Church Rapture on 25 June 2021

Tidal

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..do you use the latin vulgate or have one? The word rapture is latin raeptius the original greek is harpazo (1 Thessalonians 4:17) This is paul talking here. I translate everything from greek using the lexicon & latin vulgate to see what is the proper wording.

I like the dear old fearless King James, and use a modern version like the NIV for cross reference.
But I haven't picked up any of them for years because all the verses I post in VC are already in my head and i don't need to look them up..:)

As regards the Rapture theory, Jesus was quite specific that on judgement day he'll arrive with a fleet of angels to collect his elect, not "beam them up" Rapture-style..:)

"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" (Mark ch 13)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I like the dear old fearless King James, and use a modern version like the NIV for cross reference.
But I haven't picked up any of them for years because all the verses I post in VC are already in my head and i don't need to look them up..:)

As regards the Rapture theory, Jesus was quite specific that on judgement day he'll arrive with a fleet of angels to collect his elect, not "beam them up" Rapture-style..:)

"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" (Mark ch 13)
I don’t think people who believe there will be a Rapture don’t think there will be a second coming. They just see differences between the context, descriptions and timings of the two events.
 

Karlysymon

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It strikes me as odd that pre-trib seems to live in the bubble of the United States. Christians all over the world are - and have been - going through tribulation in the name of Christ, but somehow Christ is only going to care when it mostly happens in the U.S.? Just something to consider.
Good point!

It’s never even crossed my mind.
A few months ago I noticed that the gap between the death of Adam and the Flood was 726 years…


726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

I also thought until a couple of months ago that the Strongs numbers were an arbitrary reference - turned out I was wrong:-


It put me in mind of the familiar but cryptic words of Jesus from John 11…

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

The last days are also counted as being prefigured by the days of Noah. Just pondering…
Musings are welcome :)
 

phipps

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The rapture does happen brother. Just depends when. Could be before trib (not thinking that it is imo) or the middle (more likely) & caught up right as Christ returns not thinking that this is it but maybe so we will be called up into the sky that is written. Doesn't matter to me when just know it will.
Can you show actual scripture that talks about the rapture? How can the prophets, patriarchs, Jesus and the apostles not say anything about such an important event as the rapture?
 
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Nikōn

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The rapture is not written of in the Bible at all. There is no verse in the Bible that even mentions it. Neither do the prophets, Jesus or the apostles ever mention it. They only talk about the one and only second coming of Christ.

Most Christians who believe in the rapture think its the truth that they will dismiss this without actually checking out for themselves whether its true or not from the Word of God.
And that is because, objectively, The Rapture doctrine was created/invented by none other than the 19th century preacher, John Nelson Darby.


The founder of the Plymouth Brethren cult and one of the influencers of modern day Evangelical Christianity.
 

phipps

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And that is because, objectively, The Rapture doctrine was created/invented by none other than the 19th century preacher, John Nelson Darby.


The founder of the Plymouth Brethren cult and one of the influencers of modern day Evangelical Christianity.
Exactly, its man made doctrine and is not taught or found in the Word of God. Satan always has a counterfeit for every one of God’s truth.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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And that is because, objectively, The Rapture doctrine was created/invented by none other than the 19th century preacher, John Nelson Darby.


The founder of the Plymouth Brethren cult and one of the influencers of modern day Evangelical Christianity.
Early Witnesses…
After the time of the apostles, a number of writings indicate belief in the imminence of Christ’s return, which is consistent with pre-tribulationism. Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century) all reference Christ’s imminent return.[2] Even though it appears that the apostolic fathers were largely post-tribulational (because they believed the persecution they were enduring was the tribulation itself), they held to the doctrine of imminency. J. Barton Payne (a post-tribulationist) concluded that “belief in the imminence of the return of Jesus was the uniform hope of the early church.”[3]

But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch’s translation and Elijah’s being “caught up” as previews of the Rapture. “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up.”[4] Second, Irenaeus refers to the Church’s being “caught up” before the tribulation. “And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’ (Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”[5] The italicized “this” in his quotation is clearly a reference to the tribulation, which he then introduces.

Victorinus of Petrovium (died 304) was a bishop in modern Slovenia, martyred during Diocletian’s reign. In his commentary on Revelation (6:14), he writes, “And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.] For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.”[6] Later, while explaining Revelation 15, he writes, “And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”[7] Therefore, Victorinus believed the Church would be raptured before the breaking of the seventh seal (and therefore, before the seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl judgments), making him, at least, what we refer to as “pre-wrath” in his eschatology.

In a sermon entitled “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” Syrian church father Pseudo-Ephraem (fourth to sixth century) wrote, “For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”[8] The gathering Pseudo-Ephraem mentions appears to refer to a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.

 

llleopard

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A few months ago I noticed that the gap between the death of Adam and the Flood was 726 years…


726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

I also thought until a couple of months ago that the Strongs numbers were an arbitrary reference - turned out I was wrong:-


It put me in mind of the familiar but cryptic words of Jesus from John 11…

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

The last days are also counted as being prefigured by the days of Noah. Just pondering…
Sorry I don't get it - are you saying there is a particular reason that various words are assigned particular Strong's numbers? I read the wikipedia but it didn't enlighten me! I would be interested to find out more about this pls Red.
 

Lurking009

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Early Witnesses…
After the time of the apostles, a number of writings indicate belief in the imminence of Christ’s return, which is consistent with pre-tribulationism. Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century) all reference Christ’s imminent return.[2] Even though it appears that the apostolic fathers were largely post-tribulational (because they believed the persecution they were enduring was the tribulation itself), they held to the doctrine of imminency. J. Barton Payne (a post-tribulationist) concluded that “belief in the imminence of the return of Jesus was the uniform hope of the early church.”[3]

But it appears that Irenaeus of Lyon (120-202) was a pre-tribulationist. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and articulated his eschatological views in Against Heresies, Book 5. First, he referred to Enoch’s translation and Elijah’s being “caught up” as previews of the Rapture. “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up.”[4] Second, Irenaeus refers to the Church’s being “caught up” before the tribulation. “And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’ (Mat 24:21). For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”[5] The italicized “this” in his quotation is clearly a reference to the tribulation, which he then introduces.

Victorinus of Petrovium (died 304) was a bishop in modern Slovenia, martyred during Diocletian’s reign. In his commentary on Revelation (6:14), he writes, “And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.] For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.”[6] Later, while explaining Revelation 15, he writes, “And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”[7] Therefore, Victorinus believed the Church would be raptured before the breaking of the seventh seal (and therefore, before the seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl judgments), making him, at least, what we refer to as “pre-wrath” in his eschatology.

In a sermon entitled “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” Syrian church father Pseudo-Ephraem (fourth to sixth century) wrote, “For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”[8] The gathering Pseudo-Ephraem mentions appears to refer to a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.

I see the point you're making, that pre-trib may have been earlier than Darby, but these writings and sermons are extra-Biblical and not scripture. It's like defending a fallacy by pointing to another fallacy. The early church and early church 'fathers' were not infallible, hence all the Biblical warnings against false teachings. I would simply say that time and history doesn't make anything true and correct. Got to stick to the Bible for absolute truth.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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I see the point you're making, that pre-trib may have been earlier than Darby, but these writings and sermons are extra-Biblical and not scripture. It's like defending a fallacy by pointing to another fallacy. The early church and early church 'fathers' were not infallible, hence all the Biblical warnings against false teachings. I would simply say that time and history doesn't make anything true and correct. Got to stick to the Bible for absolute truth.
A fair point worth making.

The reason why I replied as I did is that the “Darby invented it” narrative has been popularised, but historic Christianity shows a diversity of view, including both post-trib and pre-trib traditions from the early church.

Appeal to authority (or doctrinal popularity) is a common error that is often confused in the search for truth.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Sorry I don't get it - are you saying there is a particular reason that various words are assigned particular Strong's numbers? I read the wikipedia but it didn't enlighten me! I would be interested to find out more about this pls Red.
This is the bit that I noticed…

“Each original-language word is given an entry number in the dictionary of those original language words listed in the back of the concordance. These have become known as the "Strong's numbers". The main concordance lists each word that appears in the KJV Bible in alphabetical order with each verse in which it appears listed in order of its appearance in the Bible, with a snippet of the surrounding text (including the word in italics).”​

Hence the order the words appear in the Bible become the basis for the Strong’s numbers. If God (the Master Mathematician and Designer) has had a hand in the ordering of those words, it could be that the numbers themselves sometimes have significance.
 

Maldarker

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Can you show actual scripture that talks about the rapture? How can the prophets, patriarchs, Jesus and the apostles not say anything about such an important event as the rapture?
This word rapture is from latin which is from the greek harpazo.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.)

The rapture is right at the end with CHRIST's return. Pretty defined in this verse. I'm ready for the camps torture & death for my faith are you? This is the hope we look to the return of the KING OF KINGS & LORD OF LORDS.

(I wish it was during the middle but that's speculation & would just say to Born again believers be ready to lose your lives)
 

phipps

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This word rapture is from latin which is from the greek harpazo.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.)

The rapture is right at the end with CHRIST's return. Pretty defined in this verse. I'm ready for the camps torture & death for my faith are you? This is the hope we look to the return of the KING OF KINGS & LORD OF LORDS.

(I wish it was during the middle but that's speculation & would just say to Born again believers be ready to lose your lives)
Where in this Scripture does it say directly that the rapture will be right at the end with Christ's return? Those verses talk about one return not two. The scriptures always only mention Jesus returning once for His people at the end of this world, not twice!

Verse 17 is about the second coming of Christ where the saints, those who've been raised from the dead and those that are alive will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord and go back with Him to heaven, together with all the angels of God (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). When Jesus comes back the second time, He will not come down to earth, His feet won't touch earth. This goes hand in hand with what the rest of the Bible says about the second coming. Here is what a few passages from the Bible say:

Matthew 24:31 says, "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13: 26-27, "
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven."

It will be the angels that will come down to earth to gather the righteous and bring them to Christ. Christ's feet will not touch the earth. The saints will not meet Jesus on the ground, but in the air.

The rapture is not written of in the Bible at all. Therefore it is not going to happen. God would not keep the rapture a secret and it would have been mentioned as many times as the second coming of Christ. But not once is it mentioned. Many people are going to be very disappointed when they will not be raptured away before or during the tribulation. I hope and pray you accept the truth of God's Word.

Hebrews 9:28, "To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."
 
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Maldarker

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Where in this Scripture does it say directly that rapture right at the end with Christ's return? Those verse talk about one return not two. The scriptures always only mention Jesus returning once for His people at the end of this world, not twice!

Verse 17 is about the second coming of Christ where the saints, those who've been raised from the dead and those that are alive will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord and go back with Him to heaven, together with all the angels of God (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). When Jesus comes back the second time, He will not come down to earth, His feet won't touch earth. This goes hand in hand with what the rest of the Bible says about the second coming. Here is what a few passages from the Bible say:

Matthew 24:31 says, "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13: 26-27, "
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven."

It will be the angels that will come down to earth to gather the righteous and bring them to Christ. Christ's feet will not touch the earth. The saints will not meet Jesus on the ground, but in the air.

The rapture is not written of in the Bible at all. Therefore it is not going to happen. God would not keep the rapture a secret and it would have been mentioned as many times as the second coming of Christ. But not once is it mentioned. Many people are going to be very disappointed when they will not be raptured away before or during the tribulation. I hope and pray you accept the truth of God's Word.

Hebrews 9:28, "To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."
NO REALLY!!!!!
I'm saying the word translated is where we are getting the word rapture in the scripture provided above if you want another word then call it harpazo still means the same being caught up to CHRIST when he returns for the second time. First time as suffering servant second as KING OF KINGS. So whats your issue? You don't think CHRIST will place his feet on the mount of olives & it will split as per (Zech. 14:4-5)? Has it already been split did i miss something?
 

phipps

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NO REALLY!!!!!
I'm saying the word translated is where we are getting the word rapture in the scripture provided above if you want another word then call it harpazo still means the same being caught up to CHRIST when he returns for the second time. First time as suffering servant second as KING OF KINGS. So whats your issue? You don't think CHRIST will place his feet on the mount of olives & it will split as per (Zech. 14:4-5)? Has it already been split did i miss something?
I prefer to use the words of the Bible in most cases to avoid confusion. The Word "rapture" is not used in the Bible plus dispensationalist Christians now use it to mean another coming other than the second coming of Christ which is not biblical either.

In the Bible Jesus comes to earth three times. The first time He came as a Baby, the second will be His second coming with all the angels for His saints and the third will be after the 1000 years, where He will return with saints in the new city, New Jerusalem.

At His second coming, Jesus' feet do not touch the earth. The saved are caught up in the air and meet Him there and they go back to heaven with Him as I showed you through these passages from the Bible (Matthew 24:31, Mark 13: 26-27, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). Jesus promised to return for His people the second time and take them back to heaven with him. He does not intend nor does He promise that at His second coming, He would immediately reign over the earth in its sinful condition.

It is at this third coming that His feet will touch mount olives. Zechariah 14 is a prophecy that has two or three different applications. Some prophecies in the Bible have more than one application. Zechariah lived at a time when the Jews came back home after the Babylonian captivity. So he is talking about the future of Jerusalem after the events of Babylonian captivity. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans so that is one application then it’s looking beyond that to the ultimate New Jerusalem that come down to earth with all the saved after the millennium, when Jesus is going to come down as the Messiah and deliver the city from any more war.

Lets look at what other scripture has to say about this because the Bible tells us to compare scripture with scripture.

Revelation 21:2-3, "Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God."

Zechariah 14:1, 4-5, 10, "Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses."


So the New Jerusalem will settle where the mount of Olives now stands. The mountain will be flattened to make a great plain, upon which the city will come to rest. All of the righteous people of all ages and God will return to the earth with the holy city for Jesus’ special third coming. At the second coming Jesus will come for His saints, while the third He will come with His saints.

It is then that Jesus will deal with Satan, the wicked and sin. He will destroy them forever and then He will reign on earth forever. These events don't happen at the second coming.

Zechariah 14:11 says, "The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited."

I pray that you will accept the truth of the Bible and not man made doctrine of dispensationalism. God bless.
 

Maldarker

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I prefer to use the words of the Bible in most cases to avoid confusion. The Word "rapture" is not used in the Bible plus dispensationalist Christians now use it to mean another coming other than the second coming of Christ which is not biblical either.

In the Bible Jesus comes to earth three times. The first time He came as a Baby, the second will be His second coming with all the angels for His saints and the third will be after the 1000 years, where He will return with saints in the new city, New Jerusalem.

At His second coming, Jesus' feet do not touch the earth. The saved are caught up in the air and meet Him there and they go back to heaven with Him as I showed you through these passages from the Bible (Matthew 24:31, Mark 13: 26-27, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). Jesus promised to return for His people the second time and take them back to heaven with him. He does not intend nor does He promise that at His second coming, He would immediately reign over the earth in its sinful condition.

It is at this third coming that His feet will touch mount olives. Zechariah 14 is a prophecy that has two or three different applications. Some prophecies in the Bible have more than one application. Zechariah lived at a time when the Jews came back home after the Babylonian captivity. So he is talking about the future of Jerusalem after the events of Babylonian captivity. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans so that is one application then it’s looking beyond that to the ultimate New Jerusalem that come down to earth with all the saved after the millennium, when Jesus is going to come down as the Messiah and deliver the city from any more war.

Lets look at what other scripture has to say about this because the Bible tells us to compare scripture with scripture.

Revelation 21:2-3, "Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God."

Zechariah 14:1, 4-5, 10, "Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses."


So the New Jerusalem will settle where the mount of Olives now stands. The mountain will be flattened to make a great plain, upon which the city will come to rest. All of the righteous people of all ages and God will return to the earth with the holy city for Jesus’ special third coming. At the second coming Jesus will come for His saints, while the third He will come with His saints.

It is then that Jesus will deal with Satan, the wicked and sin. He will destroy them forever and then He will reign on earth forever. These events don't happen at the second coming.

Zechariah 14:11 says, "The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited."

I pray that you will accept the truth of the Bible and not man made doctrine of dispensationalism. God bless.
IDK about a third coming doesn't say it. I think your not looking at the correct doctrine either yours sounds totally meshing what you want it to be. GOD Bless
 

phipps

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IDK about a third coming doesn't say it. I think your not looking at the correct doctrine either yours sounds totally meshing what you want it to be. GOD Bless
I've just shown you scripture on it so how can it be a wrong doctrine when its written of in the Bible? The rapture is not written of at all but Jesus coming to earth three times is. I understand this may be the first time you're finding this out but its entirely biblical.

Revelation 21:2-3, "Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God."

Jesus returns the third time after 1000 years with the New Jerusalem. The Bible tells us Satan will be also loosed from his chains after the 1000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), then he will go and deceive the nations again (these will be all the wicked who are resurrected after the millennium too), and they will surround and attack the New Jerusalem (Revelation 20:7-9). Then fire rains from heaven and destroys them all. These events happen after the millennium not at the second coming.

Jesus does not come to earth the second time with the holy city, New Jerusalem. He comes to earth with all the angels for His people (Matthew 24:31, 25:31). The third time He comes with His people in the holy city.

There is a reason why I post a lot of scripture so people can read and see its written in the Bible but will also want to study the Bible further to prove whether its true or not.

I hope you look further into this subject instead of dismissing it it for a false doctrine of the rapture that is not even biblical. The Bible tells us to "test the spirits, whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1).
 
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Maldarker

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Its not called the third coming in the Bible, but Jesus comes three times to earth. The first time as a baby, the second time for the saints and third time time with the saints in the New city Jerusalem.

I've just shown you scripture on it so how can it be a wrong doctrine when its written of in the Bible? The rapture is not written of at all but Jesus coming to earth three times is.

Revelation 21:2-3, "Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God."

Jesus returns the third time after 1000 years with the New Jerusalem. The Bible tells us Satan will be also loosed from his chains after the 1000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), then he will go and deceive the nations again (these will be all the wicked who are resurrected after the millennium too), and they will surround and attack the New Jerusalem (Revelation 20:7-9). Then fire rains from heaven and destroys them all. These events happen after the millennium not at the second coming. Jesus does not come to earth the second time with the holy city. He comes to earth with all the angels for His people and I showed you scripture on that.

There is a reason why I post a lot of scripture so people can read and see its written in the Bible but will also want to study the Bible further to prove whether its true or not.

I hope you look further into this subject instead of dismissing it it for a false doctrine of the raprure that is not even biblical.
Ok maybe need to start from a base of do you believe in what? I have studied the bible to i can put scripture down also but you wouldn't believe your stuck on your doctrine same as i guess i am on mine. I came to this realization on my own from reading scripture but this is pointless discussion because it doesn't lead to salvation which is what first and fore most matters. So i will respectfully agree to disagree.
 

phipps

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Ok maybe need to start from a base of do you believe in what? I have studied the bible to i can put scripture down also but you wouldn't believe your stuck on your doctrine same as i guess i am on mine. I came to this realization on my own from reading scripture but this is pointless discussion because it doesn't lead to salvation which is what first and fore most matters. So i will respectfully agree to disagree.
So when the Bible says as I've clearly posted that Jesus comes with the saints in the holy city from heaven what is your thinking on that? "Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God." Remember He came for the saints at the second coming and went back to heaven with them and its from heaven they return in the holy city after 1000 years. Did you know the Bible says this at all? Its all written of, I've not made it up.

Btw I've edited my post above and added more information. Please study the Bible on this subject prayerfully. God bless.
 
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Karlysymon

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Bigger picture, though: We are not saved based on eschatology, so views will differ. The problem with pre-trib is that it does not prepare people to accept tribulation and go through some serious hard times. So while this belief will not condemn people, it could lead them to reject Christ when the rapture fails to happen.

It strikes me as odd that pre-trib seems to live in the bubble of the United States. Christians all over the world are - and have been - going through tribulation in the name of Christ, but somehow Christ is only going to care when it mostly happens in the U.S.? Just something to consider.
This was a great post and it stayed with me, so i will use it to ask an honest question of our fellow forum residents who believe in the rapture.

If the Church "isn't appointed to wrath" and the great tribulation won't be an experience for her, what do you imagine it will look like and will it vary from country to country or will the tribulations be universal? Kinda like every country going into lockdown or some unison action?

These things aren't presently happening in the West or much of the world so it's easy for us to think that it's the kind of stuff that will befall those "left behind". So what would you say to a Chinese Christian who has to sleep outside because their vaxx pass turned red because they failed to take a test or a shot? If this isn't bad enough, i don't know what exactly it is that people anticipate will fit the Saviour's statement of "a time of distress since the beginning of nations". I think we need an honest conversation on those anticipations.
 
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