Christian viewpoints and "supporting israel"

[Floridafoot]

The version i've studied does not say He returns all the way to the earth for the rapture, but calls His saints up to join Him. He does not touch down until the very end of the tribulation.

This version seems to me like they are trying to split hairs to make it align with what they are espousing. I tend to agree with @phipps that Jesus comes back only once.

 

[Floridafoot]

don't know if you're familiar with marching to Zion . While i dont agree with anderson's unbiblical teachings (unrelated to anything diacussed in the film) this documentary is quite eye opening.

I'm about halfway through. It is interesting but I see why you don't fully align with the opinions of creators of the documentary. I love how they're saying "the Jews don't believe in any of the old testament!" They present, as evidence, two Jewish men. Hard to argue that two men represent all of the Jews. Of course there are many others who agree with what these Jewish men believe. There are the men who wrote the Talmud. But there are many Jews who reject this book and it's teachings.

 

[phipps]

Seems to be referring to the Church. The "Jew" that is being referred to here (imo) is an ethnic or practicing Jew that accepts Christ as the Messiah. That's why they are listed alongside of Greeks, barbarians, Scythian and so on. I feel I should clarify I do believe there are ethnic Jews. But it appears to me that probably many people have some Jewish ancestry somewhere. And that modern Jewish bloodlines are so intermingled that only God will be able to discern who the 12,000 are from each tribe.

Well yes, the Jews spoken of in Colossians 3 are ethnic Jews. But the point Paul is making is that whether a person is Jewish or not is not important. What is important is that they accept and have faith in Jesus. That is why Paul says, "but Christ is all and in all."

The 144,000 will not be ethnic Jews. Israel in the New Covenant is not about genetics, its about faith. That is why Gentiles are part of Israel. Its is spiritual Israel.

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

Then what do we make of Romans 11:25?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul is dealing with his fellow Jewish people here who do not at the present time believe in Jesus. Those who are under a partial (temporary) hardness or blindness, until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.

In verse 26 he says, "And so all Israel will be saved." Paul's use of "all" does not mean every Israelite or Jewish person as the English word would seem to imply. Paul is referring to all meaning the whole of the redeemed of Israel of whom he is is part of. Paul clearly looks forward to the day when his people will turn and believe in his Messiah Jesus.

What is "the fullness of the gentiles" that needs to be fulfilled before the blindness is removed from Israel?
If Israel is synonymous with the church, then is the church blind until the fulness of the gentiles?

“The fullness of the Gentiles” means when the gospel has been preached everywhere. The gospel has been preached to all the world.

But in my view, yes, the believing Jews became part of the church.

Okay. That is the truth of God's word.

Im just saying that i believe that a remnant of the Jews will come to believe on Jesus Christ during the tribulation. After the remaining gentiles that are able to be saved are saved.

Biblically, God's people/the church/Israel will be right here on earth during the tribulation. When Christ returns He will save everyone who is righteous and there won't be a second chance for anyone to change their minds after wards.

The Bible tells us when Jesus returns, He will return with our rewards, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12). He won't reward people who will have a chance to change their minds later. Our eternal destinies will have already been decided before Jesus comes back the second time.

So the Jews have the same chance as Gentiles to come to believe in Christ and they have to do it before probation closes. I have a thread on this too here.

I didn't say they are more important, i've said theyre different groups.

They are because they are getting a special chance to come to believe in Jesus apart from the time the Gentiles have. Plus Jesus is treating them differently to the Gentiles. The Jews are getting special privileges.

Biblically there are not different groups. Also everyone will have chosen who they worship before Jesus returns. This announcement will go out in heaven before Jesus returns, "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still” (Revelation 22:11).

But im not even talking about the (pre tribulation, i assume?) rapture.

Doesn't pre-trib teach that the church (the Gentiles) is going to be whisked away first, then Jesus comes later? And won't the Jews have a time when they will have to come to Jesus separate from the Gentiles?

There's different versions of dispensationalist teaching, if i remember correctly we've discussed this before but i cant remember on which thread. Ive never read scofield, and the references i've read actually claim scofield (or whoever ghostwrote for him) got many things wrong.

I know there are different versions of dispensationalism. They are all not biblical. There could be some truth in it but as long as it is mixed with untruths, its unbiblical. All Christians should avoid dispensationalist teaching because the Bible becomes confusing and contradicts itself with it.

The version i've studied does not say He returns all the way to the earth for the rapture, but calls His saints up to join Him. He does not touch down until the very end of the tribulation.

But does He return again? Biblically when Jesus returns the one time for the second time, His feet will not touch the earth. The righteous dead will be raised from the dead and together with those that are alive, they will meet Him in the air.

Those are good points regarding tribes intermingling.
But if the 144,000 is separate from the great multitude then who is the multitude if the 144,000 is spiritual Jews (im assuming you mean the church by this?)

Revelation 14:1-5 talks about the 144,000. Verses 4-5 say, "These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God."

As I mentioned in my previous post, virginity means purity in a spiritual sense. So the 144,000 have not been defiled by women. Since this is symbolic language, women means other churches. They've not been defiled by false doctrines from false churches.

We are told that they are also "firstfruits."

This is taken from this post from my thread about the 144,000.

"What is meant by the firstfruits? It means first in importance, not necessarily the first in regard to time. Jesus Christ is described as "the firstfruits of them that slept" (the dead), 1 Corinthians 15:20. Jesus was not the first to rise from the dead but He was the first in importance to rise from the dead. Because of His resurrection, all others can be raised. "Because I live, you will live also" John 14:19. In the Old Testament the firstfruits were the best fruits or the chief fruits of the crop, not necessarily the earliest of the fruit.

Numbers 18:12, “All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the Lord, them have I given thee."

Ezekiel 44:30, "And the first of all the firstfruits of all things..."

This means then that the 144,00 are not just the first to be reaped, in the great harvest at the Second Advent of Christ, but they also represent the best of the harvest. The 144,000 are without fault.

Revelation 14:5, "And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

This tells us what God plans to accomplish with the last generation of believers.

I hope this explains the 144,000 (there is more about them on my thread about them). They are separate from (the multitude) which will be mixed with both Jews and Gentiles too because of what they've been through.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

There are some super devout, God loving Jews out there. They don't follow the Talmud. They faithfully obey the Law of the Torah. I believe these people are separate from the Church and that God appreciates their obedience, but wants them to accept his Son who they have rejected.

My whole thing about this is that once the temple was destroyed it was no longer possible to offer sacrifices there, so they couldn't follow the Torah and sacrificial Law. But, just as they had a tent/tabernacle in the wilderness long before the tent, in theory they could have continued to offer sacrifices. If i remember correctly there is a Jewish sect which offers sacrifices in the form of chickens once a year, i think it's called kapparot.

Kapparot - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

But that's not what's laid out in the Torah...

As for Torah only following people, i heard there is a people who are descendants of the Samaritans and they don't follow the talmud, just the Torah. But as far as i know none that call themselves Jews reject the Talmud.

That said, among talmud followers theres different degrees of evil. Or rather, the degree of influence that their evil has on the world. I once started reading about a rabbi* who taught to be as evil as possible in order to bring on the return of the messiah - there are definitely some parallels there to satanism and also the new age ideology of everything is just an "experience" with no objective right or wrong.

*jacob frank

Frankism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[phipps]

I forgot to mention the most important part about the 144,000. The Bible tells us that they've been through the tribulation in Revelation 7:14, "And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." The end time trials and great tribulation are going to be severe for the last generation of true Christians in this world. They will experience what no other generation has ever experienced in this world. This will develop in the 144,000, characters that will become more like Christ’s character than that of any prior generation of saints. They will reach a character maturity that will reveal that they have won the battle over evil.

They will hate sin intensely that they would rather die than sin. The degree of character development will be different to that of the multitude.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

I'm about halfway through. It is interesting but I see why you don't fully align with the opinions of creators of the documentary. I love how they're saying "the Jews don't believe in any of the old testament!" They present, as evidence, two Jewish men. Hard to argue that two men represent all of the Jews. Of course there are many others who agree with what these Jewish men believe. There are the men who wrote the Talmud. But there are many Jews who reject this book and it's teachings.

Yeah, i think he was really trying to get it through to people that the vast majority of Jews are not practicing the religion of the Old Testament, nor are they descended from Abraham in any particular way, so how are they Jews?

Given that his denomination is one of the few evangelical ones that is not zionist, and yet is cery socially comservative, i can see them growing in popularity in light of the recent events.

I've watched a few of his sermons, and some of his unbiblical doctrines really push people away. He teaches that anyone who's ever had any form of same sex attraction, even if not acted upon, is a reprobate and unable to be saved (while simultaneously saying that the gospel should be preached to all sinners..), that any husband who allows his wife to go to a male doctor is not right with God, that all forms of birth control are a sin (not unhealthy, but a sin), that Christians don't have to repent of their sins, that headcoverings for women are forbidden. I forget what else, but that was enough nonsense for me.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Paul is dealing with his fellow Jewish people here who do not at the present time believe in Jesus. Those who are under a partial (temporary) hardness or blindness, until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.

In verse 26 he says, "And so all Israel will be saved." Paul's use of "all" does not mean every Israelite or Jewish person as the English word would seem to imply. Paul is referring to all meaning the whole of the redeemed of Israel of whom he is is part of. Paul clearly looks forward to the day when his people will turn and believe in his Messiah Jesus.

“The fullness of the Gentiles” means when the gospel has been preached everywhere. The gospel has been preached to all the world.

Would you say this means that once the gospel is preached to the whole world THEN the blindness of the nonbelieving Jews will be lifted?

Doesn't pre-trib teach that the church (the Gentiles) is going to be whisked away first, then Jesus comes later? And won't the Jews have a time when they will have to come to Jesus separate from the Gentiles?

Yeah, but i dont believe in pre trib rapture.
So i wasn't basing my points on why i think the church and Israel are different on that.

But does He return again? Biblically when Jesus returns the one time for the second time, His feet will not touch the earth. The righteous dead will be raised from the dead and together with those that are alive, they will meet Him in the air.

But what about when He stands on mt Sion?
Revelation 14
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads

As I mentioned in my previous post, virginity means purity in a spiritual sense. So the 144,000 have not been defiled by women. Since this is symbolic language, women means other churches. They've not been defiled by false doctrines from false churches.

I had not heard that before, interesting.
So the 144,000 have not fallen for any false doctrines, perhaps the multitude have but are still saved?
I'll take a look at some of your other posts.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Interesting article, goes into the history of Christian zionism in much detail.

I had no idea darby was a freemason satanist, and had written his own Bible.

WARNING: there is a very graphic photo of a dead child about halfway through the article, if anyone reads the full article at the link

The War on Christianity, Part II: The Abomination and Blasphemy of Christian Zionism | James Perloff

Christian Zionism is based on a multitude of lies. The bigger the onion, the more the layers we are forced to peel off. I should also note that my paternal ancestors were Russian Jews.

jamesperloff.net

Part 1 of this series explored how the Rockefellers were instrumental in orchestrating the Modernist movement, assaulting every fundamental doctrine of Christianity, for the long-range ecumenical purpose of absorbing it into a one-world religion. The Fundamentalist movement rejected Modernism, intending to stand by the faith’s original tenets.

Unfortunately, as we will now see, Fundamentalism was itself infiltrated and hijacked, consistent with the Rothschild strategy of funding both sides of wars. Fundamentalist churches were targeted to enlist their support for the Zionist agenda. The two principal agents in this scheme were John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) and Cyrus Scofield (1843-1921). What Darby planted, Scofield watered and disseminated. The theology they developed served the agenda by making several claims:

• God wanted the Jews to return to, and take over, Palestine.
• God has two plans of salvation—one through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the other a guarantee reserved for Jews, his “Chosen People.”
• Christians should not involve themselves in politics, education, business or the arts, as these are “worldly” matters that should be left in the hands of “worldly” people. (The consequences of this doctrine are very visible in American culture today.)
• God deals with mankind differently during different historical time frames or “dispensations,” of which there are seven. The current one, “Grace” under Jesus Christ, is merely the sixth of the seven dispensations.
• The Christian Church is doomed to inevitable failure, which will bring the Dispensation of Grace to a close.
• The end of this dispensational age will be marked by the Tribulation—worldwide persecution under the Antichrist for a period of seven years; however, Christians need not concern themselves with this, since Jesus will “Rapture” believers off the Earth and they won’t be around to experience it.
• Earth will then experience a Jewish era; Jewish ritualistic animal sacrifices will be reinstituted; Jesus will reign for a thousand years from Solomon’s rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.

These doctrines, whose main outcome was “Christian Zionism,” might seem boring to atheists and agnostics, but they are nonetheless exceedingly relevant to the state of the world. They are espoused by celebrity-status theologians like Hal Lindsey, Pat Robertson and John Hagee, in the best-selling Left Behind book series, and are prevailing views in many conservative evangelical churches. Without these ideas being sweepingly disseminated, there might have been no Israeli state created in 1948, no 9/11, and no Middle East wars.

...
Before examining Scofield’s life, we should note a little about John Nelson Darby, the principle figure from whom Scofield borrowed his Biblical analysis. Darby was a Satanist, Freemason and agent of the Rothschild-owned British East India Company,1 the latter being the most powerful multinational corporation of its day and the supplier that turned millions of Chinese into opium addicts. Darby’s family owned Leap Castle, renowned as the most sinister and occult castle in Ireland’s history.

Darby became a leader of a Christian sect called the Plymouth Brethren (named for Plymouth, England, where its most popular gatherings were held). He is generally credited with originating the “Secret Rapture” doctrine and made several trips to America to spread his ideas.

Darby used many terms in common with occult Theosophists—he referred to Jesus as “the coming one” (same term New Agers use for the Antichrist); referred to God as the “architect” (same phrase employed by Freemasons, meaning “God” for the uninitiated, “Lucifer” to true adepts); and many other occult phrases, as summarized in this article.

Darby even penned his own satanic version of the Bible. The Illuminati have always known they could not perform a wholesale transformation of the Bible, because it would be recognized as such and rejected. Therefore the approach through the centuries has been to whittle it away: a word here, a phrase there—the universal strategy of boiling the frog.

Darby slyly introduced satanic wording into the Biblical text. For example, in the King James rendering of John 6:69, Peter told Jesus: “And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.” Darby rendered this: “And we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God.” “Holy one of God” is a title used for Jesus only by demons in the King James. For a comprehensive review of Darby’s satanic mistranslations, see the article John Nelson Darby Version: Doctrinal Changes to the Holy Bible.


In 1897, Theodore Herzl began hosting the Rothschild-backed Zionist congresses in Switzerland, developing the plan for Zionist takeover of Palestine. Knowing this scheme would require Christian approval, in 1904 Herzl approached Pope Pius X, who very politely told him what he could do with his plan. After Catholic rejection, the Rothschilds knew Protestant support would be essential. But this could only be achieved by tampering with the Bible to make it appear God himself had ordained that Jews retake Palestine. Such a Bible would have to come from a non-Jew, someone with credentials as a theologian. Thus emerged Cyrus Scofield and his reference Bible.
...
When the Scofields left England, they moved to Switzerland, where, according to Trumbull, Scofield did nine months of “solid work” on his reference Bible. But why Switzerland? Although John Calvin’s library was there, it was not a very logical place to research and write a reference Bible. It was, however, a center of Freemasonic and covert banking activities, and, perhaps most importantly, where Theodor Herzl hosted the early Zionist congresses.

Scofield came back to America in 1905. In 1906 he returned to England (and according to some sources, Switzerland again). In 1907, Scofield signed his publishing contract at the New York City office of Oxford University Press, and his reference Bible was first published in January 1909.

One immediately notices the volume was produced with astonishing swiftness. For most men, a reference Bible would have required a lifetime’s work. All the more remarkable: Scofield had no seminary or university training, and was not formally schooled in the languages that ancient Biblical texts are written in—Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic.


Were, then, some of Scofield’s notes dictated to him by other parties? Even if not, reviewing the Bible makes it evident that Scofield borrowed heavily from John Nelson Darby, James Brookes, and other early proponents of Plymouth Brethren-Dispensational theology. Scofield would undoubtedly have preferred to use Darby’s satanic Bible version, or a Hort-Westcott modernized translation. But since the Zionists wanted to reach the largest cross-section of Fundamentalists, the King James was employed. As James Whisler notes:

Cyrus wanted to use the bible of his heroes, Westcott and Hort, for this project. However, he knew that due to the prominence of the KJV and the meager results of the Revised Version sales, that his dispensationalist teachings would never get anywhere if coupled with the R.V. So he used the KJV, but he subtly showed his contempt for it and his reverence for the Revised Version. This is how he did it. Everywhere that the King James disagreed with the Revised Version in an area of doctrinal importance, Cyrus inserted a footnote stating the KJV was incorrect and he always offered a “more correct” rendering which was almost always identical to the RV.13

Although his reference Bible was first published in 1909, that edition is virtually impossible to find today. It was the revised 1917 edition that was hyper-marketed, with limitless advertising, by Oxford University Press, selling millions of copies. Is it only coincidence that 1917 was also the year of the Balfour Declaration, by which Britain’s government pledged to Lord Walter Rothschild and the Zionist Federation to establish a “national home” for the Jews in Palestine? The simultaneous mass-marketing of Scofield’s Bible would make it appear that God himself had cosigned the Declaration, and “prophecy was being fulfilled” before believers’ eyes.
...
Scofield also made it appear that the Bible prophesied a future return of the Jews to Palestine, in order to give the Balfour Declaration, and Israel’s eventual statehood, the illusion of “fulfilled prophecies.” His notes proclaimed:

The gift of the land is modified by prophecies of three dispossessions and restorations . . . . Two dispossessions and restorations have been accomplished. Israel is now in the third dispersion, from which she will be restored at the return of the Lord as King under the Davidic Covenant.18

Scofield’s claim of three restorations is unscriptural. The Bible prophesies only two restorations: the Hebrews’ original journey from Egypt to the Promised Land under Moses; and the return from the exile in Babylon described in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. To support his claim, Scofield used verses referring to the Ezra-Nehemiah return, or to the coming of Christ, but nowhere does the Bible forecast a third return of the Jews to Palestine, unless ones uses (as Scofield did) imaginative leaps of logic.

A cardinal rule of Scofield Dispensationalism: claim that if any Biblical prophecy was not fulfilled in the past, it still awaits future fulfillment. Of God’s promise to give Abraham’s seed the land from the Nile to the Euphrates, Scofield wrote: “It is important to see that the nation has never as yet taken the land under the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant, nor has it ever possessed the whole land.”19

“Important,” Scofield? Important to whom? Only to your Zionist masters. Although it is claimed that the conquests described in the book of Joshua did not give the Hebrews the whole land, and thus left God’s promise to Abraham “unfulfilled” until the future, a careful reading of the Bible disproves this. Joshua 21:43-45 declares:

And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

1 Kings 4:21 testifies that the Israelites ruled the entire area Herzl envisioned as “Greater Israel”:

And Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the Euphrates River to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt. These countries brought tribute and were Solomon’s subjects all his life.

Thus the Bible itself refutes Scofield’s claim that the promise was never fulfilled, allegedly justifying the modern Zionist takeover of Palestine.
...
Moreover, we now know that most people identifying as Jews are probably (as Finley noted above) not descendants of Abraham, but of the Khazars, a Turkic people who made Judaism their state religion in the eighth century AD. Jewish author Arthur Koestler pioneered historical evidence for this in his 1976 book The Thirteenth Tribe, research since affirmed by DNA evidence. The significance? If most “Jewish” occupiers of Palestine aren’t Abraham’s descendants, then they are not his seed, and thus not entitled to the land, even under the terms of Scofield’s twisted theology.

• The “Judeo-Christian” myth. Most evangelical Christians harbor the illusion that religious Jews today are adherents of the Old Testament. They believe they as Christians live in “Judeo-Christian” harmony with Jews who share the same essential values.

Of course, one cannot stereotype Jews, many of whom (like my late father) are non-religious, have no interest in Zionism, and assimilate into other cultures. However, when referring to organized Judaism, it is important to understand that religious Jews follow the Talmud, which rabbis consider senior to the Tanakh (Old Testament of the Christian Bible). Jesus consistently directed his most severe censures against the Pharisees, the teachers of the oral law, which they used to nullify the laws of God. After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, dispersed Jews continued teaching the oral law, eventually written down as the Talmud. Over the centuries it evolved, becoming many times more evil than in Jesus’s day.
...
Today, many Christians are perplexed as to why their congregations are shrinking. The reasons, of course, are multidimensional, and include numerous factors outside the church itself, such as inculcation of Darwinism in public schools, and Hollywood’s stereotyping of Christians as repugnant.

But much of the problem lies within the churches. Today, many truths about world events are freely available through alternative media. When informed newcomers come to a Sunday service, and see that a pastor, whose brain is hardwired to mainstream media, knows less about geopolitical truths than they do, will they trust that pastor to edify them about eternal truths? When they hear a pastor praising Israel despite decades of atrocities, and that the pastor thus excuses murder and theft, unable to distinguish fundamental right from wrong, will they trust this pastor to lead them toward righteousness?



This last part sums up why i made this thread. I think this unconditional support of israel will push people away from hearing the gospel...

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

nowhere does the Bible forecast a third return of the Jews to Palestine, unless ones uses (as Scofield did) imaginative leaps of logic.

A cardinal rule of Scofield Dispensationalism: claim that if any Biblical prophecy was not fulfilled in the past, it still awaits future fulfillment. Of God’s promise to give Abraham’s seed the land from the Nile to the Euphrates, Scofield wrote: “It is important to see that the nation has never as yet taken the land under the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant, nor has it ever possessed the whole land.”19

“Important,” Scofield? Important to whom? Only to your Zionist masters. Although it is claimed that the conquests described in the book of Joshua did not give the Hebrews the whole land, and thus left God’s promise to Abraham “unfulfilled” until the future, a careful reading of the Bible disproves this. Joshua 21:43-45 declares:

1 Kings 4:21 testifies that the Israelites ruled the entire area Herzl envisioned as “Greater Israel”:

I have to admit that i am a believer that all the prophecies in the Bible will be fulfilled if they havent already (i just dont happen to believe that the country of israel is synonymous with israel)

So.
Did Israel already at any given time rule from the nile to the euphrates or not?

I read KJV, so i've never seen this mentioned.

1 Kings 4
21And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life

Other versions mention euphrates

1 Kings 4:21 - Solomon's Wealth

And Solomon reigned over all the kingdoms from the Euphrates to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt. These kingdoms offered tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.

biblehub.com

This site says no, but by now i have noticed a definite zionist bias

Has Israel’s territory ever encompassed the promise in Joshua 1:4? | GotQuestions.org

Has Israel’s territory ever encompassed the promise in Joshua 1:4? Has Israel ever controlled all of the land God promised?

www.gotquestions.org

would not be until 1948 that the modern nation of Israel was established following World War II. Now, more than sixty years later, Israel has become a thriving nation and the longest-established democracy in the Middle East. Yet many of its neighbors remain hostile, and a Palestinian movement seeks to develop its own nation within the borders of modern Israel’s territory.

The Bible teaches that God will eventually fulfill the promise to give Israel full control over the Promised Land. Israel’s full territory will ultimately be ruled by the Messiah during the Millennium (Revelation 20:1–6). God’s promises, partly fulfilled throughout history, will have complete, literal, fulfillment prior to God’s creation of new heavens and a new earth (Revelation 21—22; cf. Psalm 72:8).

This site says sort of, but it doesn't count...

Did Israel Rule All the Promised Land?

Did ancient Israel ever possess and rule ALL of the Promised Land? Which areas were never fully conquered?

www.biblestudy.org

David's reign was surpassed in glory, riches and honor by his son (1Chronicles 29:25). While the below verse seems to indicate that Solomon was finally able to possess all the land promised to Israel, a closer study shows otherwise.

Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the Euphrates River to the land of the Philistines and as far as the border of Egypt. They offered tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life (1Kings 4:21, HCSB).

Note that 1Kings 4:21 states that Solomon dominated KINGDOMS, which presupposes they still existed as separate entities apart from Israel! As vassal states and unconquered peoples (1Kings 9:20 - 21) they paid him tribute (gold, silver, etc.) in recognition of his unparalleled wisdom (1Kings 4:30 - 31, 10:23). They were not, however, territories annexed by Solomon.

". . . for not all this territory was incorporated into the geographic boundaries of Israel; many of the subjected kingdoms retained their identity and territory but paid taxes (tribute) to Solomon" (Bible Knowledge Commentary on 1Kings 4:21).

I don't know what to think...
On the one hand the tribes originally didnt expel all the canaanites from their land, so i dont see how that is different from Solomon's reign.

 

[Floridafoot]

At the end of the day God is sovereign. All the horrible things that are going on are part of His plan or they wouldn't be happening at all. It is hard to get ones head around it.

Isaiah 10:15
15 Shall the axe boast over him who hews with it,

or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it?

As if a rod should wield him who lifts it,

or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood!

So the Scripture sums it up here. God uses evil men to perform his will. That is why He, in His infinite wisdom, created such a man. However, we are not to delight in suffering of any kind. And those who use God's Word to minimize, even take pleasure in, the suffering of others are deceived.

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

Would you say this means that once the gospel is preached to the whole world THEN the blindness of the nonbelieving Jews will be lifted?

It will be opened to Jews and Gentiles who are receptive to the Holy Spirit. Paul wanted all the Jews to accept Jesus but even he knew that was not possible. Its not possible that entire people groups will accept Jesus and be saved and that includes the Jews.

Yeah, but i dont believe in pre trib rapture.
So i wasn't basing my points on why i think the church and Israel are different on that.

Okay.

But what about when He stands on mt Sion?
Revelation 14
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads

Revelation 14 uses symbolic language and John is in vision too and its not about Jesus' second return.

At the second return the saints will meet Christ “in the air.” However when He returns the third time after the 1000 years with all the saints in the Holy city, New Jerusalem, it will settle where the mount of Olives now stands (Zechariah 14:5, Revelation 21:2-3).

I had not heard that before, interesting.
So the 144,000 have not fallen for any false doctrines, perhaps the multitude have but are still saved?

People will be saved according to how much truth they knew and how they lived up to it. The 144,000 living at the end time will untouched by false doctrine, yes.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

However when He returns the third time after the 1000 years with all the saints in the Holy city, New Jerusalem, it will settle where the mount of Olives now stands (Zechariah 14:5, Revelation 21:2-3).

You do believe in the earthly millenium reign?
I dont know if the millenium reign is considered part of dispensationalism or not. Seems non zionist people, who tend to not be dispensationalist, believe it doesn't refer to a literal 1000 year earthly reign.

For example, another excerpt from the article i quoted/linked earlier

The War on Christianity, Part II: The Abomination and Blasphemy of Christian Zionism | James Perloff

Christian Zionism is based on a multitude of lies. The bigger the onion, the more the layers we are forced to peel off. I should also note that my paternal ancestors were Russian Jews.

jamesperloff.net

By claiming Jesus shall return at the end of the current age, instead of the end of the world, Scofield and his cohorts created a scenario by which the Antichrist could proclaim himself Christ, then rule the Earth during the next “age,” through the very world government the Illuminati have been building.

Scofield wrote in his reference Bible: “Upon His return the King will restore the Davidic monarchy in His own person, re-gather dispersed Israel, establish His power over all the earth, and reign one thousand years.”41

But could Lucifer really arrive in a way that would persuade Christians he was Jesus? Certainly. The apostle Paul, when describing false apostles, wrote: “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” (2 Corinthians 11:14). Can he appear to do miracles? The Bible says, “Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.” (2 Thessalonians 2:9). This would be especially easy with the high tech now available, such as the capacity to project holograms, which can be fashioned in the image of angels as easily as anything else.

As Emma Moore Weston notes:

This Scofield teaching is concerned with a literal Jewish kingdom to last for a millennium. . . . The Bible does not teach it . . . We must ask ourselves if Jesus ever offered or announced himself as an earthly King or claimed David’s throne? Had he ever in any way suggested he was going to set up an earthly kingdom? He said to Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews, but now is my kingdom not from hence.”42

The Israelites of Jesus’s day wanted a political Messiah, a king who would liberate them from Rome. Jesus rejected it:

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. (John 6:15)

Scofield and “Christian Zionists” reject both the character of Jesus and the Bible’s clear teaching by anticipating Him as an earthly king. They repeat the exact same error people in Israel made two thousand years ago.

Most Christians today believe that when they die, they will dwell in heaven with Jesus forever. But if Jesus is to rule on Earth for a thousand years, while they were in heaven they would be separated from their Savior all that time. Yes, Scofieldism=confusion.

Many churches today affirm, in their “what we believe” statements, that Jesus will return to rule Earth for a millennium. Yet only one passage in the entire Bible refers to Jesus reigning a thousand years: Revelation 20:1-6. I think it dangerous for any church to base a core doctrine on a single scripture passage, especially given the general consensus that the book of Revelation contains considerable symbolic language. As this post is already very long, I won’t elaborate here on Revelation 20, but I refer the reader to Appendix IV, “The Millennium,” of my book Truth Is a Lonely Warrior.


For a number of years, I attended a fundamentalist church. One day, the associate pastor was teaching from the Old-Testament book of Ezekiel (in which God gave the prophet Ezekiel instructions on the building of a temple). The teacher told us that, since Ezekiel’s temple was never built, it must be constructed in the future, and that Jewish animal sacrifices would be restored. He said that after Jesus returned, he would reign from this temple for 1,000 years.

I was amazed at this teaching, because the New Testament unequivocally declares that the Cross of Christ did away with the temple and sacrifices. Much of the book of Hebrews is devoted to this point, telling us that “Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant,” and that “Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.” (Hebrews 7:22, 27)

The Book of Ezekiel, however, prescribed animal sacrifices:

Also one sheep is to be taken from every flock of two hundred from the well-watered pastures of Israel. These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the people, declares the sovereign Lord. (Ezekiel 45:15)

Jesus will not require us to make such offerings; the Cross eliminated them. The Book of Ezekiel further proclaims:

This is what the Sovereign Lord says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites. (Ezekiel 44:9)

Would Jesus exclude foreigners? The Bible says the Gospel is for all peoples. Would he reinstitute the Jewish custom of physical circumcision? The Apostle Paul said:

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (Galatians 5:2-4)

How had my church’s teacher become so blind to the Bible’s clear message? I later found the answer when he proudly displayed his Scofield Reference Bible.

Although Christian Zionists say the Jewish temple must be rebuilt, Jesus prophesied only its destruction:

“Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” (Mark 13:2)

Never did Jesus ordain the Temple’s rebuilding, or state that He would rule from it. Here is what Jesus said about His return:

So if anyone tells you, “There he is, out in the desert,” do not go out; or, “Here he is, in the inner rooms,” do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from east is visible in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Matthew 24:26-27)

Who will rule from a temple in Jerusalem? The Antichrist. Jesus warned the End Times would occur “when you see the standing in the holy temple the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel.” (Matt 24:15). Paul, speaking of the End Times, wrote:

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Thess 2:3-4)

Thus, Christian Zionists teach the opposite of Scripture and prepare their congregations to worship the Antichrist himself. And make no mistake, Israel is preparing to rebuild the Temple, and to pay the costs gullible Christian congregations are being milked for donations, by some estimates up to $100 million annually.43

The author makes a good point regarding the temple described in Ezekiel, which i had previously thought was a good argument in favor of a new temple millennial reign. But if Jesus did away with the sacrifices, and there are sacrifices mentioned in the Ezekiel temple, something doesn't add up.

I'd previously debated the millenium reign (in favor of it) on a different site against a catholic/orthodox, who couldn't defend his theology other than to say "this is what the church believes" and finally "why are you fixated with it?" He said there is no millenium, it's symbolic, called it a "heresy known as chilliasm", and finally said we ARE currently in the millenium. Someone else jumped in and said we're not because during the millenium everyone has to observe the feast of tabernacles in order for it to rain (Zechariah 14:16-17), which we clearly don't now.

So that would point to a millenium reign in the future? But what's the deal with the sacrifices when Jesus fulfilled sacrificial Law? What i've read previously said something about "sacrifices for the nation are different from sacrifices for personal sin" but is that true or biblical? Sometimes it just seems like mental gymnastics and i find it so hard to trust anything zionists say anymore. Finding out about derby's satanism did it - are they literally preaching doctrines of demons?

And now ive completely derailed my own thread...

 

[Flarepath]

Jesus will come back ONCE to transport all true Christians off the earth-
"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" (Mark ch 13)
So we can forget all that baloney about a "new earth"..

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

You do believe in the earthly millenium reign?

No I don't believe in an earthly millennium reign. I believe as the Bible teaches that after the Second Coming of Christ, the saints will go back to heaven and be there with Christ while Satan will be bound on earth during the millennium. This period is between the second and third return of Christ.

The millennium begins with Satan being locked up in a pit, along with all the angels who chose to follow him, “I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit. ... He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit ... till the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:1-3).

The word for “bottomless pit” in the original Greek is “abussos,” or abyss. That same word is used in Genesis 1:2 in the Greek Bible with the creation of the earth. “The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep.” The words “deep,” “bottomless pit,” and “abyss” here refer to the same thing—the earth in its totally dark, disorganized form before God made order of it.

When Jesus returns the second time there will a great earthquake, island will flee, mountain will not be found in their places etc. He and the saints will return to heaven but he earth will be left in a state of total destruction. It will be dark, uninhabitable and without form. Satan will be locked up in this earth in that state. The wicked are all dead in their graves (Revelation 20:5). There is no one on earth for Satan to deceive. The entire planet is empty, left in ruins, without a single human being (Jeremiah 4:24-26).

All the righteous have already been taken up to heaven to live with Christ, "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4).

The saints will “reign with Christ for a thousand years,” spending the millennium in the joys and wonders of heaven. Paul wrote, "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? ... Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” (1 Corinthians 6:2, 3). The saved from all ages will participate in the judgment during the millennium. The cases of all who are lost, including the devil and his angels, will be reviewed. This judgment will clear up any questions the saved might have about those who were lost. In the end, all will see that people are shut out of heaven only if they did not really want to live like Jesus or to be with Him.

More proof that Christ and the saints will be in heaven for the millennium is the holy city, New Jerusalem, will come down from heaven at the end of the millennium to this earth with all the saints (Revelation 21:2-3).

So Jesus is not going to rule on this earth for the millennium because He will be with the saints in heaven and only Satan and his angels will be in the ruined earth for that period of time.

I dont know if the millenium reign is considered part of dispensationalism or not. Seems non zionist people, who tend to not be dispensationalist, believe it doesn't refer to a literal 1000 year earthly reign.

For example, another excerpt from the article i quoted/linked earlier

The War on Christianity, Part II: The Abomination and Blasphemy of Christian Zionism | James Perloff

Christian Zionism is based on a multitude of lies. The bigger the onion, the more the layers we are forced to peel off. I should also note that my paternal ancestors were Russian Jews.

jamesperloff.net

The earthly millennium is part of dispensationalist teaching but I wouldn't be surprised that some non Zionists believe in too.

The author makes a good point regarding the temple described in Ezekiel, which i had previously thought was a good argument in favor of a new temple millennial reign. But if Jesus did away with the sacrifices, and there are sacrifices mentioned in the Ezekiel temple, something doesn't add up.

He is right. Rebuilding the temple will be the Zionists denying Christ's sacrifice for us because they will reinstate the sacrifices that pointed to Jesus' death.

I'd previously debated the millenium reign (in favor of it) on a different site against a catholic/orthodox, who couldn't defend his theology other than to say "this is what the church believes" and finally "why are you fixated with it?" He said there is no millenium, it's symbolic, called it a "heresy known as chilliasm", and finally said we ARE currently in the millenium. Someone else jumped in and said we're not because during the millenium everyone has to observe the feast of tabernacles in order for it to rain (Zechariah 4:16-17), which we clearly don't now.

I've never heard of chilliasm. The Catholic/orthodox was wrong. There is a literal millennium in the Bible but what takes place in it is very different to what takes place in dispensationalist teaching and apparently Catholic teaching too. We are not currently in the millennium because that starts after Jesus' return.

So that would point to a millenium reign in the future? But what's the deal with the sacrifices when Jesus fulfilled sacrificial Law? What i've read previously said something about "sacrifices for the nation are different from sacrifices for personal sin" but is that true or biblical? Sometimes it just seems like mental gymnastics and i find it so hard to trust anything zionists say anymore. Finding out about derby's satanism did it - are they literally preaching doctrines of demons?

The earthly sacrificial system represented Jesus' sacrifice for all mankind. When we come to accept Christ's gift of salvation we do it individually. We'll al be saved individually. There is nothing about sacrifices for the nation in the Bible.

It is mental gymnastics because the devil has confused people through his human agents with dispensationalist teaching that contradicts the Word of God. It has led to a lot of confusion in Christendom. If only Christians studied their Bible with the Holy Spirit leading them instead of just listening to preachers and believing them without question there wouldn't be as much false doctrine as there is. I always say this but we should be like the Bereans in the book of Acts who Paul preached to but they went home and read their Bible to see if what he was teaching them was the truth.

Dispensationalism was started by Catholicism as part of the counter reformation by Jesuit Priests. Jesuits serve the pope not God and we all know the papacy is satanic. I don't know if Darby, Schofield and other dispensationalist leaders of the time were Jesuits (many Jesuits are in disguise) but they certainly were satanist because they knew they were teaching false doctrine and it was very intentional. I haven't read the link but I'm going to read it later.

I believe many Zionists are sincere in their beliefs but unfortunately they believe in a false doctrine. Its not biblical at all. I believe God is going lead many to His truth through the Holy Spirit in these end times.

And now ive completely derailed my own thread...

Its okay. Its all about trying to find out about the truth of God at the end of day.

 

[Flarepath]

When Jesus returns the second time ...the earth will be left in a state of total destruction...The wicked are all dead in their graves (Revelation 20:5).

Where does hell fit into that picture?

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

No I don't believe in an earthly millennium reign. I believe as the Bible teaches that after the Second Coming of Christ, the saints will go back to heaven and be there with Christ while Satan will be bound on earth during the millennium. This period is between the second and third return of Christ.

The millennium begins with Satan being locked up in a pit, along with all the angels who chose to follow him, “I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit. ... He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit ... till the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:1-3).

The word for “bottomless pit” in the original Greek is “abussos,” or abyss. That same word is used in Genesis 1:2 in the Greek Bible with the creation of the earth. “The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep.” The words “deep,” “bottomless pit,” and “abyss” here refer to the same thing—the earth in its totally dark, disorganized form before God made order of it.

When Jesus returns the second time there will a great earthquake, island will flee, mountain will not be found in their places etc. He and the saints will return to heaven but he earth will be left in a state of total destruction. It will be dark, uninhabitable and without form. Satan will be locked up in this earth in that state. The wicked are all dead in their graves (Revelation 20:5). There is no one on earth for Satan to deceive. The entire planet is empty, left in ruins, without a single human being (Jeremiah 4:24-26).

All the righteous have already been taken up to heaven to live with Christ, "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4).

The saints will “reign with Christ for a thousand years,” spending the millennium in the joys and wonders of heaven. Paul wrote, "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? ... Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” (1 Corinthians 6:2, 3). The saved from all ages will participate in the judgment during the millennium. The cases of all who are lost, including the devil and his angels, will be reviewed. This judgment will clear up any questions the saved might have about those who were lost. In the end, all will see that people are shut out of heaven only if they did not really want to live like Jesus or to be with Him.

More proof that Christ and the saints will be in heaven for the millennium is the holy city, New Jerusalem, will come down from heaven at the end of the millennium to this earth with all the saints (Revelation 21:2-3).

So Jesus is not going to rule on this earth for the millennium because He will be with the saints in heaven and only Satan and his angels will be in the ruined earth for that period of time.

Wow. I had not heard that interpretation before. It makes sense in a way that other alternatives to a future earthly millenium reign haven't.

What you said really clears up vs 20:4 because i've not gotten an answer before about who the righteous will be reigning over, since everyone else is dead...

I mean, ive heard completely unbiblical or extrabiblical rationales like some people get a second chance (which directly contradicts scripture), or those who never attained the age of reason get the opportunity to believe/obey (depending if the perspn teaching is for faith alone or works salvation) but the Bible doesn't say any of these things...

But what does it mean that when satan is loosed out of prison he will receive the nations and gathet them to battle?

Revelation 20
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever


Does the rest of the chapter take place during the 1000 years and not after?

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire


Also, i'm guessing Isaiah 11 is not about an earthly millenium then - i've often seen this passage given as a proof for a millenium.

6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious

I've never heard of chilliasm. The Catholic/orthodox was wrong. There is a literal millennium in the Bible but what takes place in it is very different to what takes place in dispensationalist teaching and apparently Catholic teaching too. We are not currently in the millennium because that starts after Jesus' return.

Oops, i meant Zechariah 14, not 4. I'll fix it.

Millennialism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Millennialism (from Latin millennium 'a thousand years', and -ism) or chiliasm (from the Greek equivalent) is a belief which is advanced by some religious denominations. According to this belief, a Golden Age will occur or a Paradise will be established on Earth prior to the Last Judgment and the future eternal state of the "world to come".

If i remember correctly he was saying that Jesus returned in 66AD right before the temple was destroyed.

If only Christians studied their Bible with the Holy Spirit leading them instead of just listening to preachers and believing them without question there wouldn't be as much false doctrine as there is. I always say this but we should be like the Bereans in the book of Acts who Paul preached to but they went home and read their Bible to see if what he was teaching them was the truth.

Definitely.

Dispensationalism was started by Catholicism as part of the counter reformation by Jesuit Priests. Jesuits serve the pope not God and we all know the papacy is satanic. I don't know if Darby, Schofield and other dispensationalist leaders of the time were Jesuits (many Jesuits are in disguise) but they certainly were satanist because they knew they were teaching false doctrine and it was very intentional. I haven't read the link but I'm going to read it later.

I believe many Zionists are sincere in their beliefs but unfortunately they believe in a false doctrine. Its not biblical at all. I believe God is going lead many to His truth through the Holy Spirit in these end times.

Yeah, i've been doing more research about it and you're right, the jesuits were right in the middle of this. I guess as a form of controlled opposition, because i think most dispensationalists are anti catholic and anti papacy. That's kind of what drew me in originally.

I hope more people begin to ask questions and really search the scriptures.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

An example of the kind of zionist propaganda infiltrating Chritianity

Turns out not just "cursing" israel, but even "considering of little account" is a problem.
Zionists really will support anything the country of israel does, no matter how reprehensible.

What is the meaning of bless and curse in Genesis 12:3?

What is the meaning of bless and curse in Genesis 12:3? The meaning of the Hebrew words adds a new understanding to the verse.

www.neverthirsty.org

In the statement, “the one who curses you I will curse,” there are two different Hebrew words for curse. The first Hebrew word for curse is qalal. While it is possible qalal can be translated as “curse,” the fuller meaning includes disparage, abuse, dishonor, despise, consider of little account, disdain, treat as contemptible, or cause harm.[1] This Hebrew word refers to the actions of the one who abuses Abraham.

The second Hebrew word that is translated as “curse” is arar. It only means “curse.” In this verse the word refers to God’s protective action of Abraham. Once again, God reveals His solidarity with Abraham. Anyone who harms Abraham will be cursed by God Himself and suffer the consequences.

But the Abrahamic covenant extends beyond Abraham to his descendants. Since the Abrahamic Covenant was reaffirmed to Isaac (Genesis 28:3-4) and Jacob (Genesis 27:27-29), the provisions also extend to Isaac and Jacob and their descendants because Genesis 27:29 includes the promise of blessing and cursing. The Holy Spirit also came upon the false prophet Balaam who repeated the promise of blessing and cursing (Numbers 24:2-3, 9). It is significant that the Holy Spirit gave this promise of blessing and cursing to Israel. This passage reveals that the provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant flowed from Abraham to the nation of Israel.

Since the beneficiaries of the Abrahamic Covenant are unconditional and eternal, this reveals the promise of blessing and cursing are unconditional and eternal. They still apply to Israel even today. This means that anyone who blesses Israel today will be blessed by God Himself, and anyone who abuses, dishonors, or harms Israel will be cursed with a curse by God Himself. So, everyone should bless Israel. No one should protest, attack, or rejoice that Israel is attacked. No one should dishonor Israel, unless you want to be cursed by God. H. C. Leupold states,

. . . to curse him [Abraham] comes to be almost the equivalent of cursing God.[2]



The whole time i'm thinking THE PEOPLE OF THE MODERN COUNTRY OF ISRAEL ARE NOT EVEN GENETICALLY RELATED TO ABRAHAM. THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ALREADY LIVING THERE ARE MORE RELATED.

Those living today who profess to be “Jews” are not of the ancient Israelites, and they are not the seed of Abraham. In fact, the new DNA research shows that the Palestinians actually have more Israelite blood than do the “Jews!”

The nation of Israel today is populated with seven and half million imposters.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Interesting article
"Seven biblical answers to Christian zionism"

Seven biblical answers to Christian Zionism | BMS World Mission

web.archive.org

1. God blesses those who bless Israel and curses those who curse Israel

This popular assumption is based on Genesis 12: 3. First, note that the promise was made to Abram (that is, Abraham) and no one else. Second, there is nothing in the text to indicate God intended the promise to apply to Abraham’s physical descendants unconditionally, or in perpetuity. Third, in the New Testament we are told explicitly that the promises were fulfilled in Jesus Christ and in those who acknowledge him as their Lord and Saviour. God’s blessings come by grace through faith, not by works or race (Ephesians 2: 8-9).


2. The Jewish people are God’s “chosen people”

Both Hebrew and Christian Scriptures insist membership of God’s people is open to all races on the basis of grace through faith. In Isaiah 56, we see the Lord anticipate and repudiate the rise of an exclusive Israeli nationalism. In the New Testament the term “chosen” is used exclusively of the followers of Jesus, irrespective of race (See also Ephesians 2: 14-16 and Colossians 3: 11-12).



3. The “Promised Land” was given by God to the Jewish people as an everlasting inheritance

Contrary to popular assumption, the Scriptures repeatedly insist that the land belongs to God and that residence is always conditional. For example, God said to his people, “The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you reside in my land as foreigners and strangers.” (Leviticus 25: 23). In Ezekiel, it seems the Lord anticipated the reasoning of those who arrogantly claimed rights to the land because of the covenant originally made with Abraham.

“Son of man, the people living in those ruins in the land of Israel are saying, ‘Abraham was only one man, yet he possessed the land. But we are many; surely the land has been given to us as our possession.’ Therefore say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Since you eat meat with the blood still in it and look to your idols and shed blood, should you then possess the land? You rely on your sword, you do detestable things... Should you then possess the land?’ … I will make the land a desolate waste, and her proud strength will come to an end.’ (Ezekiel 33: 24-26, 28-29)

Residence was open to all God’s people on the basis of faith, not race. Indeed, the writer to Hebrews explains that the land was never their ultimate desire or inheritance anyway but a temporary residence until the coming of Jesus Christ. Our shared eternal inheritance is heavenly, not earthly.



4. Jerusalem is the exclusive and undivided, eternal capital of the Jewish people

The Christian Zionist assertion that God intended Jerusalem to be the exclusive and undivided eternal capital of the Jewish people has no basis whatsoever in Scripture. God insists in Psalm 87 that Jerusalem must be a shared and inclusive city. Nations specifically mentioned include what are today Egypt, Iran and Lebanon. Even the hated Philistines are mentioned as “…born in Zion” on the basis of faith not race. Likewise, the vision of Isaiah 2 associates Jerusalem with the end of war, with peace and reconciliation, where “many nations” will come to the mountain of the Lord.

The focus of the New Testament instead moves away from the earthly Jerusalem toward the new, heavenly Jerusalem as the home of all who trust in Jesus (Hebrews 12: 22-23; Revelation 21: 2; 22-27).


5. The Jewish Temple must be rebuilt before Jesus returns

Prophecy pundits like to quote Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 to suggest a future temple will be built and desecrated by the anti-Christ, before Jesus returns to Jerusalem in order to set up his Kingdom. The only problem is, Christian Zionists require a 2,000 year gap between Daniel 9: 26 and 9: 27 and between Jesus’ words in Matthew 24: 1-2 and 24: 15-16 in order to explain why, after the destruction of the temple in 70AD, another temple is needed. But there is absolutely nothing in either text, or anywhere else in Scripture, to suggest a gap of 2,000 years, or that a future temple is predicted, let alone needed. Just the reverse ‒ the old temple was declared redundant the moment Jesus died on the cross when the curtain was torn in two from top to bottom (Hebrews 1: 3; 10: 1-3, 11). The true and lasting temple is revealed to be the Lord Jesus himself and his followers. The true temple, according to Ephesians 2: 19-21, is under construction. Quoting Old Testament temple imagery, the Apostle Peter writes, “You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 2: 5-7)



6. Believers will soon be ‘raptured’ to heaven before the ‘end-time’ battle of Armageddon


The rapture is a popular idea that Jesus will actually return twice: first of all secretly, to rescue true believers out of the world, then later visibly with his saints to judge the world. There is, again, no basis in Scripture for this novel idea. The Bible is emphatic: the return of Jesus will be personal, sudden, public, visible and glorious.

The idea of a secret rapture is actually based on a misreading of Matthew 24: 40-41 and Luke 17: 34-35 where Jesus warns that one person will be taken and the other left behind. Rapture proponents insist that it is the believers who will be taken and unbelievers left behind. However, in the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13, we see that it could well be unbelievers who are ‘taken’ first and believers who are ‘left behind’ to be with Christ.


However we understand the vivid apocalyptic language of Daniel, Matthew and Revelation, we must hold on to the clear vision of the future of Paradise restored and the nations reconciled in Christ (Revelation 22: 1-2).



7. God has a separate plan for the Jewish people apart from the Church


The question that must be asked is this: “Does God have one people or two?” In the imagery of the vine and the branches (John 15) and the wild and natural branches of the olive tree (Romans 11), we see that God has only ever had one inclusive people, identified on the basis of faith not race. If Gentiles “have been grafted in” (Romans 11: 17), it begs the question “into what or whom have they been grafted?” In the letter to the Philippians, Paul explicitly identifies the Church as the true ‘circumcision’ (Philippians 3: 3). This is entirely consistent with the Old Testament, where citizenship of Israel was open to all ‘those who acknowledge me’ (Psalm 87: 4).


Of course God has not rejected the Jewish people. His covenant purpose for them, as with every other race, has always been ‘that they may be saved’ (Romans 10: 1), to create one people for himself, made of both Jews and Gentiles (Romans 11: 26). As is explained in Ephesians 2, God’s covenant purposes are fulfilled only in and through Jesus Christ.

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

Interesting article
"Seven biblical answers to Christian zionism"

Seven biblical answers to Christian Zionism | BMS World Mission

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I agree with this whole article and I've posted about all these points. This is the truth of God's Word.

5. The Jewish Temple must be rebuilt before Jesus returns

Prophecy pundits like to quote Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 to suggest a future temple will be built and desecrated by the anti-Christ, before Jesus returns to Jerusalem in order to set up his Kingdom. The only problem is, Christian Zionists require a 2,000 year gap between Daniel 9: 26 and 9: 27 and between Jesus’ words in Matthew 24: 1-2 and 24: 15-16 in order to explain why, after the destruction of the temple in 70AD, another temple is needed. But there is absolutely nothing in either text, or anywhere else in Scripture, to suggest a gap of 2,000 years, or that a future temple is predicted, let alone needed. Just the reverse ‒ the old temple was declared redundant the moment Jesus died on the cross when the curtain was torn in two from top to bottom (Hebrews 1: 3; 10: 1-3, 11). The true and lasting temple is revealed to be the Lord Jesus himself and his followers. The true temple, according to Ephesians 2: 19-21, is under construction. Quoting Old Testament temple imagery, the Apostle Peter writes, “You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 2: 5-7)

I just wanted to add this if that is okay. This is about the 70 weeks/490 years that God cut off for the Jews to accept Jesus as Messiah or they would be cut off.

What the dispensationalists did is cut off the 70th week/ 7 literal years and put it more than 2000 years in the future. As I told another Christian Zionist, time is continuos and does doesn't nor cannot be separated by a second let alone by more than 2000 years. Biblically God has never separated time. So the 70 weeks/490 years are continuous and they ended 31/2 years after Jesus' death. Israel then stopped being a chosen nation because they rejected Christ. Jews became like the Gentiles who had to accept Christ individually.