Did Jesus Exist? All Scholars Agree He “Certainly” Existed

Terminator Resistance

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Really? Is this news to you? I highly suggest you educate yourself. Unless you'd like me to highlight everything?

I may be alot of things TR, but a liar is not one of them.

Apocrypha is not in the Bible for a reason, so like I said it's not true.
 

Terminator Resistance

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While we are on the subject TR would you like to discuss the Hebrew word taph used n the bible?

Spoiler alert, it means pre-pubeserant. i think you know where I'm going with this, but we can explore it if you like.
12 years old is not pre-pubescent (she was not 12 either but if she was Joseph must not have been much older than her), and I dont know why you mention a Hebrew word since the NT was written in Greek.
 

Daze

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Apocrypha is not in the Bible for a reason, so like I said it's not true.
I see, alot like the old testament says to kill the unbeliever, even if its your wife.. its simply untrue because its unpleasant. Yes?

Must be nice to have a religion where one can pick and chose.

12 years old is not pre-pubescent (she was not 12 either but if she was Joseph must not have been much older than her), and I dont know why you mention a Hebrew word since the NT was written in Greek/Arameic.
Actually I'm talking about something different here. A verse that basically says to r*pe the captured and when we examine the word its literally speaking about girls before puberty. Would you like to explore?

Or are we just gonna shove them fingers in them ears because its simply not true !!! Keep wishing and it just might disappear, right?

Close them eyes TR, stick them fingers into them ears and wish it all away. Then you can go back to your pork dinner.
 

Daze

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Apocrypha is not in the Bible for a reason, so like I said it's not true.
Lets highlight Apocrypha for a moment.


..-Quoted -...

1. What is the definition of Apocrypha?

If you ask any Christian what the word ‘Apocrypha’ means they would say something along the lines “it means it is not authentic or spurious.” Meaning in other words it is fake; it is not original. This is a recent meaning. Originally ‘Apocrypha’ meant “secret or hidden”, this was the ancient meaning.


James Vanderkan says:
“Apocrypha is a plural word (singular: apocryphan) that originally denoted hidden or secret writings, to be read only by initiates into a given Christian group.”

Zlatko Plese:
“The term apocryphan signifies “that which is hidden” or “concealed”- some intimate secret shared only by the chosen few.”

Catherine M. Murphy:
apocryphan- secret or hidden book, such as the Apocryphan of James (a.k.a. secret Book of James).

Sylvia Francke:
“We owe the term apocryphal, since apocryphan in its original connotation means ‘a secret book’.”

Diana Webb says:
“…the word apocrypha as it is a word that is greatly misunderstood. It comes from Greek and is formed from the combination of apo (away) and krytein (hide or conceal). Thus, it signifies that which is ‘hidden away’ or ‘concealed’. Apocryphan is the singular form and apocrypha the plural. These words are used to describe the nature of a certain body of ancient religious writings. The word apocrypha, like many other words has undergone a major change in meaning throughout the centuries. With regard to these ancient books, the word apocrypha ORIGINALLY MEANT A TEXT TOO SACRED AND SECRET TO BE IN EVERYONES HANDS. It needed to be hidden away and reserved for the spirituality mature. It was a term of dignity and respect. To those who revered the apocryphal books, they were ‘hidden’ because they contained teachings that were too sacred to be revealed except to the initiated.”


What is interesting is Protestant Christians are quick to reject Apocrypha books. But when we ask Christians: “Why do you accept the book of Hebrews?” they have no answer. All scholars agree unanimously that they do not know who wrote the book, yet Christians still accept the book as scripture.

As I have established that Apocrypha originally meant ‘hidden’ or ‘secret’, now we move to the next section.
Mary was 12 years old when betrothed to Joseph

- End quote -


If you'd like to read the rest..

 
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Daze

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Looks like you're rattled...no need to quote me 3 times for 2 messages. But continue with your Christian bashing, I am done with you.
I'm not rattled at all. What i see is typical Christian denial. It simply isn't true because you don't want it to be.

That is the crux of every single one of these convos with you types. Fingers go into them ears and everyone BUT you.. is a liar.

Grow up. If you want to make accusations on my character, then at a minimum, attempt to defend them. Ya know, bearing false witness and all of that.
 

A Freeman

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It should be noted well that everyone who has come to this thread, and falsely claimed that the crucifixion and resurrection didn't take place -- because of their MISINTERPRETATION of one single verse in the Koran/Quran (Sura 4:157) -- is calling God and Christ liars, since both God and His Christ have repeatedly told us that Jesus was crucified (on a Wednesday) and that God DID raise Him 3 days and 3 nights later (on the Sabbath day).

Anyone who repeatedly calls God and His Christ liars IS A LIAR themselves, accusing God and Christ of doing what they themselves are actually doing.

This is why not a single one of the LIARS dares to review the absolute mountain of truthful evidence proving beyond any reasonable doubt their false accusations against God and His Christ.

Please take heed that NONE of these LIARS will survive The Fire, regardless of how brazen they are in their erroneous beliefs.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, SHALL have their part in the lake which burneth with Fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Sura 2:174-175
2:174. Those who conceal God's revelations in The Book (Bible), and purchase for them a miserable profit,- they swallow into themselves naught but Fire; God will not address them on The Day of Resurrection, nor purify them: grievous will be their Penalty.
2:175. They are the ones who buy Error in place of Guidance and Torment in place of Forgiveness. Ah! What boldness (they show) for The Fire!

Evidence of the lies told by these liars posted again, for any interested in the rock-solid, iron-clad evidence of their LIES:

The PROMISE from God to raise/resurrect Jesus

And confirmation of the virgin birth of Jesus and that Jesus is THE Example for all those who are “True in Faith”

Sura 3:42-55
3:42. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of ALL nations.
3:43. O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."
3:44. This is part of the tidings of the things unseen (Luke 2:10-14, John 1:10), which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger!) by inspiration: thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary (John 19:26-27): nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).
3:45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of The Word (John 1:1-5) from Him: he will be called Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those NEAREST to God.
3:46. He shall speak to the people in childhood (Luke 2:40-47) and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
3:47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a plan, He only saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
3:48. And God will teach him The Book (Old Covenant) and Wisdom, The Law (The Torah) and The Gospel (John 5:20-21, John 7:15-19, Sura 7:157-158),
3:49. And (appoint him) an Apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: and I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I enliven the dead, by God's leave and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. SURELY therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
3:50. (I have come to you), to affirm The Law which was before me (Matt. 5:17-20). And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you (Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14); I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord (Matt. 12:39-40). So fear God, and obey me (John 14:15, 21-24).
3:51. It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord (John 20:17) then worship Him. This is The Way that is Straight' (Matt.7:13-14, John 14:6)."
3:52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God." Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: we believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are "True in Faith".
3:53. Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger (John 1:14, 5:24); then write us down among those who bear witness (Luke 24:48, Acts 1:8, 2:32, 3:15, 5:32)."
3:54. And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and God too planned, and the best of planners is God.
3:55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme*; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to The Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.


*Note well: those who falsely claim Jesus wasn't crucified and raised by God from the dead after 3 days and 3 nights, are committing blasphemy by calling God a liar


They Killed The Messiah/Christ NOT
but they did crucify the body of Jesus, son of Mary, that Christ incarnated (The Word MADE flesh -- John 1:14)

Further proof of the crucifixion, and of the resurrection of Jesus by God Himself

King of kings' Bible - Sura 4:154-174
4:154. And for their Covenant We raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) We said: "Enter the gate with humility" (Matt. 7:13-14); and (once again) We commanded them: "Transgress not in the matter of the Sabbath." And we took from them a solemn Covenant.
4:155. (They have incurred divine displeasure): in that they broke their Covenant; that they rejected the Signs of God; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God's Word; we need no more)";- nay, God hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little it is that they believe;-
4:156. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed Christ not, nor crucified Christ, but so it was made to appear to them (as they crucified the human body called Jesus, that Christ the spirit-being used - Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Zechariah 11:10-13; Matthew 27), and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) Knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed Christ not:-
4:158. NAY, GOD RAISED HIM UP UNTO HIMSELF and God is Exalted in Power, and in Wisdom;-
4:159. And, of the People of The Book, they all MUST believe him (Christ) before their death; and on The Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them (and you) (Sura 43:61);-
4:160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- because they hindered many from God's Way;-
4:161. In that they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- We have prepared for those among them who reject Faith a grievous punishment.
4:162. But those among them who are well-grounded in Knowledge, and the Believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: and (especially) those who establish constant prayer and practise regular charity and believe God and in The Last Day: to them shall We soon give a great reward.
4:163. We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: We sent inspiration to Abraham; Ishmael; Isaac; Jacob-Israel and the (twelve) Tribes (of Israel); to Aaron; Job; Solomon son of David; Jonah; Jesus; and to David We gave the Psalms (in the Old Covenant/Testament. Note well Psalm 22).
4:170. O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from God: believe him: it is best for you (John 3:14-17). But if ye reject Faith, to God belong all things in the heavens and on Earth: and God is All-knowing, All-wise.
4:171. O People of The Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God aught but the Truth. Jesus the (human) son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of God; and His Word (John 1:14), which He bestowed on Mary's (human) son; was a spirit-Being (Christ) proceeding from Him (making the human+Being called Jesus+Christ – see Sura 2:87, Sura 2:253, Sura 5:113): so believe God and His Apostles. Say NOT "Trinity": DESIST (1 John 2:22-23): it will be better for you: for "I AM" is one God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a human son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on Earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.
4:172. CHRIST COMMANDETH YE to serve and worship God, so do the angels, those nearest (to God): those who scorn His worship and are arrogant,- He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).
4:173. But to those who believe (John 3:16) and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: but those who are scornful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous Penalty; nor will they find, besides God, any to protect or help them.
4:174. O mankind! Verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: for We have sent unto you a Light (that is) manifest (John 1:14, John 3:19-21).


Note well: Sura 4:157 is probably the most misunderstood verse in the Koran. IF it is read properly, it provides us with CLEAR SIGNS AND CONVINCING PROOF that Christ (the immortal spirit-Being) wasn't crucified; but Jesus WAS crGOD RAISED HIM UP UNTO HIMSELF*ucified and raised from the dead, by God Himself, as it says throughout the Bible and Koran.

Another confirmation of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus:-

Sura 6:122. Can he who was dead (Jesus – Matt. 27:50-54, Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:44-47, John 19:30-42) to whom We gave life (Matt. 28:5-10, Mark 16:6-8, Luke 24, John 20), and a Light (John 3:19-21, John 8:3) with which he walks amongst men (Christ), be like him who is in the depths of darkness (Lucifer), from which he can never come out? Thus to those without Faith their own deeds seem pleasing.

And another confirmation of the crucifixion, death and resurrection, as well as of the virgin birth:-

Sura 19:16-37
19:16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family (in Britain) to a place in the East (Israel).
19:17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
19:18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ("I AM") Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear "I AM"."
19:19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of an HOLY SON (Rev. 15:4, Sura 59:23, Sura 62:1)."
19:20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
19:21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed (in Prophecy)."
19:22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
19:23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: she cried (in her anguish): "Ah! Would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"
19:24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! For thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
19:25. And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
19:26. So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to ("I AM") Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into no talk with any human+being'."
19:27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
19:28. O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
19:29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the crib?"
19:30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of "I AM": He hath given me revelation and made me a Prophet;
19:31. And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Compassion as long as I live;
19:32. (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"
19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
19:35. It is not befitting to (the Majesty of) "I AM" that He should beget a (human) son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
19:36. Verily "I AM" is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is The Way that is straight.
19:37. But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the Unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day!
19:38. How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! But the unjust today are clearly in error!


SUMMARY OF EVIDENCE
Proving that anyone who denies the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is a LIAR bearing false witness against God and His Christ

Sura 19:33-34
19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, THE DAY THAT I DIE, and THE DAY THAT I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (AGAIN)!"
19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (IT IS) A STATEMENT OF TRUTH, about which they (vainly) dispute.

Also, the very next verse following the one they intentionally, or out of ignorance, misinterpret (Sura 4:157) and, in doing so, bear false witness AGAINST GOD and AGAINST God's Prophets.

Sura 4:158. NAY, GOD RAISED HIM UP UNTO HIMSELF and God is Exalted in Power, and in Wisdom;-

Luke 20:37-38
20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
20:38 FOR HE IS NOT A GOD OF THE "DEAD", BUT OF THE LIVING: for all live unto Him.
 
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A Freeman

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Why do so-called Muslims attack the Bible, God and Christ (proving they are NOT real Muslims), by satanically pretending the Bible has been corrupted, when God says in His Koran/Quran that could NEVER happen, and that everyone who reads the Koran/Quran SHOULD NOT BE IN DOUBT OF THE LAW OR THE GOSPEL, which God has guarded and protected against corruption?

Sura 5:51. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, CONFIRMING THE SCRIPTURE THAT CAME BEFORE IT, AND GUARDING IT IN SAFETY (Sura 32:23): so judge between them by what "I AM" hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires (Sura 9:107-111), diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have We prescribed The Law and The Open Way (Matt. 7:13-14). If "I AM" had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His Plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to "I AM"; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters about which ye dispute;

Sura 15:9-10
15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
15:10. We did send Apostles before thee amongst the religious sects (John 17:21; Sura 6:159) of old:

Sura 32:23. We did indeed aforetime give the Book (Torah) to Moses: be then NOT IN DOUBT of its (The Torah) reaching (THEE): and We made it a Guide to the Children of Israel.

The Old Covenant PROPHESIES the virgin birth, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

The New Covenant provides eye-witness accounts of the historical fulfillment of the virgin birth, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, so that no reasonably-minded individual should have ANY doubt.

The Koran/Quran then CONFIRMS what came before it in the Old Covenant and New Covenant, when properly translated into any and every language. It is impossible to contradict and confirm something at the same time, so if/when someone believes the Koran contradicts the Bible, they are in error.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not WITH me is AGAINST me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

These are the irrefutable facts and, unlike the made-up stories and rules of men (talmud, catechism, hadith, legislation, etc.), this truth is immutable.
 

A Freeman

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Further evidence of the existence of Jesus, and of Christ (The Word), Whom incarnated Jesus (The Word made flesh -- John 1:14) may be found in the Koran/Quran:-

Direct references to Jesus in the Koran/Quran (at least 65):-

Sura 2:87. We gave Moses The Book (The Torah) and followed him up with a succession of Apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit (Christ). Is it that whenever there comes to you an Apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

Sura 2:136. Say YE: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes [of Israel], and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them*: and we yield our wills to God's Will (as they all said and did)."

*proving every real Muslim should give EQUAL WEIGHT to The Law (given to Moses) and the Gospel (given to Jesus) as they do to the Koran/Quran.

Sura 2:253. Those Apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: to one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and re-inforced him with the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ). If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God fulfilleth His Plan.

Sura 3:3. It is He (God) Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Koran, confirming what went before it and He sent down The Law (of Moses) and The Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down The Criterion (of Judgment between right and wrong).

Sura 3:45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of The Word (John 1:1-5) from Him: he will be called Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.

Sura 3:46. He (Jesus) shall speak to the people in childhood (Luke 2:40-47) and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

Sura 3:47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son (Jesus) when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a plan, He only saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

Sura 3:48. And God will teach him (Jesus) The Book (Old Covenant) and Wisdom, The Law (The Torah) and The Gospel (John 5:20),

Sura 3:49. And (appoint him -- Jesus) an Apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: and I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I enliven the dead, by God's leave and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

Sura 3:50. (I have come to you), to affirm The Law which was before me (Matt. 5:17-20). And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you (Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14); I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

Sura 3:51. It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord (John 20:17) then worship Him. This is The Way that is Straight'."

Sura 3:52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God." Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: we believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are "True in Faith".

Sura 3:53. Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger (John 1:14, 5:24); then write us down among those who bear witness (Luke 24:48, Acts 1:8, 2:32, 3:15, 5:32)."

Sura 3:55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to The Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Sura 3:59. The similitude of Jesus (the human) before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be": and he was.

Sura 3:84. Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob-Israel, and the (twelve) Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will."

Sura 4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ the son of Mary (Jesus), the Messenger of God";- but they killed Christ not, nor crucified Christ, but so it was made to appear to them (as they crucified the human body called Jesus, that Christ the spirit-being used - Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Zechariah 11:10-13; Matthew 27), and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) Knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed Christ not:-

Sura 4:158. Nay, GOD RAISED HIM (Jesus) UP UNTO HIMSELF and God is Exalted in Power, and in Wisdom;-

Sura 4:163. We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: We sent inspiration to Abraham; Ishmael; Isaac; Jacob-Israel and the (twelve) Tribes (of Israel); to Aaron; Job; Solomon son of David; Jonah; Jesus; and to David We gave the Psalms (in the Old Covenant/Testament. Note well Psalm 22).

Sura 4:171. O People of The Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of God aught but the Truth. Jesus the (human) son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of God; and His Word (John 1:14), which He bestowed on Mary's (human) son (Jesus); was a spirit-Being (Christ) proceeding from Him (making the human+Being called Jesus+Christ): so believe God and His Apostles. Say NOT "Trinity": DESIST: it will be better for you: for "I AM" is one God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a human son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on Earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.

Sura 5:19. In blasphemy indeed are those that say that "I AM" is Jesus the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against "I AM", if His Will were to destroy Jesus the son of Mary, his mother, and all - every one that is on the Earth? For to God belongeth the Dominion of the heavens and the Earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things."

Sura 5:49. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming The Law (The Torah) that had come before him: We sent him The Gospel: therein is Guidance and Light (John 1:9), and confirmation of The Law that had come before him (Matt. 5:17-20): a Guidance and a Warning to those who fear "I AM".

Sura 5:75. They do blaspheme who say: "("I AM") is Jesus the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,- "I AM" will forbid him The Garden, and The Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

Sura 5:78. Jesus the son of Mary was no more than an Apostle; many were the Apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food (i.e. they were human). See how "I AM" doth make His Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

Sura 5:81. Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Jacob-Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongues of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in Excesses.

Sura 5:113. Then will "I AM" say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit (Christ), so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee The Book (The Torah and Prophets) and Wisdom, The Law (The Torah) and The Gospel and behold! Thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, thou breathest into it, and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! Thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs, and the Unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but sorcery.'

Sura 5:114. And behold! I inspired the Disciples to have faith in Me and My Messenger. They said, 'We have faith, and bear thou witness that we bow to "I AM" as those "True in Faith"'."

Sura 5:116. They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou (Jesus) hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."

Sura 5:115. Behold! The disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear "I AM", if ye have faith."

Sura 5:117. Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O "I AM" our Lord! Send us from heaven a Table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a Sign from Thee and provide for our sustenance, for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."

Sura 5:119. And behold! "I AM" will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of "I AM"?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! NEVER could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Sura 6:85. And Zacharias and John, and Jesus and Elijah: all in the ranks of the righteous:

Sura 6:122. Can he who was dead (Jesus -- Matt. 27:50-54, Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:44-47, John 19:30-42) to whom We gave life (Matt. 28:5-10, Mark 16:6-8, Luke 24, John 20), and a Light (John 3:19-21, John 8:3) with which he walks amongst men (Christ), be like him who is in the depths of darkness (Lucifer), from which he can never come out? Thus to those without Faith their own deeds seem pleasing.

Sura 9:30. The Jews call Ezra (the human son of Seraiah -- Ezra 7:1), a son of "I AM", and the Christians call Jesus (the human son of the virgin Mary) the Son of "I AM". That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they only imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. "I AM"'s Curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Sura 9:31. They take their priests and their monks to be their lords in derogation of "I AM", and (they take as their Lord) Jesus the son of Mary; yet they were commanded (by him – Sura 4:172) to worship only One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

Sura 19:19. He (Jesus) said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of an Holy son (Jesus)."

Sura 19:20. She said: "How shall I have a son (Jesus), seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

Sura 19:21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him (Jesus) as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed (in Prophecy)."

Sura 19:22. So she conceived him (Jesus), and she retired with him to a remote place.

Sura 19:27. At length she brought the (babe - Jesus) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

Sura 19:29. But she pointed to the babe (Jesus). They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the crib?"

Sura 19:30. He (Jesus) said: "I am indeed a servant of "I AM": He hath given me revelation and made me a Prophet;

Sura 19:31. And He hath made me (Jesus) blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Compassion as long as I live;

Sura 19:32. (He) hath made me (Jesus) kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

Sura 19:33. So Peace is on me (Jesus) the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"

Sura 19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

Sura 19:35. It is not befitting to (the Majesty of) "I AM" that He should beget a (human) son (Jesus). Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

Sura 21:91. And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her (Mary) and her son (Jesus) a Sign for ALL peoples.

Sura 23:50. And We made the son of Mary (Jesus) and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.

Sura 33:7. And remember We took from the Prophets their Covenant: as (We did) from thee: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn Covenant:

Sura 42:13. The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: namely, that ye should remain steadfast in Religion (bonded obligation to "I AM"), and make NO divisions therein (Sura 6:159): to those who worship other things than "I AM", hard is The (Way) to which thou callest them. "I AM" chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).

Sura 43:58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he (Jesus)?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people.

Sura 43:59. He was no more than a servant ("I came not to do mine own will, but the Will of Him that sent me" - John 6:38): We granted Our favour (Christ) to him (Sura 4:171), and We made him the Example to the Children of Israel (John 14:6).

Sura 43:61. And (Christ the Mahdi/Saviour) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) The Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about The (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is The Straight Way.

Sura 43:63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear "I AM" and obey me.

Sura 43:64. For "I AM", He is my (Jesus') Lord and your Lord (John 20:17): so worship ye Him (Matt. 5:48): this is The Straight Way (Matt. 7:13-14)."

Sura 53:11. The (Prophet's) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that which he (Jesus) saw (John 14:6).

Sura 53:12. Will ye then dispute with him (Jesus) concerning what he saw (John 8:33-36)?

Sura 53:13. For indeed he (Jesus) saw him at a second descent (Mal. 4, Matt. 24:27-34, Sura 43:61),

Sura 53-14-16
Sura 53:14. Near the Lote-tree beyond which none may pass: (Gen. 3:22-24)
Sura 53:15. Near it is The Garden of Life.
Sura 53:16. Behold, the Lote-tree was shrouded (in mystery unspeakable!) (Christ's Crown of Thorns was made from a Lote-tree – Mark 15:17)

Sura 53:17. (His - Jesus') sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong (2 Cor. 5:21, 1 Pet. 2:22)!

Sura 53:18. For truly did he (Jesus) see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest (John 14:28)!

Sura 57:27. Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our Apostles: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him The Gospel and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of "I AM"; but, that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.

Sura 61:6. And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Apostle of "I AM" (sent) to you, CONFIRMING The Law (which came) before me (the Torah - Matt. 5:17-20), and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be the Comforter (John 16:7-15)." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"

Sura 61:14. O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of "I AM". As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the WORK of) "I AM"." Said the disciples, "We are "I AM"'s helpers!" Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed (- the House of Israel – Matt.15:24), and a portion disbelieved (- the House of Jewdah/Judah – Matt. 21:43): but We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed (Revelation 11:5).


There are also many more references in the Koran/Quran to The Messiah/Christ (Son of God), and to His Role as God's Messenger.
 

Maldarker

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No age is mentioned in the Quran for the wedding of Muhammad pbuh to Aisha either. What exactly is your point?
That is the whole point i think that the Satan would love us all the hate each other. I always wondered & found that no mention in just the koran about the Prophet & his bride. The bible doesn't either with mary & joseph. So question would be why is it a thing when we don't know for sure ages of any one at that time. So the hadith isn't in the koran but you hold it more sacred? would be the same with the agnostic gospels really. Do we really hold them more sacred some might idk. just pondering.
 

A Freeman

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Whilst I don’t see a compatibility between the Qur’an and the Bible (other than the former being an echo of the latter) I can see that there may well be an original Islam and a modern formulation of Islam that differ. I am sure that certain unhelpful verses such as those above are quietly avoided in Islamic discourse (or perhaps re-imagined in windy articles stressing original Arabic nuances that are difficult to cross examine!!!)
The Koran/Quran was sent for at least the following two reasons:

1) as a message for all mankind (Sura 2:185), to counter the corrupted teachings of pagan Roman Catholicism, i.e. as the original reformation; and
2) as part of the blessing that God promised Ishmael and his descendants (Gen. 17:20-21).

Also, the true, original Koran/Quran was NOT delivered in Arabic, because the Arabic language did not exist during the lifetime of Muhammad. It was originally in Syro-Aramaic (Syriac), the language/tongue of the Arabs throughout Arabia, until centuries after Muhammad's passing.

The term being translated into English as "Arabic" in the Koran is ʿarabiyyan (or ʿarabiyyun , ʿarabiyyin), which means ARABIAN.

And Arabia did not extend southward anywhere near the desert wasteland that would centuries later become Mecca. It was MUCH further north.

Galatians 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I WENT INTO ARABIA, and returned again UNTO DAMASCUS (Qumran).

This is why the very first major city conquered by Omar (Umar) and first capital of the ARAB empire was established in DAMASCUS, c. 634 A.D.

It was during the conversion of the original Syro-Aramaic into the newly invented language of Arabic that several additions and substitutions were made, e.g. about Ishmael being sacrificed instead of Isaac in Sura 2, and the Passover being changed to "Ramadan", etc. That should explain why the "you don't understand the original Arabic" excuse, used to explain away their own misinterpretations and mistaken beliefs, is so utterly ridiculous.
 
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A Freeman

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That is the whole point i think that the Satan would love us all the hate each other. I always wondered & found that no mention in just the koran about the Prophet & his bride. The bible doesn't either with mary & joseph. So question would be why is it a thing when we don't know for sure ages of any one at that time. So the hadith isn't in the koran but you hold it more sacred? would be the same with the agnostic gospels really. Do we really hold them more sacred some might idk. just pondering.
@Terminator Resistance correctly/truthfully stated that neither the age of Mary nor the age of Joseph is recorded anywhere in the Bible. Almost immediately, Lucifer/Satan/Iblis (Satan is referred to as Iblis in the Koran/Quran) responded by having one of his minions quote some fictitious made-up source, to try to counter the truth just spoken.

As you've correctly/truthfully stated, there is no mention of Aisha, nor of Muhammad marrying Aisha, nor of their ages when this alleged marriage supposedly took place to be found anywhere in the Koran/Quran. It was a made-up story from the totally fabricated and self-contradictory hadith. Anyone who believes the hadith DOES hold it to be more sacred than the Koran/Quran, which is "shirk"/idolatry (attempting to make a partner with God out of something or someone else -- effectively blaspheming the Holy Spirit/severing the connection to God).

The Koran/Quran COMMANDS its readers to read, study and put into practice the Old Covenant and New Covenant teachings. The Koran NEVER tells anyone to read the hadith. But what is even more satanic is that the hadith cons people into believing the Bible has been corrupted, and thus cannot be trusted, even though the Koran/Quran plainly states that can NEVER happen.

Sick individuals, on a very short leash to Lucifer/Satan/Iblis, will do his bidding every chance they get. This is what people NEED to learn to resist to keep from being misled. If everyone was doing that, there would be no more division among any of us, as everyone would be striving to DO God's Will, by following Christ's Example, exactly as it says throughout the Old Covenant, New Covenant, and the Koran.
 

TrollingTroubles

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That is the whole point i think that the Satan would love us all the hate each other.
Yes! I agree.

I always wondered & found that no mention in just the koran about the Prophet & his bride. The bible doesn't either with mary & joseph. So question would be why is it a thing when we don't know for sure ages of any one at that time.
Exactly, the only people in the world at that time who made a thing of birthdays were the Zoroastrians in Persia (modern day Iran)

Generally speaking, the exact age of a person was deemed irrelevant and was only ever recorded in multiples of 5 or 10, if at all. From the peasant class, this wasn’t even a consideration, neither was it among the wealthier classes of merchants. And among the bureaucracy and ruling classes, this was something that was often changed in order to depict someone who was younger as much older in order to establish their so called “wisdom” and “experiences”. For women though it was vice versa, in order to portray them to be young, pure virgins who were shy and submissive, which in turn apparently made them perfect wives for men. I do ask myself if we, as human beings have actually changed all that much? It’s still taboo today to bring up a lady’s age in public and women are well known to take artistic licence regarding their age today, despite us now having official records of their birthdays. Men on the other hand, do not play partisan to these numerical gymnastics as we once did centuries ago. Instead we generalise the decade we reside in, a 38 year old would be more likely to say “I’m a 30 something” or such.

It’s fascinating how today we supposedly have longer lifespans and so certain tropes make their way into our social psyche and manifest as cliches on our tongues. Lines such as “don’t you know, 50 is the new 40?” And “life begins at 40”. The so called “mid-life crisis” is now celebrated and impulse buying a Ferrari at 50 years of age used to be something once frowned upon but today seen as great big F U to the taxman. And to many so called friends and family members who can’t stand to see you happy.

So the hadith isn't in the koran but you hold it more sacred? would be the same with the agnostic gospels really. Do we really hold them more sacred some might idk. just pondering.
The ahadeeth literature requires years of study before the various methodologies can be put to good use to determine truths.

I used to be someone who had an issue with the age of Aisha narrations but upon further research and by taking my concerns to my teachers I realised how futile it was for a great many reasons to believe we could determine her actual age given the historical data (or lack thereof) we have available to us.

What is certainly apparent to me though, is that the badly thought out rhetoric of ToT fused with his lack of historical fortitude combined with his futile hubris in attempting to discern the Quran as someone who knows no Arabic, but goes only off the translations is something which does warrant the question, “is he suffering Dunning-Kruger effect?” Or is he just too naive to understand he only has a pixel, and losing sight of the bigger picture?

ToT’s frustrations in being unable to objectively prove anything he claims he can, are now just turning into puerile and petty ad hominem/character assassination posts and cliquing anyone who doesn’t agree with him into some sort of conspiratorial cult, not realising that those of us from the Muslim camp who disagree with him are actually from the majority of Muslims and he is the one who is standing with his nose to the wind.

Yeah, it certainly is interesting, and entertaining… if a little sad also.
 

TempestOfTempo

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Jan 29, 2018
Messages
7,310
Yes! I agree.



Exactly, the only people in the world at that time who made a thing of birthdays were the Zoroastrians in Persia (modern day Iran)

Generally speaking, the exact age of a person was deemed irrelevant and was only ever recorded in multiples of 5 or 10, if at all. From the peasant class, this wasn’t even a consideration, neither was it among the wealthier classes of merchants. And among the bureaucracy and ruling classes, this was something that was often changed in order to depict someone who was younger as much older in order to establish their so called “wisdom” and “experiences”. For women though it was vice versa, in order to portray them to be young, pure virgins who were shy and submissive, which in turn apparently made them perfect wives for men. I do ask myself if we, as human beings have actually changed all that much? It’s still taboo today to bring up a lady’s age in public and women are well known to take artistic licence regarding their age today, despite us now having official records of their birthdays. Men on the other hand, do not play partisan to these numerical gymnastics as we once did centuries ago. Instead we generalise the decade we reside in, a 38 year old would be more likely to say “I’m a 30 something” or such.

It’s fascinating how today we supposedly have longer lifespans and so certain tropes make their way into our social psyche and manifest as cliches on our tongues. Lines such as “don’t you know, 50 is the new 40?” And “life begins at 40”. The so called “mid-life crisis” is now celebrated and impulse buying a Ferrari at 50 years of age used to be something once frowned upon but today seen as great big F U to the taxman. And to many so called friends and family members who can’t stand to see you happy.



The ahadeeth literature requires years of study before the various methodologies can be put to good use to determine truths.

I used to be someone who had an issue with the age of Aisha narrations but upon further research and by taking my concerns to my teachers I realised how futile it was for a great many reasons to believe we could determine her actual age given the historical data (or lack thereof) we have available to us.

What is certainly apparent to me though, is that the badly thought out rhetoric of ToT fused with his lack of historical fortitude combined with his futile hubris in attempting to discern the Quran as someone who knows no Arabic, but goes only off the translations is something which does warrant the question, “is he suffering Dunning-Kruger effect?” Or is he just too naive to understand he only has a pixel, and losing sight of the bigger picture?

ToT’s frustrations in being unable to objectively prove anything he claims he can, are now just turning into puerile and petty ad hominem/character assassination posts and cliquing anyone who doesn’t agree with him into some sort of conspiratorial cult, not realising that those of us from the Muslim camp who disagree with him are actually from the majority of Muslims and he is the one who is standing with his nose to the wind.

Yeah, it certainly is interesting, and entertaining… if a little sad also.
There is a thread regarding Aisha's age for all to see. You and your ilk already showed up there and pulled your usual routine which (once again) exposed yourselves as Islamic charlatans. When you couldnt hold your ground via faulty arguments and compromised historical/theological "interpretations" you resorted to vulgarity, personal attacks and lies/accusation. Now in this thread which should have been a place for all to discuss (and ultimately prove) that Jesus did exist, you and your ped-agenda crowd come in and attack with random distractions which you insert into the dialog for the purpose of feeding your own lusts for drama and confrontation.

You are not fooling anyone but yourselves and you certainly are not giving readers a good impression of Islam or Muslims. But what will be, will be... you are serving your function by showing the dysfunction/provocation and ultimately, blasphemy which is the hallmark of the vast majority of born-and-bred Muslims and the few lost reverts who roll with you.
 
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