Aisha's age at the time of her marriage

TempestOfTempo

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Instead of addressing the issue head on in any of the numerous threads the topic its already being discussed in, or multiple threads devoted to the topic specifically, it has been requested to post this topic (once again) in its own discussion thread. So here you go... and we dont need bubba sparkles showing up and derailing the topic with his outlandish, embarrassing trolling for confrontation, nor do we need the Desert Shibshib crowd showing up with a bunch of distractions, deflections, insults and "butwhataboutTHEM" nonsense.

The video here does not even present all of the evidence... but it lays out a basic argument regarding the dispute between the 6-9 and 17-19 crowds. So for whoever wants to stay on topic and address the evidence presented... this is the place.
 

Bubbajay

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This is Aishas own words on the subject. One would think that she would know...........Narrated ‘Aishah that the Prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).”[1]
“The Messenger of God came to our house and men and women of the Ansar gathered around him. My mother came to me
[Aisha] while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. Jumaymah, my nurse, took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door, she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought [in] while the Messenger of God was sitting on a bed in our house. [My mother] made me sit on his lap and said, “These are your relatives. May God bless you with them and bless them with you!” Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”[2]
 

TempestOfTempo

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This is Aishas own words on the subject. One would think that she would know...........Narrated ‘Aishah that the Prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).”[1]
“The Messenger of God came to our house and men and women of the Ansar gathered around him. My mother came to me
[Aisha] while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. Jumaymah, my nurse, took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door, she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought [in] while the Messenger of God was sitting on a bed in our house. [My mother] made me sit on his lap and said, “These are your relatives. May God bless you with them and bless them with you!” Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”[2]
The video addresses such contentions. Why cant you all do what you said you wanted to do... address the information presented in the video? If you find points of contention in there, by all means lets explore them together...

But why cant yall just address the information you asked to debate about once its presented?
 

Bubbajay

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I'm doing nothing more than posting proof that's been accepted and believed by Muslims for at least 1300 years. People from all religions try and rewrite history and cover-up things that aren't so appealing to future converts. Muslims through out the word today believe it in spite of revisionist historians.
 

TempestOfTempo

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I'm doing nothing more than posting proof that's been accepted and believed by Muslims for at least 1300 years. People from all religions try and rewrite history and cover-up things that aren't so appealing to future converts. Muslims through out the word today believe it in spite of revisionist historians.
The video is there for all to see, including yourself. Please address what in specific you feel is incorrect in it so we can have an actual discussion regarding the matter. I have made the basic argument available via the video... so feel free to address it directly and then myself and others can engage with you regarding the topic.
 

Bubbajay

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The Quran teaches in its laws that a man has to wait three monthly cycles to divorce his wife, then mentions "woman who are too young" to have a cycle in the divorce laws.

Surah 2:228 depicts Allah saying a man has to wait three monthly cycles before he can divorce his wife; in Surah 65:4, it gives exceptions to that rule: women who are too old, women who are too young, or women who are pregnant. This shows that child marriage was permissible. Additionally, the chapter heading of Sahih al-Bukhari 5133 is ‘Giving young children in marriage is permissible by virtue of Statement of Allah’. The chapter cites verses 65:4 as well as the words of Aisha, who repeats that Muhammad consummated their marriage when she was nine years old.
Women
 

TempestOfTempo

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The Quran teaches in its laws that a man has to wait three monthly cycles to divorce his wife, then mentions "woman who are too young" to have a cycle in the divorce laws.

Surah 2:228 depicts Allah saying a man has to wait three monthly cycles before he can divorce his wife; in Surah 65:4, it gives exceptions to that rule: women who are too old, women who are too young, or women who are pregnant. This shows that child marriage was permissible. Additionally, the chapter heading of Sahih al-Bukhari 5133 is ‘Giving young children in marriage is permissible by virtue of Statement of Allah’. The chapter cites verses 65:4 as well as the words of Aisha, who repeats that Muhammad consummated their marriage when she was nine years old.
Women
And now we can clearly see why this was a waste of time.
To the posters who encouraged me to do this... I pretty much figured this is how it would turn out, but I gave it a chance. For anyone who actually wants a fresh and honest discussion regarding the topic, feel free to watch the video and post your thoughts here.
 

Bubbajay

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Again more facts. I'm offering the core teachings of Islam that's been known and practiced for over a thousand years. When I post verses from the Quran that prove it teaches prepubescent marriage the poster gets attacked instead of the verses being posted.


The sources also show that Aisha was prepubescent. In Sahih Muslim 3481, when she was taken to consummate the marriage, we read; ‘A’isha reported that Allah’s Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he died she was eighteen years old’. Because she was playing with dolls, which is forbidden as they are images, it confirms her prepubescence: young children are not held to observance as strict as that to which older people are held. In Sahih al-Bukhari 6130, it is said: ‘I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Messenger used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.
 

TempestOfTempo

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Again more facts. I'm offering the core teachings of Islam that's been known and practiced for over a thousand years. When I post verses from the Quran that prove it teaches prepubescent marriage the poster gets attacked instead of the verses being posted.


The sources also show that Aisha was prepubescent. In Sahih Muslim 3481, when she was taken to consummate the marriage, we read; ‘A’isha reported that Allah’s Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he died she was eighteen years old’. Because she was playing with dolls, which is forbidden as they are images, it confirms her prepubescence: young children are not held to observance as strict as that to which older people are held. In Sahih al-Bukhari 6130, it is said: ‘I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Messenger used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.
Your contentions are addressed in the video. Which is exactly why you just keep repeating them instead of viewing the counter-evidence presented and then engaging in an honest discussion.
 

Bubbajay

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All the video does is question the original timeline, and introduces another timeline that would obviously make her age older. What it doesn't do is state that why the writings I posted contain things like toys, swings, and even Aisha herself claiming she was six, and taken from a swing to meet Muhammad and then taken away by him. It also doesn't state why the Quran mentions prepubescent girls in the context of marriage and divorce.

It was what I claimed it was. An attempt to rewrite history for future converts. A way to picture Islam in the best possible light. Given all the evidence I don't think anyone is going to convert to your way of thinking on this subject. History is 100% true on this subject, and any of the small % of people who believe it have an obvious agenda as the video states in the beginning.

The thought of a supposed 17 year old girl playing with toys and swings doesn't hold water. End of discussion
 

Bubbajay

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I came across this bit of disgusting perversity. What's interesting is that Alester Crowley did the same thing, more proof of Islam's paganism.

(3)
Chapter: The Cleansing of Najasah and its nature
(3)
باب إزالة النجاسة وبيانها

In the version of Muslim:
“I used to scrape it (the semen) off the garment of Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) and then he offered prayer with it.
 

sickgirl15

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The video is there for all to see, including yourself. Please address what in specific you feel is incorrect in it so we can have an actual discussion regarding the matter. I have made the basic argument available via the video... so feel free to address it directly and then myself and others can engage with you regarding the topic.
Doesn’t it state in the Quran that Muslims are allowed to lie? I believe it does, and they’ll never admit what really goes on behind their sordid, closed doors. Only an idiot would incriminate themselves! False facts exist in videos, on tv, and my Mommy told me to “never believe every single thing you see or hear..” :)
 

TempestOfTempo

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All the video does is question the original timeline, and introduces another timeline that would obviously make her age older. What it doesn't do is state that why the writings I posted contain things like toys, swings, and even Aisha herself claiming she was six, and taken from a swing to meet Muhammad and then taken away by him. It also doesn't state why the Quran mentions prepubescent girls in the context of marriage and divorce.

It was what I claimed it was. An attempt to rewrite history for future converts. A way to picture Islam in the best possible light. Given all the evidence I don't think anyone is going to convert to your way of thinking on this subject. History is 100% true on this subject, and any of the small % of people who believe it have an obvious agenda as the video states in the beginning.

The thought of a supposed 17 year old girl playing with toys and swings doesn't hold water. End of discussion
Ok it seems you watched the video and stuck to the heart of the matter without insults... so I will do my best to address your contentions in a respectful manner and present more information for us all to examine together here.

You are referring to much of the same "evidence" (hadeeth and etc.) which the 6-9 crowd use as justification for their stance. What I will concede to you is the following: Weather it is due to fear of losing something they utilize as a security blanket (providing for, in the best sense, a basis for implementing Islamic values, law and ethos into daily life... or in the worse, simply a get-out-of jail free car for lensing their personal desires/decisions as permissible through an ongoing series of loopholes) or because they are actually down with ped activity (which far too many are) so many Muslims have degraded the practice of fatwa's and tradition of hadeeth to the point its essentially meaningless. This is primarily a born-and-bred Muslim issue as re/converts have already been raised with the understanding that grown adults engaged in sexual activity with children is wrong and should be confronted in any instance it is encountered/uncovered.

As the video states (and in additional material I will post for us too examine) proponents of the 6-9 age range rely on an acceptance of the hadeeth they approve of as the basis for their claim. When hadeeth is presented which counters their contentions, their response is usually to proclaim that "their" hadeeth, fatwas and other interpretations are stronger/more correct. The issue with that defense is obvious... in doing so, they admit that hadeeth is NOT a foolproof, scientific phenomenon. Whereas Quranic scripture is open to interpretation, its actual basis is rock-solid... meaning interpretations can change, but the scriptural content does not. Once we admit this is the reality of the situation, we admit that the basis of their entire argument is flawed at best.

The main reason I have for pushing the line that I do is the fact that proponents of the 17-19 age range do the homework necessary to establish hadeeth based evidence, then cross-reference that with accepted, scientific chronological methodology (timelines, comparative analysis, reaching consensus with both Muslim and non-Muslim investigative parties) whereas the 6-9 crowd just keeps repeating their (already proven to be unreliable even by Islamic standards) hadeeth/fatwa based "evidence".

Also problematic for me is how vehement-yet-willfully-ignorant they become in defense of their position. You can see it for yourself here... even you eventually watched the video and are now entering into dialog rooted in an investigative perspective... seeking the truth one way or another. They simply deny, deflect, accuse and etc... paragraph after paragraph and post after post... their rebuttal continuously vacillates between "hadeeth says its right" and "look at what others are doing... look over there, not at ourselves and our own actions."

The elephant in the room for the 6-9 crowd then becomes... "If what I say is correct, then I find it acceptable for grown men to "marry" children who are not even aged into double digits RIGHT NOW... and for so long as humans live and the earth rotates." They are trapped between admitting this system of justification is faulty (and therefore invalid for allowing their problematic behavior) and admitting to the world that they find it acceptable for adults to r*pe children.

The video offered a basic presentation which address much of the 6-9 crowds contentions.. and it proves them wrong. So here is another article which address the issue even deeper: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/islamic-pedophelia_b_814332
It pretty much shreds their arguments. Here is a rebuttal piece authored by a 6-9 range apologist: https://wikiislam.github.io/wiki/Rejecting_Dr_David_Lieperts_Aisha_Was_Older_Apologetic_Myth.html

A stark confrontation for me was how Quran clearly states arraigned and forced marriages are forbidden. Point blank. Period. End of story. It was a radical notion at the time, but Quranic scripture is clear regarding the matter. The rebuttal authors pivot is to (surprise surprise) utilize hadeeth and other "interpretative evidence" to contend that these marriages ARE permissible in Islam. Im not sure how interactions w/people like this are productive because they are willfully violating divine scripture and utilizing man-made justifications to do so.

I thank you for being willing to examine the evidence and Im down to dialog with you or anyone else in an honest effort to see what we can uncover. Please also keep in mind that by Islamic standards, its both Muslim and non-Muslims RIGHT and even responsibility to ask questions such as these... if they can answer them then we can examine their answers... if they lie and insult instead of entering into honest dialog, whats the point of further communication with them eh?
 
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TempestOfTempo

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Doesn’t it state in the Quran that Muslims are allowed to lie? I believe it does, and they’ll never admit what really goes on behind their sordid, closed doors. Only an idiot would incriminate themselves! False facts exist in videos, on tv, and my Mommy told me to “never believe every single thing you see or hear..” :)
Each of the Big 3 monotheistic faiths have interpretations which allow for this. Perhaps I have it all wrong, but I reject those interpretations on a personal or professional level. To my understanding, the Islamic interpretation of this is regarding matters of personal saftey or in times of warfare. But personally, I reject the notion that I am allowed to lie to or abuse non-Muslims. We should be as fair and honest as possible with non-Muslims because its the right thing to do... but even from a purely selfish perspective, if we get in the habit of lying to/abusing "them" the same behavior will become directed at "us" as well. Indeed, we see this already in play.
 

TempestOfTempo

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Also the Qur'an states that those who take part in military jihad and are killed in the process, and consequently die fighting God's cause, will be granted a special status in paradise and thus become a martyr.
This is correct to my understanding. But the rules of engament must be adhered to. If the warrior violates the Islamic code of conduct regarding warfare, they lose such status.
 

Bubbajay

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The bible doesn't state anywhere its OK to lie or go back on promises or oaths. Rabbinic Judaism has a law that was written by a Judaic Rabbi called the Kol Nidre that says such. Its based on Rabbinic reasoning and law not biblical. Today's Judaics holy book is the Talmud not the bible. Its a totally different religion.

Please address the Quran verses about prepubescent girls in context of marriage and divorce. Its not just the hadith that promotes this.
 

TempestOfTempo

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The bible doesn't state anywhere its OK to lie or go back on promises or oaths. Rabbinic Judaism has a law that was written by a Judaic Rabbi called the Kol Nidre that says such. Its based on Rabbinic reasoning and law not biblical. Today's Judaics holy book is the Talmud not the bible. Its a totally different religion.
There are many versions (not just translations) of the Bible, some which have these types of allowances. I agree regarding the Talmud. Either way, we are getting off topic...
 

Bubbajay

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I'm not seeing any differences in the translations that change the meaning of the verses I quoted. They all alluded to the same thing. The verse I quoted was translated from the original Arabic.
 
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