Can God push us too far.

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Some more thoughts

I feel cursed to be honest. I think some people get alot more grace and I don't understand that.
I'm just starting to see the flaws in the polemic thinking of your evil doings being the result of your suffering.
Paul lived under very difficult circumstances and in a culture with its own set of temptations, but I still dont think it compares to what the church faces today. I dont think many of these older generations of Christians really have an idea of how binding and problematic allot of these newer inventions of evil are. They create bondage snd addiction on a scientific level. I cant speak for everyone, but I never had a father growing up and my mother and I had a distant and unorthodox relationship. I spent my teens and early twenties always inundating myself with video games, porn, and alcahol. There was an emptiness and brokeness inside of me cause of that which many Christians just cant relate to. I didnt even truly understand it until later in life how much it would affect me as an adult. It was that same despair and emptiness that led me to fill my life with such carnal quick fixes. These are some of the most addicting things known to man and when you pair them with a broken individual it becomes very difficult to fight against for years on end, especially given how accesible they are. I dont have a wife or kids so again it is a life that many Christians just cant relate to, because many are able to go home to a family at the end of the day. When you pair that lack with the temptations we have today the thought of going back to something that brings immediate satisfaction and inundation is very tempting and always there. This is especially so when as a Christian you can easily fall into depression. I have often felt frustrstion when speaking to some of the Christians who try to give advice, because I realize they just simply cannot relate to what its like to never really grow up with parents. They go home to their family every night. Now this isnt a pity party and I am not trying to generate sympathy, but I am just demonstrating that some Christians are asked to overcome allot more than others. There are handfuls of younger Christians I know who resorted to drugs in their early years and didnt really have parents like me. I see them on fire for the lord but Satan brings them back. Its very depressing to see. I believe in Gods grace and ability to sustain and set free, but the reality is that there are some Christians that have a greater struggle and allot more to overcome, allot more intense warfare on a day to day basis. The younger Christians have serious battles against ahead of them given the nature of the system they are being delivered from. These problems are deeper than theology and advice. That is why I said the thought of a prolonged life always battling the temptations of these things depresses me. Im on a smart phone and if I become overwhelmed with sorrow or grief which is normal for a Christian i can literally go back to my old ways in less than 2 seconds. I had to get rid of my computer cause when i felt depressed I would play video games. They were right there easy access within my home and it was an escape from reality. I couldn't figure out why i felt the way I felt, but I was unable to function properly. I knew it was keeping me from the lord so I sold it. It was like a drug. These are sins and problems the body of Christ just hasnt dealt with and allot of older middle class christians and pastors who came from good families and are married with kids just cant relate to. There were no smart phones back then, no high def televisions where entertainment becomes available at the leisure of your own home, there were none of the things back then that there are today. It is a different spiritual warfare that exists today, a more devestating one IMHO.
Exactly u really nailed it.

Everything is so accessible and what's worse people have become cold in my experience my family who were once supportive and loving have become intolerant of weakness, apathetic and a typical adage is "just trying to survive"

I see people getting "delivered" but even those involved in this are charging money or creating a following and it's not as easily accessible as they make out.

A family friend died recently he drank alot but after covid and things closing down he drank more your typical story point is, I know some of the most joyous people depressed right now. What do those who have depression have a chance. There is no answer to this question it's just a let down and I know why people take their own lives they have just had enough they can't go on anymore. I feel like that and my last shot was God it was something I looked to, to rescue me and it hasn't. My issues are complex and I don't want to go to personal but this is a hard hard life for me don't see the point anymore.
 

Lyfe

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LMAO.

Christians in Paul’s day were massacred, fed to lions and animals, burned alive, crucified and tortured, but please go on about how hard you have it in the modern age.

You all are desperate to be persecuted victims, I guess then your life would have meaning eh?
This may seem unbelievable to you, but I would have rather lived back then than during this age as a Christian. I want to serve and obey Christ so an age without these stumblingblocks is more preferred to me. I would have rather lived in an age where these things that exist today didnt exist. Thats just me though.

You dont seem to understand that to the Christian to live is Christ and to die is gain. Many knew their journey would end soon during persecutions and stonings and burnings. The thought and realization of soon going to be with Christ in paradise was always a comfort to them and many of them were converted and were slaugtered shortly after. Many lived long lives, but many also didnt live long enough to experiance the effects of long term Christian warfare.
 
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LMAO.

Christians in Paul’s day were massacred, fed to lions and animals, burned alive, crucified and tortured, but please go on about how hard you have it in the modern age.

You all are desperate to be persecuted victims, I guess then your life would have meaning eh?
A question to ask is how many people committed suicide in those days out of despair I mean I don't know I'm not a historian but has there ever been such an epidemic of suicides in human history as now ?

Or murder suicides.

Seems like everyday I look at the newspaper there is some story about a woman killing her kids then herself.
 

Lyfe

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@seekinheart

Sometimes what helps me is just getting in my car and driving around talking to God. Get a beverage you enjoy and just drive around and speak to God. Thats really all we can do when feeling this way.

I think there is much confusion to how life should be as a Christian. On one hand you have the gospel of prosperity and the notion of the american dream that teaches everyone is entitled to a good life and the pursuit of happiness, and then you have the actual gospel of Jesus Christ and what that teaches. The american gospel and gospel of Jesus Christ wage war in our heads. Both preach different and conflicting expectations. The american dream creates this expectations of happiness and a good life, but the gospel of Jesus Christ tells you that you will suffer as a child of God. Even Christ was a man of sorrows as it is written in the scriptures.


If you are truly in Christ then God is going to refine you and set you apart. He will not allow his people to become attached to this world and more often than not this detatchment is a very painful process. You want to enter into the door of prosperity and simply want what everyone else has, but God says no. He will allow you to feel pain and sadness so long as it keeps your heart from becoming attached to this world. This world has become such a stumblingblock to so many. Its easy to begin to love the world and the things of this world like the rest of the world even as a Christian. If you are brought to a point of sadness and dissapointment and hatred of the world and how things are then you are right where God wants you. There is only moving forward in Christ at that point, because you have fully acknowledged thr vanity and heartbreak of the world.
 

Oceanic

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Why do we need to be tortured in an eternity to satisfy Gods wrath on our sin. Why not obliterate it ?
As evil as many people are, including satan himself, they don't deserve a quick death, that's why. Us mere humans going against an extremely powerful almighty spirit? Hm. I can't help but to agree the evil ones deserve that- mainly the ones who rule kingdoms, the government, and sellouts.

Could one be pushed too far to the point where belief in God has been made almost impossible. Can God push us too far and if so why?
Yes, we can be pushed too far. Some of us have to fall all the way down in order to be made whole again. I too, do not like suffering BUT if I am going to learn something from it and be a better person than before, then I welcome my life lessons. I am disobedient to God sometimes because I'm not perfect. I get punished for it. I see what I did wrong. I try to do better until I make it a habit of doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

In some sense, we all have a role to play. If God pushes you too far to the point where you suddenly wake up and become a better person, isn't that GOOD? The only way it wouldn't be good is if you were evil and continued to willingly go against him. Then you are most definitely deserving of whatever your judgment is. And even that in itself, would be the fault of the HUMAN, not God.

In the Bible, David was a murderer, and God punished AND redeemed him. What is the point of life if we have no trial and error? We would be perfect, and wouldn't experience development. As sad as it is to know we all can't be loving to one another, I find that growth pertaining to us humans is more heavenly than if we were to be flawless.
 

Nikōn

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LMAO.

Christians in Paul’s day were massacred, fed to lions and animals, burned alive, crucified and tortured, but please go on about how hard you have it in the modern age.

You all are desperate to be persecuted victims, I guess then your life would have meaning eh?
@The Zone @Orwell's mentor "Ascending to Higher Levels of Consciousness with UFO tech" didn't leave after all, seems to still like this "dead internet forum". :D
 

voj

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I wanted to bring something up and that is the very nature of suffering in life and how I am really struggling with the idea of a good God. Now I have always heard this argument but it's clear I have never really suffered enough.

As much as I understand the concepts. For instance the paradox of. Live a good life, but do not value ur life here on earth. Look to the next life. But in the same breath is this life is bad. Do not moan or groan. Personally I have become confused on what or who God is.

I don't know if I'm being punished or being saved. I'm supposed to feel grateful for tragedy in life or at least resigned which is counterintuitive. I struggle to find a meaning in life when God makes himself almost impossible to detect in the journey of my life in a sense of the roadmap Is not your typical get saved and become okay.

I'm reminded of the man who wrote it is well with my soul - Horatio, but you know as much as I want it to be well with my soul that sentiment just doesn't cut it.

Then I look at some of the fates that have befallen people particularly rare diseases such as fatal familial insomnia, crutzefeld Jakob disease. And see immense suffering inflicted upon someone to the degree that I do not see a reason.

A big side of me just doesnt get it.

The wrath of God poured out on the cross, I just don't get it. Why do we need to be tortured in an eternity to satisfy Gods wrath on our sin. Why not obliterate it ?

I have accepted some of these things on faith without fully agreeing or understanding at times. Particularly when I am faced with my own suffering and my own circumstances and how unfailingly ironic the affliction has been. To the point that I'm surprised I do not go around living life in reverse in hopes of the opposite happening.

If God doesn't move in ur life and grant u peace or if he doesn't resolve whatever u have going In and instead wether it's ur fault or not further complexes issues u came to him to resolve for.

Could one be pushed too far to the point where belief in God has been made almost impossible. Can God push us too far and if so why?

Alot of the issues I feel Christians find hard to rectify are much easier to muse on and assert from a Christian view aslong as they are not actually happening.

I post this thread out of angst and frustration. And on a bit of a merry go round with faith. I don't see the plan, I mean I don't see the good, I don't see how the being allowing this CAN be good. And when I look at others suffering in this life either it means something or it doesnt this life and I just can't fully reconcile it right now and that's not to say I won't someday because without God my life feels even emptier but there's a certain satisfaction In the rebellion given that it intuitively what is happening and why just doesn't feel right.
God! God!! God!!! All for God. If Good Problematic, If Bad Problematic. Just One Word With Three Letter Word And Its Causing Chaos Among Men, Like Who Originate This Word? One Question With Multiple Answers Just Like This Thread, The Right Wants To Be Wright, The Wrong Wants To Be Wright, I Want To Be Wright, Everybody Wants To Be Wright, I Meant Right.

Why cant you see the problem is right in front of you and it becomes your problem when you imbibe it in your mind. Did you ever imagine for once that you'd exist? Listen, just learn, love, mate, rare children, give a fuck, avoid people you avoid evil, grow, smile at dying and you will realise that life goes on and you never really did exist after dying. But if you believe in the filtered version of God with multiple beliefs and believe christianity is the way forward just do you and dont stick to advices. Lke the same bible says - many will be deceived many will abadoned the word and do their wants. . .blah! Blah! Blah!.

To Me, i dont think God is all knowing, Why? Because everything would be precise with pure perfection no law, no judgement, no death, no rebellion, but due to his almost perfection the devil rebel and said no, do you ever for once imagine what that means? Well, think about it yourself.

To conclude this brief conversation in the bible book of revelation it makes no sense revelating a future event unless you want it to happen. Its more like having a brief imaginative understanding about the ending of a matter and realise it makes no sense.

I mean, we die be judged and go either heaven or hell. If heaven, no death, sickness, no hunger, just worship God forever? And if we dont abide in your word we end up in hell? Really! It Makes No Sense. . .Just Saying.
 

Lyfe

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God! God!! God!!! All for God. If Good Problematic, If Bad Problematic. Just One Word With Three Letter Word And Its Causing Chaos Among Men, Like Who Originate This Word? One Question With Multiple Answers Just Like This Thread, The Right Wants To Be Wright, The Wrong Wants To Be Wright, I Want To Be Wright, Everybody Wants To Be Wright, I Meant Right.

Why cant you see the problem is right in front of you and it becomes your problem when you imbibe it in your mind. Did you ever imagine for once that you'd exist? Listen, just learn, love, mate, rare children, give a fuck, avoid people you avoid evil, grow, smile at dying and you will realise that life goes on and you never really did exist after dying. But if you believe in the filtered version of God with multiple beliefs and believe christianity is the way forward just do you and dont stick to advices. Lke the same bible says - many will be deceived many will abadoned the word and do their wants. . .blah! Blah! Blah!.

To Me, i dont think God is all knowing, Why? Because everything would be precise with pure perfection no law, no judgement, no death, no rebellion, but due to his almost perfection the devil rebel and said no, do you ever for once imagine what that means? Well, think about it yourself.

To conclude this brief conversation in the bible book of revelation it makes no sense revelating a future event unless you want it to happen. Its more like having a brief imaginative understanding about the ending of a matter and realise it makes no sense.

I mean, we die be judged and go either heaven or hell. If heaven, no death, sickness, no hunger, just worship God forever? And if we dont abide in your word we end up in hell? Really! It Makes No Sense. . .Just Saying.
Just because something doesnt make sense to you doesnt mean its not true. Truth and facts never bend to people or their inability to grasp something.
 

voj

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One of the world's most righteous man Job... one day God accepted the devil's challenge and said: Do to him what you will except kill him.

The beautiful soul who was Job... crushed just like that.

God accepting a challenge. L0L


Happy ending.
I imagined this moment and it was odd, why would a God play with his own creation. Life is a setup and we are all playing the game.
 

voj

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Just because something doesnt make sense to you doesnt mean its not true. Truth and facts never bend to people or their inability to grasp something.
Thats The Complexicity Of The Situation, Like I Earlier Stated - We All Want To Be RIGHT.

If one dont learn about something how would you grasp its understanding? When something is strange we react because we dont understand it, but once we'd understand it understanding it becomes nothing to us, this is why God had to stay hidden in plainsight for the rest of forever because if anybody knows it secrets it becomes nothing.
 

Lyfe

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Thats The Complexicity Of The Situation, Like I Earlier Stated - We All Want To Be RIGHT.

If one dont learn about something how would you grasp its understanding? When something is strange we react because we dont understand it, but once we'd understand it understanding it becomes nothing to us, this is why God had to stay hidden in plainsight for the rest of forever because if anybody knows it secrets it becomes nothing.
We all want to be right, but we all cant be right. Jesus said he is the only way to heaven. That statement is either true or false.
 

voj

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We all want to be right, but we all cant be right. Jesus said he is the only way to heaven. That statement is either true or false.
Because of that statement look what we have become, adding our own edifinition like the advanced oxford dictionary with different edition.

Whats the essence of serving a God that was disobeyed by the same energy given to a spiritual creation?
 

Lyfe

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Because of that statement look what we have become, adding our own edifinition like the advanced oxford dictionary with different edition.

Whats the essence of serving a God that was disobeyed by the same energy given to a spiritual creation?
If you really break it down by serving God we are really serving and loving one another. His ways lead to life and peace.

The alternative is when people serve themselves. That hasnt gone very well, has it?
 

TokiEl

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I imagined this moment and it was odd, why would a God play with his own creation. Life is a setup and we are all playing the game.
The devil said to God that Job is righteous because he has a good life.

If Job lost his good life the devil said he would not be so pious.


The devil asked to test Job... and God concured.

Go do what you will except kill him.
 

redqueen

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I don't know how something grafted to make a believer confront these difficult existential questions head-on could be used to control people when it requires the opposite of the cowardly running away and hiding that typifies the approach (to the same problems) that you present and on this forum are an avatar of.
"Suffering gives us no special rights." - Albert Camus
There is a similar topic here SeekinHeart
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/none-of-this-make-any-sense.9264/

Nikon
I also suggested that the "good book"
Could be our very first way to control the masses
By designing a beautiful escape from this life
Of course this is your good n do what god tells you to

its a parent using bribery to get a child to behave

As I mentioned before in the above thread
That God himself tells you he is a wrathful god
that will visit suffering
on generations for the sins of one
A god that murdered the first born for the sins of others
A god that sent plague and much much more
for the sins of others that still took the innocent with them
Of course we are supposed to believe they went to the beautiful place
I guess that's only if they were not breaking any of the 10
Who knows

As for god pushing too far

I personally no longer believe the way I once did
For similar reasons as you
I do not see the purpose of all the innocents suffering
My own experiences also contributed to my nonbelief
Now I do my very best
To treat others the way I would like for them to treat me
All we have control over is ourselves

I also find it hard to accept that so long as someone repents their evil deeds asks for forgiveness they are saved,go to heaven
So someone like hitler
which I am at least somewhat sure
We can all agree is pure evil
Can repent n ask for god or Jesus to come into his heart
Then all is forgiven he then goes to heaven
Sorry to me it's just not right
Why even have a so called hell
if even the worst the worst get a shot at redemption
 
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Lyfe

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So you dont believe in God because you view him as cruel and the fact that suffering exists must automatically mean there is no God?

Or you just reject him for allowing so much suffering?
 

TokiEl

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This book illustrates beautifully the fact that God is the one who prepares the "good works" for you to walk in them-- it is not of ourselves. Legalism, though popular-- especially with the Catholic church-- is nonsense.
James 2 14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that? 17So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action, is dead.



God prepares situations where we can prove our faith with good works.
 

redqueen

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I don't believe in the bible
as it's been rewritten by man how many times
Why I suggested it could be used as a control tool
As I stated in the other thread
My beliefs are mine
I am sharing my opinion of this topic
I am not saying those who believe are wrong
I have explained this in the thread I shared
I am doing what I believe is what we are meant to do
Be as good as you can be
We are imperfect
as we were made in the image of our "creator"
I believe it makes our creator imperfect as well
I do not believe you need a book or a building
to be spiritual or to be good
I know right from wrong
I have a moral compass to guide me in my choices
I know death is not final as I have died a few times
be it short times
It was enough to allow me to know the end is not the end
Something is after this
Whether you believe in the manmade stories
that we are told is the word and journey of our creator and his child
Does not make them true
Lost in translation is what the book is to me
If it ever existed
it is so far removed from the original
That the truth is gone gone from it
Except what the remakers want us to know

As I stated a few times now
Treat people the way you want them to treat you
It's all we can control
 
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TokiEl

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Why even have a so called hell
if even the worst the worst get a shot at redemption
Matthew 25 41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


A so called hell was made for the devil and his angels.
 
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