaking out]; and if he cannot, then with his heart [by feeling that it is wrong] – and that is the weakest of faith.” (Narrated by Muslim, 49)

The Muslim ummah is one nation, and if corruption becomes widespread in it and its circumstances turn bad, then all the Muslims are obliged to reform it, rid it of evil things, enjoin what is good and forbid what is bad, and offer sincere advice to all. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Religion is sincerity.” We said, “To whom?” He said, “To Allaah and His Book, and His Messenger, and to the leaders of the Muslims and their common folk.” (Narrated by Muslim, 95).

If a Muslim is commanded to do something, he should be the quickest of people to do it, and if he is forbidden to do something, he must be the one who keeps furthest away from it. Allaah has issued a warning to those who go against that, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do?

Most hateful it is with Allaah that you say that which you do not do” [al-Saff 61:2-3]

No matter how righteous a person may be, he still needs sincere advice, guidance and reminders in the light of the Qur’aan and Sunnah. Allaah said to the Messenger of the Lord of the Worlds, the most perfect of all creation (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Keep your duty to Allaah, and obey not the disbelievers and the hypocrites (i.e., do not follow their advice). Verily, Allaah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise”

[al-Ahzaab 33:1]

So we must all enjoin that which is good and forbid that which is evil, so that we may attain the Pleasure of Allaah and His Paradise.
source: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/11403/enjoining-what-is-good-and-forbidding-what-is-evil

This was an entertaining clip, however, Mr. Tate is not a Muslim.
Christian Kickboxing Champion Praises Islam - Andrew Tate

"If your society is tolerant of evil with time evil will take over and become intolerant of you. Reflect on the groups that promote social ills in the west and how they are now forcing children to view their immoral lifestyles as the norm."
So quick with the projections and deflections coupled with a near complete unwillingness to address your own peoples rampant, seemingly limitless lust and action on behalf of child sex trafficking, r*pe and murder... yet quick with your finger to point at the generalized boogeyman named "the West". So whats your explanation for why these agenda's, agenda's which you support, are rampant in "Islamic" nations, societies and communities?

"Islam does not render unto Caesar what is His.
Caesar must follow the laws of God just like everyone else."
This is such a basic, yet crucial example of you peoples hubris and "convenient" lack of an actual Islamic lens with which the "outside" world can be viewed...

Islam does not render unto Caesar, but Muslims do. Or at least they can. Muslims are instructed to follow the laws of the land they reside in, and that LITERALLY includes paying taxes. If the Muslim cannot change the problematic laws via legal means where they live and/or cannot live in acceptance with them, it is incumbent on that Muslim to LEAVE such a land and instead reside within a Muslim nation. Thats what Muslims are supposed to do. And no, Caesar does NOT have to follow the laws of God, let alone observe Islamic jurisprudence. First at a basic level, humans are created with free will, so we do NOT have to follow the laws of God. Following them and striving to live in accordance with them is part of our Earthly test. Secondly, these are non-Muslims living in non-Muslim lands, what right (or even realistic hope) do you have for their leaders to follow shariah?
 
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