Did Jesus Exist? All Scholars Agree He “Certainly” Existed

TempestOfTempo

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Anyone forget that as per OT it takes just 2 to convict some one of murder.

How many witnesses of the risen CHRIST....500

And before you go well but.....

There is not a list of all 500, but we do get names of a number of the individuals who did witness the resurrection. The lack of these names can be very frustrating to those from Western backgrounds for several reasons:

  1. We come from a culture where evidence and record-keeping is largely based on specific recorded details and tests.
  2. Our society is largely literate and information is propagated through literacy.
  3. Other portions of Scripture are extremely specific in regards to genealogies and census data.
However, the lack of these names does not mean the account of the resurrection was falsified. During the time of Christ, society was not so dependent on information being passed on through written records, and we actually have more written evidence for the existence and history of Jesus (Yeshua Bar Yosef of Natzeret) than we do for some of his contemporaries (even some of the Caesars).

Large portions of the population (if not the majority) were illiterate, so it was far more common for information to be passed orally, through the spoken word (thus why James 1:22 tells believers to not just hear the Word, but to do what it says). It would have been extremely unusual— suspicious even— for the names of every witness to be recorded. The word of multiple spoken eyewitnesses was not just helpful as evidence— it was crucial. The abundance of so many witnesses who saw Jesus resurrected (including his brother, James, who was previously a skeptic) would have been key to verifying if the stories were true. Also, 500 is a very reasonable number— just enough that he could have reasonably appeared to, but not so many that they could have gotten away with a complete fabrication. Many of these men and women were martyred for their belief, and the fact they were willing to die and face torture without recanting is very significant— if it were entirely a lie, there would have been a great number of these who would have cracked under the pressure and admitted the falsehood of their story. Instead, not one of Jesus’ 11 closest followers cracked. Thomas, in particular, moved from being a man devastated by Jesus’ death (famous for his moment of doubt) to taking the news of Jesus’ resurrection all the way to India before he was martyred. Christianity would likely have died out very quickly had these witnesses not truly believed they saw Jesus resurrected.

NOTE THESE PEOPLE WHO CLAIMED HE HAD RISEN WHERE DOING SO WITH A POSSIBLITY OF DEATH BY THE LEADERS AKA ROME &
SANHEDRIN same ones putting HIM (THE CHRIST) to death in the first place
Very interesting post. My understanding is that (basically) once Jesus had left the Earthly scene, the Imperial Roman Empire realized "Hes now a martyr to many, and these new/reform Jews wont go back to accepting our Imperial rule... their movement is gaining strength and we better get a handle on his." So what they did was infuse a bunch of their pagan beliefs and customs into the new Judaism Jesus brought in an attempt to co-opt the movement and presto... the Imperial Roman Empire was "transformed" into the Holy Roman Empire.
 

Maldarker

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I don’t read letters I read scriptures. That’s the problem now. Too many of you deal with a lot of fluff. Always worried about what every Tom, Peter, Mark and Paul this person and that person said. WHAT DID GOD SAY??. “There is no savior”. Let’s be clear on that part.
I guess GODs plan for salvation doesn't fit yours...Guessing you know better then GOD on how to do things. Please enlighten us all on a better plan? You say you read scripture then you would see how dominion was lost by adam so how do you get it back? Seems people forget GOD is also not just HOLY but LAWFUL so their are laws that are upheld etc & why things are done a certain way. So again if you got a better plan maybe let the MOST HIGH know.
 

Maldarker

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Very interesting post. My understanding is that (basically) once Jesus had left the Earthly scene, the Imperial Roman Empire realized "Hes now a martyr to many, and these new/reform Jews wont go back to accepting our Imperial rule... their movement is gaining strength and we better get a handle on his." So what they did was infuse a bunch of their pagan beliefs and customs into the new Judaism Jesus brought in an attempt to co-opt the movement and presto... the Imperial Roman Empire was "transformed" into the Holy Roman Empire.
Yes and thats why you silence the dissenters. Sounds like todays political enviroment does it not?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I don’t read letters I read scriptures. That’s the problem now. Too many of you deal with a lot of fluff. Always worried about what every Tom, Peter, Mark and Paul this person and that person said. WHAT DID GOD SAY??. “There is no savior”. Let’s be clear on that part.
You do realise that neither Paul, James, Stephen or Peter preached from the New Testament?

 

Daze

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I must say, Yahda, even on the previous iteration of these boards, you have some interesting views. :) FTR, the below is a video which is probably the best summary I've come across of Jesus by Lee Strobel:

The Case for Christ Lee Strobel (1hr and 11 mins)

FTR, I don't worship Jesus, as I believe he's the messiah to show us the way to worship the Heaven Father only and to repent for our sins. It's probably very similar to what @Todd has mentioned on here and gets lambasted for.
I remember the first time i met Todd.. then i went to war with him. :)

Tarek asked me to back off. I still have the email of it as pm's used to get email notices and gmail has a bad habit of logging everything.

tarek.jpg

I like things like this, ...nostalgic.
 

Maldarker

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I remember the first time i met Todd.. then i went to war with him. :)

Tarek asked me to back off. I still have the email of it as pm's used to get email notices and gmail has a bad habit of logging everything.

View attachment 76480

I like things like this, ...nostalgic.
So in other words you went on a jihad ic well shows what you are for sure had you pegged from the first.
 

TempestOfTempo

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I remember the first time i met Todd.. then i went to war with him. :)

Tarek asked me to back off. I still have the email of it as pm's used to get email notices and gmail has a bad habit of logging everything.

View attachment 76480

I like things like this, ...nostalgic.
Werent you just crying about your PMs being posted after you attacked a poster here and they utilized them to prove that you were lying (as usual)? The hypocritical leopard aint changing no spots we see...
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I remember the first time i met Todd.. then i went to war with him. :)

Tarek asked me to back off. I still have the email of it as pm's used to get email notices and gmail has a bad habit of logging everything.

View attachment 76480

I like things like this, ...nostalgic.
I find the actual message interesting. “Paul is Antichrist” etc. No wonder there is such a spiritual stalemate in such discussions. The pattern of interaction becomes clearer when you understand the significance of “commanding the right and forbidding the wrong”. When you realise that this is something certain strict Muslims have to do (or risk hellfire) it does at least give some empathy for their position.

Btw - Todd was close to being a Unitarian Universalist. The Christian spin is a doctrine called Universal Reconciliation and the only way a Christian could hold that position would be to excise the writings of Paul from the NT.
 
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TrollingTroubles

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I find the actual message interesting. “Paul is Antichrist” etc. No wonder there is such a spiritual stalemate in such discussions. The pattern of interaction becomes clearer when you understand the significance of “commanding the right and forbidding the wrong”. When you realise that this is something certain strict Muslims have to do (or risk hellfire) it does at least give some empathy for their position.

Btw - Todd was close to being a Unitarian Universalist. The Christian spin is a doctrine called Universal Reconciliation and the only way a Christian could hold that position would be to excise the writings of Paul from the NT.
pfander films is Christian hate preacher Jay Smith’s channel. No credibility there man!
 

A Freeman

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I don’t read letters I read scriptures. That’s the problem now. Too many of you deal with a lot of fluff. Always worried about what every Tom, Peter, Mark and Paul this person and that person said. WHAT DID GOD SAY??. “There is no savior”. Let’s be clear on that part.
What needs to be made clear is that Father (God, Whose Name in Hebrew is YHWH or, in English, the “I AM”), speaks, works and saves THROUGH His Angel/Word/Redeemer/Holy Spirit, Whom God Himself does refer to as a “Saviour”:

Isaiah 63:7-11
63:7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the "I AM", [and] the praises of the "I AM", according to all that the "I AM" hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the House of Israel, which He hath bestowed on them according to His mercies, and according to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses.
63:8 For He said, Surely they [are] My people, children [that] will not lie: so He was their Saviour.
63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, AND THE ANGEL OF HIS PRESENCE SAVED THEM: in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit: therefore He was turned to be their enemy, [and] He fought against them.

Exodus 23:20-23
23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in The Way (John 14:6), and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
23:21 Beware of him, and OBEY HIS VOICE (Rev. 19:6), provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name [is] in him.
23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak (THROUGH him); then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23:23 For Mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Moses and the Exodus from slavery in Egypt to freedom under The Law foreshadowed both the First and Second Coming of The Messiah/Angel/Word/Messenger of God, sent to teach and keep us in The Way, and to bring us home, to the Promised Land.

Isaiah 19:20-21
19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the "I AM" Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the "I AM" because of the oppressors, and He SHALL send them a Saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
19:21 And the "I AM" shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the "I AM" in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the "I AM", and perform [it].

-------

References to The Angel of the “I AM” (YHWH in Hebrew) in the Books of Moses:

Genesis 16:7-12, 21:17, 22:11-12, 22:15-18, 24:7, 24:40, 31:11-12, 48:16
Exodus 3:2, 14:19, 23:20-23, 32:34, 33:2
Numbers 22:22-27, 22:31-35


References to The Word of the “I AM” (YHWH in Hebrew) in the Books of Moses:

Genesis 15:1-5
Exodus 9:20-21
Numbers 3:16, 3:51, 4:45, 15:31, 22:18, 36:5
Deuteronomy 5:5

Exodus 9:20-21 (compare with Exodus 23:20-23 above)
9:20 He that feared the Word of the "I AM" among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:
9:21 And he that respected not the Word of the "I AM" left his servants and his cattle in the field.

There are, of course, scores of other references throughout the rest of the Old Covenant where God speaks THROUGH The Word/Angel of the “I AM” to all of the Prophets. How could anyone possibly miss all of these references to the Coming Messiah/Christ, including hundreds of prophecies?

Again, this is why the name "Jesus" is perfect, as it means "Saviour" or, specifically, "YHWH Saves" (the "I AM" Saves THROUGH His Anointed One, Whom the "I AM" sent).
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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pfander films is Christian hate preacher Jay Smith’s channel. No credibility there man!
So just to be clear, the assertion within shariah law of “commanding the right and forbidding the wrong” and its outworking as described in this discussion is incorrect?



COMMANDING RIGHT AND FORBIDDING WRONG IN ISLAMIC THOUGHT

What kind of duty do we have to try to stop other people doing wrong? The question is intelligible in just about any culture, but few of them seek to answer it in a rigorous fashion. The most striking exception is found in the Islamic tradition, where ‘commanding right and forbidding wrong’ is a central moral tenet already mentioned in the Koran. As a historian of Islam whose research has ranged widely over space and time, Michael Cook is well placed to interpret this complex yet fas- cinating subject. His book, which represents the first sustained attempt to map the history of Islamic reflection on this obligation, covers the origins of Muslim thinking about ‘forbidding wrong’, the relevant doctrinal developments over the centuries in all the major Islamic sects and schools, and its significance in Sunn ̄ı and Sh ̄ıite thought today. In this way, the book contributes to the understanding of contemporary Islamic politics and ideology and raises fundamental questions for the comparative study of ethics.

MICHAEL COOK is Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near Eastern Studies in the Department of Near Eastern Studies, Princeton University. His publications include Population Pressure in Rural Anatolia, 1450–1600 (1972), Early Muslim Dogma (1981) and most recently The Koran: A Very Short Introduction (2000).

 
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Daze

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I find the actual message interesting. “Paul is Antichrist” etc. No wonder there is such a spiritual stalemate in such discussions. The pattern of interaction becomes clearer when you understand the significance of “commanding the right and forbidding the wrong”. When you realise that this is something certain strict Muslims have to do (or risk hellfire) it does at least give some empathy for their position.

Btw - Todd was close to being a Unitarian Universalist. The Christian spin is a doctrine called Universal Reconciliation and the only way a Christian could hold that position would be to excise the writings of Paul from the NT.
Incase you haven't noticed that pm is 6 years old. Also what seems to slip by is another Christian holds different views then you. Do you remember my stadium analogy?

So just to be clear, the assertion within shariah law of “commanding the right and forbidding the wrong” and its outworking as described in this discussion is incorrect?


TT makes a good point. Jay Smith's material is pretty damaging with having nothing more then his name on it.

Since you're fond of videos, here's one with his open hypocrisy.

Are Ahmadis Muslim? - Jay Smith caught being a complete Hypocrite


Because you know, whatever fits the narrative.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Incase you haven't noticed that pm is 6 years old. Also what seems to slip by is another Christian holds different views then you. Do you remember my stadium analogy?


TT makes a good point. Jay Smith's material is pretty damaging with having nothing more then his name on it.

Since you're fond of videos, here's one with his open hypocrisy.

Are Ahmadis Muslim? - Jay Smith caught being a complete Hypocrite

Because you know, whatever fits the narrative.
The same question to you then @Daze - ignoring genetic fallacies, is there a principle within practiced Islam of “commanding the right and forbidding the wrong”?

If so, does it’s practice reflect that outlined in the discussion with Jay, or does Jay misrepresent it? If a misrepresentation how is that principle truly practiced by Muslims?
 

Daze

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The same question to you then @Daze - ignoring genetic fallacies, is there a principle within practiced Islam of “commanding the right and forbidding the wrong”?

If so, does it’s practice reflect that outlined in the discussion with Jay, or does Jay misrepresent it? If a misrepresentation how is that principle truly practiced by Muslims?
Its not a fallacy at all. Jay Smith has no credibility. Do you need more proof? As TT said, he is a hate preacher. One doesn't get that rep from a single video.

As per your question I would have to watch your video, of which i have no interest. But can point out the obvious. Sharia is literally Gods law Red. The 10 commandments are Gods law, they are sharia. If you had the power, the nation you are living in now would have them enforced.

Constantly attacking what God has sent down is where man worship leads.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Its not a fallacy at all. Jay Smith has no credibility. Do you need more proof? As TT said, he is a hate preacher. One doesn't get that rep from a single video.

As per your question I would have to watch your video, of which i have no interest. But can point out the obvious. Sharia is literally Gods law Red. The 10 commandments are Gods law, they are sharia. If you had the power, the nation you are living in now would have them enforced.

Constantly attacking what God has sent down is where man worship leads.
Shariah gives the example of a good Muslim walking by a house and upon hearing music or smelling wine, to enter and rebuke the offenders and if that doesn’t yield compliance, to break the offending instrument or upturn the wine container. Is this a misinterpretation or a representation?
 

Daze

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Shariah gives the example of a good Muslim walking by a house and upon hearing music or smelling wine, to enter and rebuke the offenders and if that doesn’t yield compliance, to break the offending instrument or upturn the wine container. Is this a misinterpretation or a representation?
Nope, i can't enter a home without knocking. But hey, haters gotta hate, don't they Red?

Why do you even make posts like this? Simple, because Islam is thee only thorn in your side. Its kinda amazing, how you think bringing another religion down somehow raises your own.
 

Daze

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Shariah gives the example of a good Muslim walking by a house and upon hearing music or smelling wine, to enter and rebuke the offenders and if that doesn’t yield compliance, to break the offending instrument or upturn the wine container. Is this a misinterpretation or a representation?

O you who have believed, do not enter houses other than your own houses until you ascertain welcome and greet their inhabitants. That is best for you; perhaps you will be reminded. (24:27 Quran)
 
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