Is God Particular?

elsbet

Superstar
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,053
John says he does not sin. That means that he does not sin continuously! If you know Jesus, He knows you, and He will give you the power to live a new kind of life. He gives us His righteousness. If there is not deliverance from sin through Christ, then you can have no confidence in Scripture, and if you cannot have confidence in Scripture, what confidence do you have at all about the future?
So... you prefer not to address the contradiction in the last post.
We do not obey God's
Commandments as a
means of salvation.
** BUT **
... eternal life cannot be
inherited without the keeping
of the commandments.
It can't be both.
---
Alright.
I've been reading about the Seventh Day Adventists' beliefs, in an attempt to make some sense of these posts, and the contradictory nature of the theology-- and I'm at a bit of a loss.

It isn't just a different interpretation of the bible, as I thought.

The core beliefs are fundamentally different concerning the Atonement--> that explains most of the differences. Unfortunately, though... and the part I find most troubling-- it does not explain the unnecessary contradictions. Rather than speaking plainly, the doctrine is rife with ambiguity; even among the apologists.

Statement of Faith
The SDA's statement of Faith indicates belief in the finality of the Atonement. However-- and this is significant-- there are additions to the doctrine (two noted, below), which tell us it is not finished yet-- in fact, it is currently in progress.

Note: The additions are based on the visions and dreams of Ellen G. White, which were approved as divine authority at the General Conference session c.1995.

Additions
The Investigative Judgement, which is believed to be the Second Phase of the Atonement, began 22 Oct 1844. This was originally thought to be the day Jesus would return, according to William Miller, leader of the Millerites (with whom Ellen White was associated, at the time).

When Jesus didn't return on the predicted day, a number of the Millerites determined this date marked the beginning of the Investigative Judgement, instead-- based on a revelation from Ellen White's vision.
--> This vision was rejected by William Miller, himself.

During this Second Phase, Jesus is said to be searching everyone's records to verify whether or not they qualify for heaven. If there is any sin found, for which they haven't repented or asked forgiveness (meaning Christians who have already accepted the free gift of salvation), they must stand trial against Satan's accusations-- which would necessarily include everyone.
(The Investigative Judgement is unique to the SDA. It isn't biblical. See Romans 8:27)

The Attainment of Sinless Perfection: "Jesus’ [second coming] is dependent on attainment of “sinless perfection” by people within the Remnant Church in the “Last Generation."

(I assume that means us.)

I'm including a third point here; not an addition, exactly, but it is relevant.

Satan bears our sin.
Just like the scapegoat did in the Old Testament. But... so does Jesus. Again, very contradictory.
(1 Peter 2:24 He [Jesus]... bore our sins)

Excerpt from an SDA member's article:
"The guilt and responsibility for sin is placed upon the scapegoat who goes off to the wilderness...
While Jesus died for our guilt, He did not die for Satan’s guilt, so it is still placed upon Satan." (Which is it?)
The problem with the Investigative Judgement is fairly simple-- God is omniscient. There is no need for an investigation.

On sinless perfection: There is also no reason for (our sovereign) God to wait on standby for us to reach sinless perfection; that was the purpose of the Cross. Please note: if true, it would render the cross useless and its purpose, defeated. (Romans 4:14)
There is no mention of either of these events in the bible.

As for the scapegoat-- it isn't biblical, either. It also presents another contradiction within the SDA's own literature.
(Isaiah 53:11, 1 Peter 2:24)

NOTE: Colossians 2 covers this well, concerning the Law and the cancellation of our debt-- in full-- the moment we repent.
"Cancelling the bond which he held against us in his Law, God has forever removed the barrier which stood between mankind and himself (2 Corinthians 5:19)."
... you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances [the Mosaic Law] that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days...

Many Christians today think they can know God while disobeying Him...
He wants to come into our lives, but He cannot do it if we are disobeying His instructions.
On the contrary-- He can and He does. Thank God. Remember the road to Damascus? To believe otherwise breeds nothing but hopelessness.
If we could do it on our own, there would be no need for a savior.
But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
No one is claiming license to steal, kill and destroy, or to even be rude. Far from it--> it is wholly inconsistent with the indwelling holy Spirit.

That transformative work within us is utterly His--> "He who began a good work in [us] will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

The SDA's belief:
"The Lord Jesus came to our world,
not to reveal what a God could do,
but what a man could do,
through faith in God’s power​
to help
in every emergency."
- Ellen White​
LINK

I will stick to Christ's truth and if you think I am part of a cult because I take Him at His word through the Bible, so be it. What God thinks of me is more important than what you or anyone thinks anyway.

I know what I am posting here is God's truth and I know it comes from a place of wanting to tell the truth of His Word. I also know that it is God who makes us receptive to His truth, so I will pray that God makes you receptive to His truth according to the Bible.
Likewise.
I don't think you're part of a cult because you "take Him at His word through the Bible"-- but I don't think you "take Him at His word through the Bible," either.

Tbh, I am confounded by your alignment with this group. You said you cut ties with the SDA-- but you're clearly an adherent to Last Generation theology, which seems to be influenced heavily, if not totally, by Ellen White.

No offense intended, either... just an observation. Like this, for example:
There are even promises for those who obey Christ fully.
Because to date, no one has accomplished perfect obedience, except Jesus, Himself.

Abraham did not obey perfectly, nor did David. Paul wrote at length of his own struggle. We can all identify with this, and it serves as encouragement-- we share the same nature and the same God.

We aren't expected to be perfect, or even somehow better, than these people. We know His power is perfected in our weakness--> He gets the glory.

Ellen White's visions consistently tell us otherwise.

TL; DR
The deviations from the bible in the doctrine of the SDA Church are based on Ellen White's written accounts of her dreams and visions. She did not believe the words of the bible were God-breathed (theopneustos), nor did she believe in man's sinful nature (see Romans 5:12). In other words, she believed we have always had the power to live a sinless life, on our own power. That may explain their focus on extreme self-regulation as the ultimate means of salvation.

Broadly speaking-- any doctrine that attempts to change, overshadow or draw attention away from the power of God, in the work of Christ (on our behalf)-- or any interpretation of the bible that incorporates doublespeak or confusion into their theology to further that doctrine, ought to be considered highly suspect.

As such, this more than qualifies.

(The Atonement is all I'm covering-- the other "worlds" and the other "sinless Adams," etc. can be covered another time.)
---

No one can come to Faith unless he is called by God, Himself. Faith is not simple belief in the existence of Jesus ... even the devils believe; and they tremble. Per Hebrews 11, Faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

... what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation.
However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world was not given through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith is useless and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression.
ROMANS 4
-
 






phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
2,660
Wanted: An Easy Religion

The Gospel of Jesus has never been popular. The gospels reveal that Jesus “came to His own, and His own did not receive Him (John 1:11).

Thus Jesus tells us to “enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:13, 14).

Although there has always been a mass of professors of religion, there have been but few who have been willing to be truly converted thereby, willing to be broken on the Rock and to crucify self.

Religion has never lacked popularity. Throughout history, most people had “religion” and have even been proud of it. But “The religion that is fashionable, that is popular in the world, is not the religion of the meek and lowly Jesus.” The Review and Herald, June 14, 1892. “The religion of Christ permits no compromise, no yielding to the influences of the world.” Ibid. One of Satan’s goals in our church is to make religion fashionable; to lower the standards of truth so that our church may be filled with those who are professors of religion, but not truly converted.

“It has been the continual endeavor of the enemy to introduce into the church persons who assent to much that is truth, but who are not converted. Professed Christians who are false to their trust are channels through whom Satan works. He can use unconverted church members to advance his own ideas and retard the work of God. Their influence is always on the side of wrong.” Notebook Leaflets from the Elmshaven Library, vol. 1, 21.

The book of Revelation reveals that Satan has succeeded in diluting this church with professors of religion who are not converted. In prophecy, this church is pictured: “So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot … and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked” (Revelation 3:16, 17). But because of their profession, Laodiceans viewed themselves as being rich and having need of nothing.

No more fearful delusion can take a people captive, and no more accurate description could depict our church today. We are more intent on maintaining a good name than on living a godly life. We want to feel good about ourselves while maintaining our worldly lifestyle.

As Elijah said, “How long halt ye between two opinions? If the Lord be God, follow Him: but if Baal, then follow him” (1 Kings 18:21). Let us therefore choose to have either pleasing, popular religion, or accept the offense of the cross. And for those who want a pleasing and popular religion, not by default but by intent, here are three ways to have a pleasing religion like the world.
 






phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
2,660
Preach Jesus, Without Requiring Perfect Obedience

Everyone has some besetting sin. From birth, Satan has been cultivating certain sins within each one of us.

Many Christians come into Church struggling with certain sins. They have to be counselled by genuine trusting Pastors and fellow Christians in Church that those sins have to be overcome and can be overcome through Jesus.

Its easier for them to come to Church and not be counselled about those specific sins they struggle with. Once the truth of perfect obedience is taught, many Christians are lost because they think the standards are too high for them. Even though the Bible says we can do anything in Christ Jesus. Many Pastors rather have the people filling their Church pews than upset them with the truth of God's Word.

Numerically, Jesus could have had much more success, and we can, too, if we will just be content to preach more of “Jesus” and not concern ourselves with obedience. As long as a person will accept Jesus as his Saviour and accept “most” of the standards of the church, surely the other points of godly living will come along as he sits in church week after week.

The only trouble is that as long as there is even one point not fully surrendered to the Lord, Satan has control of the life. Because conversion “requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him.” Steps to Christ, 43.

"We are not God’s children unless we are such entirely.” Ibid., 44. The more areas of godly living displayed in the life, while one sin is being cherished, the more deceptive is the Christian experience. As long as one point is un-surrendered, all the preaching in the world will not avail.

“Even one wrong trait of character, one sinful desire, persistently cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel. Every sinful indulgence strengthens the soul’s aversion to God.” Ibid., 34.

Sin is like a cancer. Either it is completely eradicated, or it completely eradicates Christ. There are only two roads we can travel: one is the road of total victory, the other is the road of total defeat. All we have to do is take one step down, and the next one becomes easier. “After every advance step in the downward road, Satan has some special temptation to lead them [professed Christians] still further on the wrong track.” Testimonies, vol. 2, 287.

But here is the problem: We do not know when we have been totally defeated. “When sin has deadened the moral perceptions, the wrongdoer does not discern the defects of his character.” Steps to Christ, 40. Sin blinds the perceptions. The Jewish leaders in Jesus’ day came under Satan’s complete control, but thought they were the guardians of the faith.

All Satan needs is for us to reject one standard. “The removal of one safeguard from the conscience, the failure to do the very thing that the Lord has marked out, one step in the path of wrong principle, often leads to an entire change of the life and action.” Mind, Character, and Personality, vol. 1, 320.

And so, if we want to be popular like the other churches, just preach “Jesus.” Call it “Christ our righteousness.” Make the people active, happy Christians but allow them to retain their one cherished sin.
 






phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
2,660
Tell People to Wait for Jesus to Overcome Their Sins for Them

If the lie that perfect obedience is unnecessary doesn’t work and Satan cannot deceive us into thinking we can be saved while still cherishing sin, then he has another scheme that is just as effective. Preach Jesus, preach perfect obedience and sanctification, but tell them that Jesus will do the perfecting for them. Teach them to read the Bible and pray, and Jesus will do the rest.

It is true that we have no power to overcome sin in our own strength. But God has called us, with His power, to put sin out of our lives. Jesus gives the power, but we must do the overcoming.

When Judas came to Jesus, he thought that if he just associated with Him, that all his sinful traits would be washed away. How wrong he was!

“He [Judas] felt in his own person the evidence of Christ’s power. … He loved the Great Teacher, and desired to be with Him. He felt a desire to be changed in character and life, and he hoped to experience this through connecting himself with Jesus. … [Christ] endowed him with power to heal the sick and to cast out devils. But Judas did not come to the point of surrendering himself fully to Christ. He did not give up his worldly ambition or his love of money.” Ibid., 717.

Judas wanted to be changed. He thought that by associating with Jesus he would be changed. He heard the words of Jesus day after day and talked with Him face to face. But because he himself did not give up his sins, his life was not changed as he hoped it would be. How many are going through a Judas experience today because of the Judas philosophy? They have accepted the idea of just spending time with Jesus and letting Him change the life apart from their own endeavors.

“Everything depends on the right action of the will. The power of choice God has given to men; it is theirs to exercise. … Desires for goodness and holiness are right as far as they go; but if you stop here, they will avail nothing. Many will be lost while hoping and desiring to be Christians. They do not come to the point of yielding the will to God. They do not now choose to be Christians.” Steps to Christ, 47, 48.

There is a work for man to do in overcoming sin that God will not do for him. God gave Samson superhuman strength, but he had to exercise every ounce of energy; he had to lift those gates off the city wall. He had no power to do it himself. But neither could he merely kneel beside those gates and wait for them to move. He had to exercise the power that God had given him. Likewise, we must exert effort in the expulsion of sin from the soul.

“There must be an earnest effort to conquer through the grace freely given of God.” The Review and Herald, January 24, 1893.

“Divine help is to be combined with human effort, aspiration, and energy. But we cannot reach the battlements of Heaven without climbing for ourselves. … Not even divine power can lift one soul to Heaven that is unwilling to put forth efforts in his own behalf.” The Signs of the Times, August 14, 1884.

The counsel is clear. We must overcome as Jesus did, first by uniting our weakness to His strength, our human frailties to His divine omnipotence, our nature to His, and then, thus empowered, we must overcome sin by refusing to do evil and choosing to do right.

“If by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live” (Romans 8:13).

But this work requires the crucifixion of self, not pleasing to the natural heart. It will not make for a large, popular church. If we want to have a pleasing doctrine that will gain more adherents, preach victory through Jesus, call it “righteousness by faith,” but teach that Jesus will do the overcoming for us.
 






phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
2,660
Lead People to Worship the System

In all ages, worshiping the system has worked effectively. Get people to transfer their allegiance from the Creator to the created. In ages past, men worshiped the works of creation in the sun, moon, and stars, all in the name of religion.

However, in the New Testament era, Satan has found something new—the church. Throughout the Dark Ages, the idol and opiate of mankind was the church. People looked to the church to interpret the Scriptures, to set guidelines for their daily lives, and to fulfill the vacuum existing in the heart of every man and woman. They worked and sacrificed for the church. God was their Father, but the church became their mother, and their final allegiance was to their mother.

Do we have the same danger? In Laodicea, Jesus is pictured as standing outside the door, while the church within continues to function as though it needs nothing. The church has replaced Jesus.

We need the church, just as we need the sun, moon, and stars. But the church must never take the place of God. There must never be a creed to take the place of the Bible. There must never be a system to take the place of personal obedience. There must never be an official interpretation to take the place of personal conviction.

But it is easy to turn our power of thought over to a committee and it is easy to work for something more tangible than God. Moreover, it seems so much more rewarding to work for man than for God. We can climb the system of human organization, but we cannot climb into prominence in God’s vineyard. He said, “Whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave—just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:27, 28).

Organizational worship and service is easier, more pleasing, and more rewarding to the carnal heart than doing all for the Master. It is particularly deceptive because God has ordained organization. God is not leading discordant elements into the kingdom, but a well-disciplined army. But when we give allegiance to the army instead of to the King, then organization becomes a curse instead of a blessing. Because of this problem, organization in the New Testament was kept very simple and unassuming. There was enough organization to propel the church into all the world, united by the cords of love for God and humbleness of service to mankind. All were servants of the One who had given His life for them. All were students of the Word. All were looked upon as brethren. As Jesus said, “all ye are brethren” (Matthew 23:8). Thus, though this list does not claim to be exhaustive, there are three leading ways, all equally successful, of making the church popular and Laodicean:

- Preach Jesus, but do not require perfect obedience.
- Tell people to wait for Jesus to overcome their sins for them.
- Lead people to worship the system.

How is it with you?
 






Last edited:

phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
2,660
I quote the Bible 99% of the time here so for anyone to accuse me of believing and taking anyone's teachings above the Bible is a complete lie especially if they've read any of my posts. The Bible for me is the infallible Word of God. Its the reason I quote it all the time and I will continue to do so no matter how many people try and put me down for posting biblical truths here.
 






Last edited:
Top