Church Rapture on 25 June 2021

ToxicFemininitySucks

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Really? I thought all the Jews during the seven year tribulation were going to be saved or do you believe in a different version of pre-trib to the one I read about.
I mean no disrespect at all, and this not an attack, i have found our conversation to be very informative.

But, youve said that you only know about one version if the pre-trib rapture doctrine. It is well within your right to not read about the other versions, as you consider the pre trib rapture a false doctrine.

However, if someone is discussing pre trib rapture you have to consider the possibility that what they are discussing is not the same as the darby and Scofield version. For what its worth, i have never read the schofield notes, and if what he taught was automatic jewish salvation i disagree with that teaching.

While all the Jews will not be automatically saved, that doesnt mean that the "time of jacob's trouble" wont be focused on salvation of jews, who were previously blinded. This does not mean ALL the Jews. Neither does it mean that those Jews that are saved will be saved automatically by virtue of being Jews, but that they will at last accept Christ. Thisnis based on the version of pre trib that i know.

As i said, you are free to reject pre trib doctrine, and i have said repeatedly that i am not convinced of it fully. BUT we can't just generalize all forms of the pre trib rapture under the most well known form, which happens to be the only one you have read about. That's a bit of a strawman argument.
 

phipps

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@ToxicFemininitySucks

I mean no disrespect at all, and this not an attack, i have found our conversation to be very informative.

But, youve said that you only know about one version if the pre-trib rapture doctrine. It is well within your right to not read about the other versions, as you consider the pre trib rapture a false doctrine.

However, if someone is discussing pre trib rapture you have to consider the possibility that what they are discussing is not the same as the darby and Scofield version. For what its worth, i have never read the schofield notes, and if what he taught was automatic jewish salvation i disagree with that teaching.
The little I know about pre trib/dispensationalism is enough for me. I don't really need to know all the versions of a false doctrine do I? No Christian should. We should endeavour to know more about the actual truth of God. The Bible tells us:

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).

"Test all things; hold fast what is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

How do we test all things? By sudying the Bible seeing if what is taught to us goes hand in hand with the Word of God. Well I tested pre-trib by comparing what it says to the Bible and it was left wanting. Pre-trib/dispensationalism does not speak to the law and to the testimony and there is no light found in it (Isaiah 8:20).

While all the Jews will not be automatically saved, that doesnt mean that the "time of jacob's trouble" wont be focused on salvation of jews, who were previously blinded. This does not mean ALL the Jews. Neither does it mean that those Jews that are saved will be saved automatically by virtue of being Jews, but that they will at last accept Christ. Thisnis based on the version of pre trib that i know.
Can you refer me to where the Bible says this? As far as I know there is not any part of end time prophecy in the Bible that focuses on just the Jews (not the literal genetic Jews anyway). God always planned that His gospel would go out to all the world because His focus has always been all mankind not just the Jews. When He died on the cross for our sins, He died for all mankind and when He comes back the second time He will be returning for all those that accepted Him and His precepts regardless of ethnicity. That is why in the New Covenant Gentiles joined and can join Israel if they believe and submit to Christ. I'm afraid what you're saying is not biblical.

As i said, you are free to reject pre trib doctrine, and i have said repeatedly that i am not convinced of it fully. BUT we can't just generalize all forms of the pre trib rapture under the most well known form, which happens to be the only one you have read about. That's a bit of a strawman argument.
All forms of pre-trib are dispensationalist. Why must I know all of its different versions to know its wrong? All the forms of pre-trib are false teaching and the Bible warns us about even entertaining a bit of false teaching. Its like playing with fire. I don't want to risk getting burned. What I know is more than enough. I will never look deeper into pre-trib doctrine again. I will focus on God's truth and I hope and pray you do the same.

Ephesians 4:14, "that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,"

Colossians 2:8, "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ."
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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I found this “big picture” article very helpful…

The Woman In Labor & The Promised Seed: The Central Framework Of Bible Prophecy

Background:

the Bible is essentially a macro-prophetic framework and narrative centered on the person of Jesus Christ and dealing with undoing the catastrophe caused by Satan in the Garden (cf. Gen. 3:15–16 and Rev. 19:10). In other words, the Bible is the narrative of the fall and God’s plan, through the Promised Seed, to overcome the fall. Thus, the woman in labor with the injured Promised Seed (Gen. 3:15–16) is the central theme and image in Scripture. It reoccurs very often in Scripture and is central to prophecy.

This is why the Prophets so frequently prophesy through this framework (seeIsa. 7:10–17; 9:3–7; 26:17–21; 66:6–9; Mic. 5:1–5; Jer. 30:5–11; Hos. 13:9–14). For instance, immediately after we read the most famous section of Isaiah (The Suffering Servant—Isa. 53), we see the Gen. 3:15–16 image yet again (Isa. 54:1–10).

Now we read in Scripture that the Promised Seed is both individual andcorporate. Paul ties this together very succinctly in Galatians 3: the Promised Seed is both Christ and the Church (Gal. 3:16, 29). It’s one and many. A mystery in ages past, somewhat hidden in the OT, fully revealed in the NT.

So we have:

1. The Template: a woman in labor with the Promised Seed that will be injured and yet crush/overcome Satan (Gen. 3:15–16).

2. The First Fulfillment (Individual):woman in labor (Mary), Promised Seed (Jesus, born in Bethlehem, as the Head of a mystical body), the adversary ready to devour (Herod, surely influenced by Satan), and an escape from the adversary/dragon (Jesus, the Promised Seed, escapes to Egypt).

3. The Second Fulfillment (Corporate/Collective): woman in labor (Israel/Zion), Promised Seed (Messiah as the Mystical Body, the Church), the adversary ready to devour (Satan and his global system, see Rev. 12–13), and an escape from the dragon (Mystical Body of Christ raptured to Heaven; see Rev. 12:5).

Interesting side note: Paul actually applies the Gen. 3:15 prophecy of Messiah crushing Satan’s head to the Church in Romans 16:20. I find that fascinating.

The future prophecy of Rev. 12 is based on the framework given in Isa. 26 and 66. In these two passages we see:

1. A woman in labor, defined explicitly as Israel/Zion.

2. A birth of individuals distinct from Israel/Zion (Isa. 26) / a birth of a nation distinct from Israel/Zion (Isa. 66).

3. Birthed/resurrected individuals hidden during the coming Tribulation (Isa. 26) / newly birthed nation (not Israel), born before the woman’s labor/travail/tribulation (Isa. 66).


In Rev. 12:5 John intentionally quotes the grammatically-incorrect Septuagint translation of Isa. 66 (“huion arsen”; lit. “a son, a male”); in other words, the male son of Rev. 12 is identical to the male son of Isa. 66. The male son of Isa. 66 is not an individual, but a nation—a nation distinct from Israel, because in Isa. 66the woman is Israel, not the child. The child-nation of Isa. 66, distinct from Israel, would thus be the holy nation mentioned in 1 Pet. 2:9the Church. Note that the Church literally began/was formed, or you might say was conceived, in Israel circa 30–33 AD on Pentecost.

Isa. 66 explicitly states that the woman will give birth before her labor. The woman’s labor pains are likened to the Trouble/Tribulation of Jacob (Jer. 30), the signs of the Tribulation given by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse (Mt. 24:8), and the onset of the Day of the LORD described by Paul in 1 Thess. 5:1–4.

Putting all these pieces together, we can view Rev. 12 as the crux of Revelation and a macro-timeline of end-time events. In fact, numerous scholars have noted that the book of Revelation is what is called a chiasm and Rev. 12 is the dead center of that chiasm (see here).

So first, we’ll define our terms and characters in Revelation 12:

The woman = Israel/Zion



The child = the Church



The dragon = Satan and his system trying to thwart the Church, and preparing to “devour [the Church] the moment he is born.”



The woman’s labor = the Tribulation of Jacob; Daniel’s 70th Week; etc




Note that there isn’t really any guesswork above. Rev. 12 explicitly defines the dragon; Isa. 26, 54, 66, etc, explicitly define the woman; Jer. 30, Mt. 24, 1 Thess. 5 explicitly define the labor; Isa. 65:1, Deut. 32:21, Rom. 10:19–20, 1 Pet. 2:9, Gal. 3:28–29, Eph. 2:14–16, 1 Cor. 12:12–27, etc, explicitly define the corporate man-child/nation; and so forth.

So, our Rev. 12-defined order of events are as follows:

1. Dragon poised to devour the Church.

2. Church miraculously raptured to escape the dragon.

Note:
this completes the Mystical Body of Christ and Jesus+Church begin to reign with the rod of iron (Jesus rules with a rod of iron in Psalm 2, but Jesus extends this promise to the whole Church in Rev. 2:26–27); thus Rev. 12:5points back to Psalm 2, Rev. 2:26–27, and also Rev. 4–5 where we see Jesus reigning in Heaven with the Elders.

3. Dragon cast down with his minions.

Important note:
Medieval Catholic theology teaches Satan was cast down with his angels in the beginning, but Scripture indicates this is yet future; note he still had access to Heaven in Job and also see Zech. 3; furthermore, Paul calls him the Prince of the power of the Air and the god of this age; note also: Rev. 12 indicates when Satan is cast down he has but a short time to do what he’s going to do, that is, namely, give his power and authority to the beast (see Rev. 13). Finally, Rev. 12 mentions a multitude rejoicing in Heaven (the newly raptured Church), but a warning to earth-dwellers: “but woe to the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you…”

4. Woman in labor (i.e., Israel enters the Tribulation).

5. The dragon, unable to get the Church, turns his focus to pursuing Israel on earth (Rev. 12:13).
This would be the first half of the Tribulation/Time of Jacob’s Trouble.

6. The woman escapes mid-trib and is fully protected for the last half, the Great Trib; see Rev. 12:6, 14; also Mt. 24:15–22.

7. Finally, since the dragon lost the Church pre-trib (Rev. 12:5), lost Israel mid-trib (Rev. 12:6, 14), he now turns his attention to the woman’s other children (“the remnant of her seed”) as described in Rev. 12:17. These do not escape and are all overcome by the dragon and his beast (Rev. 13:7). These would be what many call the “Trib Saints” (basically Gentiles who come to faith during the Trib and Great Trib; see Rev. 6:9–11; 7:9–14; 20:4).

Note that when we see the Trib Saints resurrected at the end of the Trib in Rev. 20:4, there is also pictured a distinct group seated on thrones (the Elders—the only group on thrones in Revelation)

 
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ToxicFemininitySucks

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Very interesting article!
newly birthed nation (not Israel), born before the woman’s labor/travail/tribulation (Isa. 66).
...
The male son of Isa. 66 is not an individual, but a nation—a nation distinct from Israel, because in Isa. 66the woman is Israel, not the child. The child-nation of Isa. 66, distinct from Israel, would thus be the holy nation mentioned in 1 Pet. 2:9the Church. Note that the Church literally began/was formed, or you might say was conceived, in Israel circa 30–33 AD on Pentecost.

Isa. 66 explicitly states that the woman will give birth before her labor. The woman’s labor pains are likened to the Trouble/Tribulation of Jacob (Jer. 30), the signs of the Tribulation given by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse (Mt. 24:8), and the onset of the Day of the LORD described by Paul in 1 Thess. 5:1–4.
I've wondered what that verse means. It did not cross my mind it could be referring to the Church.

The part that confused me is that it refers to the woman having a man child, and the church is personified as the bride, not a man child.
Isa66:7
7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child
5. The dragon, unable to get the Church, turns his focus to pursuing Israel on earth (Rev. 12:13). This would be the first half of the Tribulation/Time of Jacob’s Trouble.

6. The woman escapes mid-trib and is fully protected for the last half, the Great Trib; see Rev. 12:6, 14; also Mt. 24:15–22.

7. Finally, since the dragon lost the Church pre-trib (Rev. 12:5), lost Israel mid-trib (Rev. 12:6, 14), he now turns his attention to the woman’s other children (“the remnant of her seed”) as described in Rev. 12:17. These do not escape and are all overcome by the dragon and his beast (Rev. 13:7). These would be what many call the “Trib Saints” (basically Gentiles who come to faith during the Trib and Great Trib; see Rev. 6:9–11; 7:9–14; 20:4).

Note that when we see the Trib Saints resurrected at the end of the Trib in Rev. 20:4, there is also pictured a distinct group seated on thrones (the Elders—the only group on thrones in Revelation)
Also wasn't familiar with a mid-trib jewish rapture. Would that mean the two witnesses occur after the jewish people have been taken? Or during the first half of the tribulation?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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…Also wasn't familiar with a mid-trib jewish rapture. Would that mean the two witnesses occur after the jewish people have been taken? Or during the first half of the tribulation?
I haven’t come across a mid-trib Jewish Rapture either…

The verses that suggest that God provides a place of safety for the remnant of Jews is found in Rev 12:

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Many seem to be of the view that this represents the earthly forces of a future AC seeking to destroy the surviving Jews after they see the “abomination of desolation appear in the holy place” It is suggested that by some divine intervention, they are able to escape and then be sustained for 3 1/2 years. Some suggest Petra in Jordan might be that place but I have no special insight here!
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The part that confused me is that it refers to the woman having a man child, and the church is personified as the bride, not a man child.
Isa66:7
Now it’s getting interesting! Have you noticed how Israel is referred to with various images in the Bible? We have a “fig tree” and also an olive tree, we have solar imagery from Joseph’s dream, even sheep, chickens and wild donkeys are included as metaphors…

The church also has imagery. Certainly the Bride is a major one, but so are little children, wild olive trees and even bundles of wheat!

Jesus is described as the “firstborn of many brethren” and as such the Man Child of Revelation 12 refers to Jesus.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g5207/kjv/tr/0-1/

A different Greek word is used for the child that is caught up to God.


It has been proposed by some that this Child / child word distinction refers to Jesus the “firstborn”, and us, the “many bretheren”.
 

ToxicFemininitySucks

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Many seem to be of the view that this represents the earthly forces of a future AC seeking to destroy the surviving Jews after they see the “abomination of desolation appear in the holy place” It is suggested that by some divine intervention, they are able to escape and then be sustained for 3 1/2 years.
Yes, thats the teaching that I've heard regarding that passage.
Ive also seen teaching connect Rev 12:14 to Matt24:20. Not saying im sure its correct for sure.
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 

TokiEl

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Jesus is described as the “firstborn of many brethren” and as such the Man Child of Revelation 12 refers to Jesus.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g5207/kjv/tr/0-1/

A different Greek word is used for the child that is caught up to God.


It has been proposed by some that this Child / child word distinction refers to Jesus the “firstborn”, and us, the “many bretheren”.
The book of Revelation reveals end time events.

So it's not about Jesus being caught up to God in the end times... but the children of God who at that time are rightly called more precisely sons of God (and so brethren of Jesus).
 

Karlysymon

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That is why i bumped this thread because we needed to have an honest conversation about this. Things are accelerating and we cannot afford to pretend that when things are super hard, that there won't be people falling away because they expected to be raptured out of a situation and it didn't happen.
"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And i saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They hadn't worshipped the beast or it's image and hadn't received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4

"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning it's shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider Him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood."
Hebrews 12:2-4
 
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