Did Jesus Abolish the law by fulfilling it?

Kung Fu

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What, quarelling? I hear Sunni and Shi'ite muslims don't get on at all well with each other, and even moderate and extremist muslims don't see eye to eye..;)
Sunni and Shia's disagree on a political level in terms of leadership not in terms of the Quran, their salvation, and religion.

Again, moderate and extremists don't see eye to eye in terms of politics and not in terms of who's God, the Quran ,and etc.
 

Lisa

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Why do you Christians shame your Christ with these debates? It's simple! Love is the fulfilment of the law. John ch8...did Christ break the law by not stoning the woman or did he fulfil the law through love?

1st Cor Ch 13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

That passage is showing us what the nature of Christ is...
Jude‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.


‭‭​
 

Stucky

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To 'Contend' is one thing to debate and quarrel, which these kinda threads inevitably lead to, IS shaming Christ...and that in public too. If anyone hasn't figured that out then they should pray for wisdom and a dash of humility.

And that's my last word here.
 
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Lisa

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To 'Contend' is one thing to debate and quarrel, which these kinda threads inevitably lead to, IS shaming Christ...and that in public too. If anyone hasn't figured that out then they should pray for a wisdom and a dash of humility.

And that's my last word here.
How is it shaming Jesus when we are told to contend earnestly for the faith? God who inspired men to write what they wrote..wrote that through Paul..so, it’s not wrong to debate and quarrel about what is true..its the right thing to do.
 

Lefort3000

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Why does your god deny so many his grace and ignores our free will?
--------------------------------------

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.


Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then the is is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.

What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to show how vile your genocidal god is.

Regards
DL
What are you a Marcionite? Blapshemer.

Also that post features Pauline verses, these can be shown to be untrustworthy due to Paul.
 

Tidal

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To 'Contend' is one thing to debate and quarrel, which these kinda threads inevitably lead to, IS shaming Christ...and that in public too. If anyone hasn't figured that out then they should pray for wisdom and a dash of humility.

But debate and discussion is FUN.. :D
I've been doing it on the boards all over internetland for 18 years; the trick is never to say anything unless we can back it up with good quotes etc.
We can still express our own speculations and opinions of course, as long as we tell people they're just speculations and opinions..:cool:
 

phipps

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You don't see this among other religions. Since my time here I've only seen Christians counter one anothers verses with verses from the very same book the other person is quoting. And the reason for that is becaus of the contradictions. Mark says this, Jesus says, Moses says this, but Paul says this, and etc......
Are you sure? I know different sects of Islam disagree on many things. The Shia and Sunni have different opinions on some parts of the Quran don't they? The only difference is they don't have as many different sects as Christianity does. I think that is because Satan knows Christianity is the true religion and so he is more invested in causing disharmony there than in Islam. However there are true Christians who do have the true message of God and they know there is unity in the Bible. If they don't understand something they ask God to give them understanding instead of dismissing whole parts of the Bible.
 
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A Freeman

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The Bible was NOT written for humans, which are incapable of understanding it, because it's foreign to them. The Bible was written for SPIRITUAL BEINGS, exactly as it says.

John 3:3-7
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot SEE The Kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (human) and then is born (later) from above as his spirit-"Being" (his REAL self which is NOT human), he can NOT "see" much less enter into The Kingdom of God (Who is a Spirit-"Being").
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is human; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (a spirit-"Being") - (a human+Being).
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye MUST be born again.

There is no such thing as a "born again Christian" because if someone is TRULY born again from above (OF GOD), they give up all religious superstitions and criminal behavior (sin), which is exactly what all organized religion is, including Christianity.

1 John 3:4-11
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also The Law: for sin is the transgression of The Law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our (past) sins (Rom. 3:25); and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man (human) deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the Beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil (destroy sin/evil/selfishness/criminal behavior, which is breaking The Law).
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever DOETH NOT righteousness is NOT of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the Beginning (Alpha), that we should love one another (Lev. 19:18, Mark 12:31).

Simply put, we are the children of Whom/whom we obey. If we obey Father (God) we are His Children; if we obey Lucifer/Satan/Iblis/the devil, then we are His Children.

There isn't one single verse in the correctly translated Bible that actually contradicts another IF it's properly understood from a SPIRITUAL perspective. But humans fumble with concepts they simply do not understand, nor will they ever understand, because it's impossible for them to do so. Because humans see things through human eyes, which INVERTS reality, they see everything upside down and backwards.

For example, how many even know why they feel motivated to argue that Paul allegedly did away with The Law, when Christ, Paul's Master/Teacher, clearly stated He did NOT come to destroy The Law and that it would NEVER pass away (Matt. 5:17-18)? BECAUSE KEEPING THE LAW GOD GAVE US IS FOREIGN TO HUMANS. That's why humans are constantly looking for excuses to continue breaking The Law (sinning), and then wonder why the world is FILLED with hatred, crime and violence.

The Bible has a very simple theme running throughout it, from cover to cover, which states that obedience to God and His Law tends to LIFE and disobedience to God and His Law WILL result in DEATH. Read Deut. 30:15-20, Ezek. 18:4, 20, John 14:21-24, Acts 5:29, Rom. 6:23, Rev. 20:12-13 and Rev. 21:8 among HUNDREDS of verses which unequivocally state that we MUST stop sinning/breaking The Law/committing crimes against one another, against nature and against our Creator, or we WILL face The Fire on the Last Day, regardless of whether or not we judge ourselves to be "good people" doing what humans believe to be "good things" (Matt. 7:21-24)

And why shouldn't we? As the spiritual-Beings (Souls) INSIDE of these humans, we are supposed to be learning to control the human, and train it to do God's Will, which is that we all treat EVERYTHING and EVERYONE else with the love and respect it deserves. If someone decides to spend their human existence asleep at the wheel, then they are proving that they have no love for THE TRUTH, but instead prefer and espouse LIES (Isa. 30:10).

Of course the same as true of the "Muslims", most of which are being led by their humans and human imams just like the "Christians " are by their priests, pastors, etc., which is why they've been conned into believing the obvious LIE that the Bible no longer exists, even though God promised them in the Quran that the Bible does exist today and they should NOT be in doubt of it reaching them (Sura 32:23).

So Satan continues to divide us up into thousands upon thousands of different organized religions, denominations, sects, cults, etc., instead of everyone just DOING what God has COMMANDED us to do for our own benefit. IF we did exactly that, i.e. if we all kept and enforced The Law, then we would all see for ourselves that God keeps His Promises, that His Law is NOT grievous in any way (1 John 5:2-3), and we would all be getting along famously, without selfishness, competition, conflict, strife, war and destruction, which ultimately end in Armageddon. How could our current path of lawlessness end any other way?

John 7:16-17
7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
7:17 If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
 

phipps

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In this video Pastor Randy Skeet teaches as does the Bible that obedience is love in action.

Our love of God is expressed in our obedience.

The opposite is also true, disobedience is hatred towards God. Sin is the active expression of hate towards God (this is about wilful sin of course).

He teaches that any doctrine that minimises obedience, is from Satan. Because it undermines love.

And God should be first in our lives. He should be the most important Person in our lives.

I'm always blessed by His sermons and always learn how the Bible harmonises and just how much God loves us.

Nehemiah 1:5, "And said, I beseech thee, O Lord God of heaven, the great and terrible God, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments." God keeps His covenants with those who love Him and observe His commandments.

John 14:15, 21-23, "If ye love me, keep my commandments. ... He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." Manifests means reveal. Jesus will reveal Himself to those keep His commandments. And if we keep His Word, Christ and the Father will make Their home with us. In our minds and hearts, in our entire lives and for eternity.
 
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phipps

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I was reminded in my thread of dispensationalism by @Karlysymon that one of the reasons to know that the ten commandments were not abolished or done away with is that the ark of the covenant was seen by John in the heavenly sanctuary/temple in the book of Revelation:

"Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail" (Revelation 11:19).

In the earthly sanctuary/temple which was modelled on and was a copy of the original sanctuary in heaven (Hebrews 8:1-2, 4-5 ), the ark of the covenant was the most important piece of furniture in it. It was a wooden box, plated with gold which contained only the tablets of the Ten Commandments. Placed on top the box were two angels made of solid gold. Between these two angels was the mercy seat (Exodus 25:17-22), where the presence of God dwelt. This symbolized God’s throne in heaven, which is likewise located between two angels (Psalm 80:1). It was the only piece of furniture in the most holy room.

The ark is often called the “ark of the testimony” because the covenant law—the Ten Commandments—was placed inside it as a testimony to the covenant relationship between God and Israel. The law was the rule of life; its violation was a serious matter that had to be addressed by the Covenant Lord. The sacrificial system dealt in different ways with the sin of the people and their need for atonement. But the law inside the ark was covered with the mercy seat, or “atonement cover” (Exodus 25:17), the place of atonement—suggesting that God’s last word for us is mercy in the form of atonement through blood.

The fact that the ark of the covenant is in the heavenly sanctuary means that the law still and always will matter for all eternity. The holy law is also the standard by which all will be judged. That law will condemn the guilty; for "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4). The same law that condemns the sinner will witness to the righteousness of those who, through faith in Christ, have tried to walk in harmony with its holy precepts, humbly seeking forgiveness for every transgression (Romans 3:21).

There can be no government without law. The very suggestion of a kingdom is always connected with law. There could be no judgment without a law as a standard of judgment. God declares that "as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" (Romans 2:12). All God's commandments are righteousness (Psalm 119:172). The establishment, or foundation, of His throne is righteousness and judgment.
 

phipps

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It is impossible for an unconverted person to love and obey the law of God. Romans 8:7 says, "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Carnal means the natural way we are born. There is a natural tendency in us to oppose the law. We hate being told what to do.

In verse 6 of Romans 8 Paul says, "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." The only way we can be obedient is through Christ. If we choose to follow Him and let the Holy Spirit guide us we will have Christ's power to obey and be like Him.
 
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A Freeman

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Understanding Sacrifice

The Law included substitute animal sacrifice, both to teach us to avoid sinning/breaking The Law through a perfect system of rewards (blessings for good behaviour) and punishments (curses for bad behaviour) AND to foreshadow the sacrifice of "the Lamb of God", giving way to "self-sacrifice".


Substitute Animal Sacrifice

Substitute animal sacrifice provided ample incentive for the Israelites to learn to keep The Law. As wealth and prosperity were directly tied to the quality and quantity of one's livestock, having to give up one's best breeding stock to pay for the sins they had committed during the previous year had dire consequences, both in the short term loss and in the long-term negative impact on the quality and quantity of the herd.


Foreshadowing the sacrificing of "the Lamb of God"

Abraham was asked to sacrifice his miracle son Isaac, to prove his faith to God. This foreshadowed Father (God) offering up His Miracle Son as a sacrifice to pay for our past sins (Rom. 3:25). Atonement is always for the sins/crimes that have already been committed, and not to provide us with blanket immunity to continue sinning/breaking The Law.

The Law of God is absolutely sacred, holy, just and good. It was given to us to protect us from evil and to set and keep us free.

Under The Law, each of us had earned the death penalty for our refusal to keep our Covenant Promise to obey God's Law (Deut. 28:15-68). We had graciously been given 4000 years to repent (2000 since Abraham) and were still sinning/breaking The Law, which left Father (God) the choice of either sacrificing the entire nation or its King/Teacher instead.

So God sent His Well-Beloved Son, in whom He is well-pleased, to incarnate Jesus (the Word made flesh), to serve as our Example and as the sacrifice for our past sins.

Father (God) is certainly not a hypocrite and certainly keeps His Law, and thus could only send a sacrificial lamb without blemish: The Messiah/Christ. And that's exactly what Father did.


Self-Sacrifice

From that point forward, substitute animal sacrifice took the form of "self" sacrifice, where each of us must learn to overcome our ego/"self" by crucifying it DAILY (Matt. 10:38, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:26-27, Gal. 2:20). There is no other way to accept the sacrifice made on our behalf nor is there any other way to do God's Will, which begins with keeping His Perfect Law of Liberty.
 
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