near-death experiences (NDEs)

phipps

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So you think he's wrong. It still doesn't negate his experience or what others have experienced, including some blind people who were able to see and went back to being blind when they regained consciousness. As Lee Strobel said to Melissa, it's best to remain a healthy skeptic when people are interpreting what they saw or experienced. As I've stated earlier, I wholeheartedly agree. No one knows exactly what's happening, but as I stated in the OP, something clearly is.
No, it doesn't negate his experience. But that doesn't mean he went to heaven, it means he had an experience due to his emergency situation. Colton's appendix ruptured that is why he had to have an emergency operation. He had a further two operations to clean his abdomen of the poison from the ruptured appendix. He really was at death's door. I think that its the poison in his blood stream that caused him that experience.

As I posted before many people have that experience when they are almost dying for reasons such as strong pain killers, anaesthesia, fevers, lack of oxygen to the brain etc. People experience coming out of their bodies and seeing bright lights, seeing loved ones dead and alive, hearing noises, going into a dark tunnel, seeing light at the end of the tunnel etc in other instances too, like scuba divers running low on oxygen, people who take hallucinogens such as LSD etc. We may not know what is happening and why their brains make them experience these things but that doesn't mean we should believe them. What they say contradicts the Word of God. So who should we believe, them or God?

I know God communicates with people through dreams and visions but they too have to harmonise with the Bible or they are not true.
 
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No, it doesn't negate his experience. But that doesn't mean he went to heaven, it means he had an experience due to his emergency situation. Colton's appendix ruptured that is why he had to have an emergency operation. He had a further two operations to clean his abdomen of the poison from the ruptured appendix. He really was at death's door. I think that its the poison in his blood stream that caused him that experience.

As I posted before many people have that experience when they are almost dying for reasons such as strong pain killers, anaesthesia, fevers, lack of oxygen to the brain etc. People experience coming out of their bodies and seeing bright lights, seeing loved ones dead and alive, hearing noises, going into a dark tunnel, seeing light at the end of the tunnel etc in other instances too, like scuba divers running low on oxygen, people who take hallucinogens such as LSD etc. We may not know what is happening and why their brains make them experience these things but that doesn't mean we should believe them. What they say contradicts the Word of God. So who should we believe, them or God?
I don't think you're understanding the topic of the thread because you don't seem to be furthering the conversation. As well, you're not reading the posts in them or listening to the videos discussing the topic because you think you have the answer to the millions of cases of NDEs. I find it strange you seemed to be obsessed with Colton's account, yet, there are others discuss the issue, who say they're Christians, and you have no desire to evaluate what they have to say about the topic.

We can agree to disagree because you seemed to want to be right, while I was sincerely interested in the phenomenon.
 

phipps

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I don't think you're understanding the topic of the thread because you don't seem to be furthering the conversation. As well, you're not reading the posts in them or listening to the videos discussing the topic because you think you have the answer to the millions of cases of NDEs. I find it strange you seemed to be obsessed with Colton's account, yet, there are others discuss the issue and you have no desire to evaluate what they have to say about the topic.

We can agree to disagree because you seemed to want to be right, while I was sincerely interested in the phenomenon.
Its you not wanting to to agree with the truth about NDE's.

I am not obsessed with Colton, its the main example you used in your OP is it not? So i decided to find out what he said about his NDE and if it matches with word of God. I had heard about him but that was years ago.

I did mention Alex Malarkey but not in the way you would agree with right?.

I also mentioned that many people do get NDE's and they contradict each other too. Many of those people are from other religions that don't even believe in Christ. They see Buddha or Krishna or other gods. Remember?

My point is NDE's are merely hallucinations that people get when they are almost dying or when they are drugged up or their brains are starved of oxygen or have poisoned blood is in their system etc. They should not be given much thought and we should not believe them because there is some truth in them or what we deem as truth. Its either the whole truth or its false. Its God's truth or nothing at all.
 
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DavidSon

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I’ve read that NDEs are not the same as hallucinations or out-of-body experiences (OBEs). Some people seem to want to will their way for it to happen and take mind-altering substances in the attempt to experience the same thing. Researchers have claimed they’re not for numerous reasons.
This thread is an example of how different our outlook, experiences, and opinions of life can be. Some seem to think their's are the center of the universe but I digress! :D Reading about proposed explanations there are researchers investigating NDEs within a neurobiological model who've identified a strong similarity between the NDE and specific drug ingestion. This paper was cited, which I'm posting the abstract for anyone who might be surfing by:

Neurochemical models of near-death experiences: A large-scale study based on the semantic similarity of written reports

The real or perceived proximity to death often results in a non-ordinary state of consciousness characterized by phenomenological features such as the perception of leaving the body boundaries, feelings of peace, bliss and timelessness, life review, the sensation of traveling through a tunnel and an irreversible threshold. Near-death experiences (NDEs) are comparable among individuals of different cultures, suggesting an underlying neurobiological mechanism. Anecdotal accounts of the similarity between NDEs and certain drug-induced altered states of consciousness prompted us to perform a large-scale comparative analysis of these experiences. After assessing the semantic similarity between ≈15,000 reports linked to the use of 165 psychoactive substances and 625 NDE narratives, we determined that the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonist ketamine consistently resulted in reports most similar to those associated with NDEs. Ketamine was followed by Salvia divinorum (a plant containing a potent and selective κ receptor agonist) and a series of serotonergic psychedelics, including the endogenous serotonin 2A receptor agonist N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT). This similarity was driven by semantic concepts related to consciousness of the self and the environment, but also by those associated with the therapeutic, ceremonial and religious aspects of drug use. Our analysis sheds light on the longstanding link between certain drugs and the experience of “dying“, suggests that ketamine could be used as a safe and reversible experimental model for NDE phenomenology, and supports the speculation that endogenous NMDA antagonists with neuroprotective properties may be released in the proximity of death.

So the hypothesis is our brain produces NMDA antagonists at the time of death. I'd rather the scientists weren't so desperate to identify every atom in creation but in my view no doubt there's a relationship between the reports.

Just like a NDE the drug experience can be deeply personal and transformative. As words could never describe the gravity of these events, it's something you either know or don't know. From the outside one could theorize and say it's "merely hallucinations" but it doesn't change the impact on the individual who had that journey.
 

phipps

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Alright I decided to take a look at this NDE that another poster posted because I've been accused of being obsessed with Colton Burpo. Lets examine if this NDE matches with what the Word of God say about death, heaven etc.


I also read this article about her NDE. There is more information in the article than in the video.

Below the video is written, "This case comes the closest to hard evidence that consciousness survives physical death. During her brain operation, blood was drained from the brain and the heart stopped. She was incapable of hallucinating, yet she was out of the body and her observations come close to proving it. Debunkers have worked extra hard to try to disprove this case. But cardiologist Michael Sabom who studied this case and others says that Pam Reynolds was really out of the body and having a spiritual experience. Consciousness can survive physical death."

Already a few things stand out about this person. She had a brain operation, she was anaesthetised, she had blood on her brain that needed to be drained and her heart stopped. These are the right conditions for someone to have an NDE or hallucinate. Her body especially her brain was going through a lot, was starved of oxygen, she was anaesthetised and had other physiological problems that one experiences when they have a brain aneurysm.

Yet they say she was incapable of hallucinating. But she wasn't dead. If she was dead she would not have a story to tell since the Bible tells us:

"For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6).

"Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help. His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish" (Psalm 146:3-4).

A dead person cannot think because their thoughts have perished, they have no memory (which those with NDE's have) nor can they speak or communicate with anyone. A dead person cannot have any kind of consciousness according to God's Word. Clinically Pam Reynolds may have died but not according to the Bible. She was almost dead but not dead that is why she was able to hallucinate.

Also Reynold's NDE is not that different to other NDE's. She too saw a tunnel and bright light. She also chatted with her dead relatives (grandmother and uncle), she had noises plus she heard music playing, she rose up and floated above her body while the medical team were operating on her and some stood around her. These are familiar themes with NDE's. However she did not say she went to heaven, or saw a bright figure or that she spoke with God as far as I can tell. Very few NDE's (if any at all) really seem to agree. All of them seem to have differences. That alone should make us question the truth of such experiences.

Pam Reynolds, Colton Burpo and many others who've had NDE's may have compelling stories that may make some Christians fascinated and attached to them, and no matter how plainly the Bible contradicts what they have read, it seems easier for them to believe the experiences that others have claimed to have, rather than what the Bible says. That in itself is a very dangerous mindset to get into. We are to test everything by the Bible, not test the Bible by what we have heard.
 
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This thread is an example of how different our outlook, experiences, and opinions of life can be. Some seem to think their's are the center of the universe but I digress! :D Reading about proposed explanations there are researchers investigating NDEs within a neurobiological model who've identified a strong similarity between the NDE and specific drug ingestion. This paper was cited, which I'm posting the abstract for anyone who might be surfing by:

Neurochemical models of near-death experiences: A large-scale study based on the semantic similarity of written reports

The real or perceived proximity to death often results in a non-ordinary state of consciousness characterized by phenomenological features such as the perception of leaving the body boundaries, feelings of peace, bliss and timelessness, life review, the sensation of traveling through a tunnel and an irreversible threshold. Near-death experiences (NDEs) are comparable among individuals of different cultures, suggesting an underlying neurobiological mechanism. Anecdotal accounts of the similarity between NDEs and certain drug-induced altered states of consciousness prompted us to perform a large-scale comparative analysis of these experiences. After assessing the semantic similarity between ≈15,000 reports linked to the use of 165 psychoactive substances and 625 NDE narratives, we determined that the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonist ketamine consistently resulted in reports most similar to those associated with NDEs. Ketamine was followed by Salvia divinorum (a plant containing a potent and selective κ receptor agonist) and a series of serotonergic psychedelics, including the endogenous serotonin 2A receptor agonist N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT). This similarity was driven by semantic concepts related to consciousness of the self and the environment, but also by those associated with the therapeutic, ceremonial and religious aspects of drug use. Our analysis sheds light on the longstanding link between certain drugs and the experience of “dying“, suggests that ketamine could be used as a safe and reversible experimental model for NDE phenomenology, and supports the speculation that endogenous NMDA antagonists with neuroprotective properties may be released in the proximity of death.

So the hypothesis is our brain produces NMDA antagonists at the time of death. I'd rather the scientists weren't so desperate to identify every atom in creation but in my view no doubt there's a relationship between the reports.

Just like a NDE the drug experience can be deeply personal and transformative. As words could never describe the gravity of these events, it's something you either know or don't know. From the outside one could theorize and say it's "merely hallucinations" but it doesn't change the impact on the individual who had that journey.
True, but I think drug experiences are considered OBEs. The brain and body might experience the same thing, however, with OBEs are at will, one is requiring something external to "connect" with a "higher self" (no pun intended) while NDEs are trauma-induced. Granted,, I don't think all NDEs are the same either but OBEs seem to be on the fringe of new age and an open invitation to activity that might be malevolent.


This is interesting and I'm in agreement with him that not all NDEs are real, as I think some seem to be paranormal and others, while others are supernatural. I haven't read anyone committing suicide due to an NDE and don't know of anyone who think they're "god-like", but again, I haven't read every experience since there are millions. Astrid did say when she recovered from drowning after seeing the white balls of light, she had all this knowledge, became pretty smart in school and no longer found it challenging.


Alright I decided to take a look at this NDE that another poster posted because I've been accused of being obsessed with Colton Burpo. Lets examine if this NDE matches with what the Word of God say about death, heaven etc.


I also read this article about her NDE. There is more information in the article than in the video.

Below the video is written, "This case comes the closest to hard evidence that consciousness survives physical death. During her brain operation, blood was drained from the brain and the heart stopped. She was incapable of hallucinating, yet she was out of the body and her observations come close to proving it. Debunkers have worked extra hard to try to disprove this case. But cardiologist Michael Sabom who studied this case and others says that Pam Reynolds was really out of the body and having a spiritual experience. Consciousness can survive physical death."

Already a few things stand out about this person. She had a brain operation, she was anaesthetised, she had blood on her brain that needed to be drained and her heart stopped. These are the right conditions for someone to have an NDE or hallucinate. Her body especially her brain was going through a lot was definitely starved of oxygen, she was anaesthetised and had other physiological problems that one experiences when they have a brain aneurysm.

Yet they say she was incapable of hallucinating. But she wasn't dead. If she was dead she would not have a story to tell since the Bible tells us:

"For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6).

"Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help. His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish" (Psalm 146:3-4).

A dead person cannot think because their thoughts have perished, they have no memory (which those with NDE's have) nor can they speak or communicate with anyone. A dead person cannot have any kind of consciousness according to God's Word. Clinically Pam Reynolds may have died but not according to the Bible. She was almost dead but not dead that is why she was able to hallucinate.

Also Reynold's NDE is not that different to other NDE's. She too saw a tunnel and bright light. She also chatted with her dead relatives (grandmother and uncle), she had noises plus she heard music playing, she rose up and floated above her body while the medical team were operating on her and some stood around her. These are familiar themes with NDE's. However she did not say she went to heaven, or a bright figure appeared of her or that she spoke with God as far as I can tell. Very few (if any at all) really seem to agree. All of them seem to have differences. That alone should make us question the truth of such experiences.

Pam Reynolds, Colton Burpo and many others who've had NDE's may have compelling stories that may make some Christians fascinated and attached to them, and no matter how plainly the Bible contradicts what they have read, it seems easier for them to believe the experiences that others have claimed to have, rather than what the Bible says. That in itself is a very dangerous mindset to get into. We are to test everything by the Bible, not test the Bible by what we have heard.
Yes, Red posted the video earlier in the thread. As stated by the doctor, Robert Spetzler said, "It is the height of egotism to say that something didn't happen just because we can't explain it". Below is a video with Lee talking to Sean McDowell that gives a rational explanation by a scientist Sharon Dericks(?) who was a former atheist and now a Christian, describing the difference between the body and the soul. Obviously, the body dies, but NDEs could be what's happening solely to the soul. As Lee explains, a machine can measure brainwaves, but it can't know your thoughts:

The Case for Heaven: Lee Strobel Discusses His Latest Book

FTR, I believe some truth and God can be found in the bible, but there's much to be said for interpretation, which explains the numerous versions, not to mention parables used for explanations.
 
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A Freeman

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PRIDE is concerned with WHO is right.

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One video from:


 

phipps

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@Orwell's mentor
Yes, Red posted the video earlier in the thread. As stated by the doctor, Robert Spetzler said, "It is the height of egotism to say that something didn't happen just because we can't explain it". Below is a video with Lee talking to Sean McDowell that gives a rational explanation by a scientist Sharon Dericks(?) who was a former atheist and now a Christian, describing the difference between the body and the soul. Obviously, the body dies, but NDEs could be what's happening solely to the soul. As Lee explains, a machine can measure brainwaves, but it can't know your thoughts:
Pam was not dead. Biblically we need both our physical bodies and spirit to be alive. One cannot survive without the other. It doesn't matter what anybody says (no matter how educated they are) about the body and spirit. They are not God. They did not create mankind and have power over death. God's Word tells us that the body and spirit cannot be without each other. They cannot be separated. If they separate the person is dead and has no consciousness. People who have NDE's are alive both physically and spiritually. If they were dead they would not have any consciousness at all. Machines that are man-made cannot measure everything in the brain clearly. How do I know? Because God's Word trumps man's words.

The belief that the soul does not die and can live separately from the body is found nowhere in the Bible. The Bible explicitly tells us that the soul can die. “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.” "The soul who sins shall die". (Ezekiel 18:4, 20). There is no getting around the plain words of Scripture, the soul can and does die. The Bible teaches that man’s nature is mortal, a combination of the body and the spirit forms the soul. At death, the soul is sleeping in the grave until the resurrection, because the spirit returns to God and the body returns to the dust.

The belief that the soul can survive without the body is a doctrine straight from paganism. Remember its what the mediums, wizards say happens. They even claim to communicate with the dead but in reality they are communicating with demons because the dead cannot communicate with anyone. Sadly this false doctrine is now believed by Christians in different variations.

We are warned about false doctrines in these last days, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1).

FTR, I believe some truth and God can be found in the bible, but there's much to be said for interpretation, which explains the numerous versions, not to mention parables used for explanations.
There is only one interpretation and one truth to any subject in the Bible.

I choose to believe God over man. I believe He has told us through the Bible exactly what happens when we die and when we will all be resurrected. He has told us when we will be going to heaven too. People do not go to heaven immediately after they die. They are asleep in their graves until Jesus returns. And this makes sense because the Bible constantly talks about a judgment. God has an appointed time for the judgment, and throughout the Bible it is repeatedly talked about as a future event. We are also told, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ . . .” (2 Corinthians 5:10). If a person went directly to heaven or to hell before the judgment day, that would be incredibly unfair. Who has ever heard of a judge condemning a person to prison before he was found guilty? Yet this is what people think God is doing. What a misrepresentation of God! All the dead righteous and wicked are asleep in their graves, awaiting their respective resurrections.

It comforts me to know that our loved ones are asleep in the graves peacefully. I don't think they would enjoy heaven and have any kind of peace knowing and seeing their loved ones suffering in this sinful world. And I said before it would be very cruel of God to take someone to heaven then allow them to come back to this sin polluted and darkened earth. I can imagine how wonderful it would have been to be in God’s presence in the glories of heaven then me returning to this earth after that. It would have been like returning to a prison from which I had been freed. Thankfully God is not that cruel and has never done such a thing according to His Word.

As human beings we don't fully understand any subject completely anyway. Not even the most educated people in their respective fields understand them completely. We may not know why people have NDE's and what causes them but they shouldn't make us question God's Word.
 
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PRIDE is concerned with WHO is right.

HUMILITY is concerned with WHAT is right.




One video from:


Some of this is interesting. I watched the video and see that the founder of IANDS is in it. As well, I see someone in the comment section remarked it's unfortunate they've omitted Jesus from the video, hrmm... I'm assuming there's a longer version somewhere?

I'm also a bit familiar with near-death.com site. I find it's similar to IANDS and that it takes accounts and stories and has no religious bias. That said, it does seem to have some new age jargon on it, which I don't adhere to. It also references Raymond Moody research and he's into reincarnation, which again, to me, doesn't make any sense. I see no logical reason for Heavenly Father to keep bringing us back to this place again and again.

@Orwell's mentor


Pam was not dead. Biblically we need both our physical bodies and spirit to be alive. One cannot survive without the other. It doesn't matter what anybody says (no matter how educated they are) about the body and spirit. They are not God. They did not create mankind and have power over death. God's Word tells us that the body and spirit cannot be without each other. They cannot be separated. If they separate the person is dead and has no consciousness. People who have NDE's are alive both physically and spiritually. If they were dead they would not have any conscious at all. Machines that are man-made cannot measure everything in the brain clearly. How do I know? Because God's Word trumps any man's words.

The belief that the soul does not die and can live separately from the body is found nowhere in the Bible. The Bible explicitly tells us that the soul can die. “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.” "The soul who sins shall die". (Ezekiel 18:4, 20). There is no getting around the plain words of Scripture, the soul can and does die. The Bible teaches that man’s nature is mortal, a combination of the body and the spirit forms the soul. At death, the soul is sleeping in the grave until the resurrection, because the spirit returns to God and the body returns to the dust.

The belief that the soul can survive without the body is a doctrine straight from paganism. Remember its what the mediums, wizards say happens. They even claim to communicate with the dead but in reality they are communicating with demons because dead cannot communicate with anyone. Sadly this false doctrine is now believed by Christians in different variations.

We are warned about false doctrines in these last days, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1).


There is only one interpretation and one truth to any subject in the Bible.

I choose to believe God over man. I believe He has told us through the Bible exactly what happens when we die and when we will all be resurrected. He has told us when we will be going to heaven too. People do not go to heaven immediately after they die. They are asleep in their graves until Jesus returns. And this makes sense because the Bible constantly talks about a judgment. God has an appointed time for the judgment, and throughout the Bible it is repeatedly talked about as a future event. We are also told, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ . . .” (2 Corinthians 5:10). If a person went directly to heaven or to hell before the judgment day, that would be incredibly unfair. Who has ever heard of a judge condemning a person to prison before he was found guilty? Yet this is what people think God is doing. What a misrepresentation of God! All the dead righteous and wicked are asleep in their graves, awaiting their respective resurrections.

It comforts me to know that our loved ones are asleep in the graves peacefully. I don't think they would enjoy heaven and have any kind of peace knowing and seeing their loved ones suffering in this sinful world. And I said before it would be very cruel of God to take someone to heaven then allow them to come back to this sin polluted and darkened earth. I can imagine how wonderful it would have been to be in God’s presence in the glories of heaven then me returning to this earth after that. It would have been like returning to a prison from which I had been freed. Thankfully God is not that cruel and has never done such a thing according to His Word.

As human beings we don't fully understand any subject completely anyway. Not even the most educated people in their respective fields understand them completely. We may not know why people have NDE's and what causes them but they shouldn't make us question God's Word.
I agree with you with your last paragraph as we don't know or understand what's going on, which is why I created the thread. I looked up Ezekiel 18:4, 20 and got tired of reading the explanations/interpretations for it. Basically, it could mean that the souls/spirits go back to the Heavenly Father. I began doing the same for 1 Timothy 4:1 and the explanation that made the most sense is those that don't believe in HIm, their spirits will die, but it mentions nothing about actual spirit itself if it does. With regard to 2 Corinthians 5:10, no one is being judged because they're not dead. They're describing an event they feel is extraordinary.

People are "asleep in their graves" because the dead can't be contacted. To me, that's old news, and it's what the occult meddles in. Although, NDEs could be a spiritual experience that is beyond the physical world where there is a connection, I don't know. As I've stated earlier, some seem to have had inter-dimensional experiences, while others claimed that what they experienced brought them to faith and now believe that Jesus is the way to the Heavenly Father. What's demonic about that? Especially if there are those who've recovered and have now changed their careers to help others in need.

Simply quoting scripture to explain things is what @Lisa used to do, and it still doesn't explain the experience.
 
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Once you're out of your body you realize you aren't your body. Life appears as God's dream and you're suddenly awake in it. I've experienced that state twice in my life. You can't ever forget it.
Sir,
Out of your body by being preposterously inside your body though!
No?
 
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PRIDE is concerned with WHO is right.

HUMILITY is concerned with WHAT is right.




One video from:


PRIDE is concerned with WHO is right.

HUMILITY is concerned with WHAT is right.
Great words Sire. Thanks for sharing. My humble gratitude.
 

phipps

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I agree with you with your last paragraph as we don't know or understand what's going on, which is why I created the thread. I looked up Ezekiel 18:4, 20 and got tired of reading the explanations/interpretations for it. Basically, it could mean that the souls/spirits go back to the Heavenly Father. I began doing the same for 1 Timothy 4:1 and the explanation that made the most sense is those that don't believe in HIm, their spirits will die, but it mentions nothing about actual spirit itself if it does. With regard to 2 Corinthians 5:10, no one is being judged because they're not dead. They're describing an event they feel is extraordinary.

People are "asleep in their graves" because the dead can't be contacted. To me, that's old news, and it's what the occult meddles in. Although, NDEs could be a spiritual experience that is beyond the physical world where there is a connection, I don't know. As I've stated earlier, some seem to have had inter-dimensional experiences, while others claimed that what they experienced brought them to faith and now believe that Jesus is the way to the Heavenly Father. What's demonic about that? Especially if there are those who've recovered and have now changed their careers to help others in need.

Simply quoting scripture to explain things is what @Lisa used to do, and it still doesn't explain the experience.
I agree with you with your last paragraph as we don't know or understand what's going on, which is why I created the thread. I looked up Ezekiel 18:4, 20 and got tired of reading the explanations/interpretations for it. Basically, it could mean that the souls/spirits go back to the Heavenly Father.
Why don't you make sure you know what it means by studying the Bible. Instead of saying, "it could mean that the souls/spirits go back to the Heavenly Father." The answer is in the Bible and its only one interpretation.

The first thing you've got to understand, is the different ways the Bible uses the words "spirit" and "spirits" and in what context.

The Bible uses the word "spirit" to mean breath of life in the context of creation and death. In Genesis 2:7 we are told, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." The KJV it uses the word living soul not being. So God created Adam physically but God had to breath in him the breath of life then Adam became a living being. The Bible uses breath of life and spirit interchangeably in verses about death (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Psalms 104:29; Acts 7:59).

This spirit is the breath of the life that characterises a person. It is God who gave it to us (Isaiah. 42:5), and it is He who takes it back when we die (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Psalms 104:29; Acts 7:59). Nowhere in the Bible is the spirit defined as a self-conscious entity that existed before the body was created or continues after death. I explain this in more detail in this post in my thread: Death, the State of the Dead, and Resurrection according to the Bible.

When we die the opposite of life takes place. Our spirits (breath of life) return to God and our bodies return to the dust where we came from and we stop being living beings/souls. When that happens, we have absolutely no consciousness at all. We cannot dream, hallucinate, communicate etc. NDE's happen with the living.

I began doing the same for 1 Timothy 4:1 and the explanation that made the most sense is those that don't believe in HIm, their spirits will die, but it mentions nothing about actual spirit itself if it does.
"... the explanation that made the most sense is ..."? Shouldn't you find out the one true answer instead of choosing from different explanations what makes more sense to you?

1 Timothy 4:1, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons."

The first Spirit mentioned in this verse with a capital S that I've underlined is talking about the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit said some people will depart from the true faith of God and believe false doctrines of deceiving spirits and demons. Demons are fallen angels and the deceiving spirits involve both deceiving people and demons.

The Bible sometimes uses the word "spirits" to mean angels. There are good and evil spirits in the Bible. Here are few examples:

Hebrews 1:14, "Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?"

Revelation 16:14, "For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."


Another way the Bible uses the word "spirit" is to define us as individuals and what characters we have. We read about people with a “haughty spirit” (Proverbs 16:18), “spirit of jealousy” (Numbers 5:30), “spirit of wisdom” (Exodus 28:3), “spirit of the world” (1 Corinthians 2:12), “gentle spirit” (1 Corinthians 4:21), etc. These are all character traits that express the nature of a person, what a person has become. Because we have spirit, a life force, we are able to direct our lives, to be architects of it, to develop our own characters with or without God. When we die God preserves our characters, and at the resurrection we are brought back to life with the character that we had developed before we died.

The deceiving spirits in 1 Timothy 4:1 include people who deceive in terms of their characters. But they are not dead since dead people cannot do anything under the sun including lying.

With regard to 2 Corinthians 5:10, no one is being judged because they're not dead. They're describing an event they feel is extraordinary.
2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

The verse says we will all be judged. That includes both dead and alive and this harmonises with what the whole Bible teaches from the Old to the New Testament about judgement. Biblically, every single person that has ever lived on this earth is going to be judged.

People are "asleep in their graves" because the dead can't be contacted. To me, that's old news, and it's what the occult meddles in. Although, NDEs could be a spiritual experience that is beyond the physical world where there is a connection, I don't know. As I've stated earlier, some seem to have had inter-dimensional experiences, while others claimed that what they experienced brought them to faith and now believe that Jesus is the way to the Heavenly Father. What's demonic about that? Especially if there are those who've recovered and have now changed their careers to help others in need.
If you believe that NDE's could be a spiritual experience beyond the physical world then I'm sorry to break it to you, that is occult teaching because its not from the Bible is it? It is a variation of what occultism teaches. Just like purgatory is a different variation of what occultism teaches. Its all false doctrine. The Bible is very clear that a person cannot be dead physically and their spirit be alive somewhere else.

As I also posted before one can believe in Jesus with the wrong doctrine. In fact most Christians do but that doesn't make it right. Wrong doctrine is very dangerous and demonic because it keeps us from understanding God as we should. It distorts who God really is. John 16:13 says, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come." The Holy Spirit won't guide us into half truths, it will be all truth. Biblically mixing truth with error or light with darkness is wrong. The Bible says, “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump” (Galatians 5:9).

"Truth mixed with error is equivalent to all error, except that it is more innocent looking and, therefore, more dangerous. God hates such a mixture! Any error, or any truth-and-error mixture, calls for definite exposure and repudiation. To condone such is to be unfaithful to God and His Word and treacherous to imperiled souls for whom Christ died." -H. A. Ironside

Plus the Bible tells us to expose deception, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them" (Ephesians 5:11).

Simply quoting scripture to explain things is what @Lisa used to do, and it still doesn't explain the experience.
No one not even doctors know why these experiences happen. We have to accept that certain things are unexplainable and we will never understand them in this world. If we make it to eternal life with Christ, we will understand many things that baffled us in this world.

You've read some of my threads and posts. I don't just quote scripture. I try to explain it as much as I can (as I've done here) and when I can't, I quote other people who do a better job of explaining than I can. Its the reason why a lot of my posts are long (like this one). Its also the reason why I have entire threads on one subject from the Bible. However some Bible passages are self explanatory.

Remember though that understanding scripture is something the Holy spirit helps us with and guides us to. A person has got to be willing to understand God's truth, be willing to study the Bible and to invite God through prayer for the Holy Spirit to help them understand His Word and to be able to discern truth from error.
 
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The first time I was 4 years old. It was probably easier to pop out back then. Later, in my 30s, it took meditating with a friend on some nice strong drugs.
Not really sure on drugs. Albeit, that is exactly the thing - imho - by repeated practice, that experience has to be made so robust and second nature - that it is lived with eyes open also (i.e. in the matrix / existence / life / Universe / etc.)

Religions are all merely theory unfortunately.. we human beings are sleeping (with eyes open).. waiting for something, don't even know waiting for what? (probably expiration? because some text has had made us so convinced, without any sort of proof whatsoever though, of what exactly is going to happen post expiration that human beings have become very enamored with expiration and hence are not bothered to make this existence and planet Heaven itself! - not in a materialistic kind of way, but to be overflowing with benevolence and kindness!)

But, on the other hand, contrary to religions, practical is practical! If you know, you know.
 
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Why don't you make sure you know what it means by studying the Bible. Instead of saying, "it could mean that the souls/spirits go back to the Heavenly Father." The answer is in the Bible and its only one interpretation.

The first thing you've got to understand, is the different ways the Bible uses the words "spirit" and "spirits" and in what context.

The Bible uses the word "spirit" to mean breath of life in the context of creation and death. In Genesis 2:7 we are told, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." The KJV it uses the word living soul not being. So God created Adam physically but God had to breath in him the breath of life then Adam became a living being. The Bible uses breath of life and spirit interchangeably in verses about death (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Psalms 104:29; Acts 7:59).

This spirit is the breath of the life that characterises a person. It is God who gave it to us (Isaiah. 42:5), and it is He who takes it back when we die (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Psalms 104:29; Acts 7:59). Nowhere in the Bible is the spirit defined as a self-conscious entity that existed before the body was created or continues after death. I explain this in more detail in this post in my thread: Death, the State of the Dead, and Resurrection according to the Bible.

When we die the opposite of life takes place. Our spirits (breath of life) return to God and our bodies return to the dust where we came from and we stop being living beings/souls. When that happens, we have absolutely no consciousness at all. We cannot dream, hallucinate, communicate etc. NDE's happen with the living.


"... the explanation that made the most sense is ..."? Shouldn't you find out the one true answer instead of choosing from different explanations what makes more sense to you?

1 Timothy 4:1, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons."

The first Spirit mentioned in this verse with a capital S that I've underlined is talking about the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit said some people will depart from the true faith of God and believe false doctrines of deceiving spirits and demons. Demons are fallen angels and the deceiving spirits involve both deceiving people and demons.

The Bible sometimes uses the word "spirits" to mean angels. There are good and evil spirits in the Bible. Here are few examples:

Hebrews 1:14, "Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?"

Revelation 16:14, "For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."


Another way the Bible uses the word "spirit" is to define us as individuals and what characters we have. We read about people with a “haughty spirit” (Proverbs 16:18), “spirit of jealousy” (Numbers 5:30), “spirit of wisdom” (Exodus 28:3), “spirit of the world” (1 Corinthians 2:12), “gentle spirit” (1 Corinthians 4:21), etc. These are all character traits that express the nature of a person, what a person has become. Because we have spirit, a life force, we are able to direct our lives, to be architects of it, to develop our own characters with or without God. When we die God preserves our characters, and at the resurrection we are brought back to life with the character that we had developed before we died.

The deceiving spirits in 1 Timothy 4:1 include people who deceive in terms of their characters. But they are not dead since dead people cannot do anything under the sun including lying.



2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

The verse says we will all be judged. That includes both dead and alive and this harmonises with what the whole Bible teaches from the Old to the New Testament about judgement. Biblically, every single person that has ever lived on this earth is going to be judged.


If you believe that NDE's could be a spiritual experience beyond the physical world then I'm sorry to break it to you, that is occult teaching because its not from the Bible is it? It is a variation of what occultism teaches. Just like purgatory is a different variation of what occultism teaches. Its all false doctrine. The Bible is very clear that a person cannot be dead physically and their spirit be alive somewhere else.

As I also posted before one can believe in Jesus with the wrong doctrine. In fact most Christians do but that doesn't make it right. Wrong doctrine is very dangerous and demonic because it keeps us from understanding God as we should. It distorts who God really is. John 16:13 says, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come." The Holy Spirit won't guide us into half truths, it will be all truth. Biblically mixing truth with error or light with darkness is wrong. The Bible says, “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump” (Galatians 5:9).

"Truth mixed with error is equivalent to all error, except that it is more innocent looking and, therefore, more dangerous. God hates such a mixture! Any error, or any truth-and-error mixture, calls for definite exposure and repudiation. To condone such is to be unfaithful to God and His Word and treacherous to imperiled souls for whom Christ died." -H. A. Ironside

Plus the Bible tells us to expose deception, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them" (Ephesians 5:11).


No one not even doctors know why these experiences happen. We have to accept that certain things are unexplainable and we will never understand them in this world. If we make it to eternal life with Christ, we will understand many things that baffled us in this world.

You've read some of my threads and posts. I don't just quote scripture. I try to explain it as much as I can (as I've done here) and when I can't, I quote other people who do a better job of explaining than I can. Its the reason why a lot of my posts are long (like this one). Its also the reason why I have entire threads on one subject from the Bible. However some Bible passages are self explanatory.

Remember though that understanding scripture is something the Holy spirit helps us with and guides us to. A person has got to be willing to understand God's truth, be willing to study the Bible and to invite God through prayer for the Holy Spirit to help them understand His Word and to be able to discern truth from error.
Your post is TL;DR, but I did read the first and last paragraph. I honestly don't understand the salty attitude you're bringing to this thread, phipps. You're entitled to believe what you want to believe and that means how you interpret the bible. I've posted videos who have actually discussed the issue with biblical scholars who are well-versed in Christian theology, and they're suggesting that some NDEs are could be glimpses of heaven, not me.

You posted bible verses and conceding I didn't know what they meant, I looked them up and realized they're various interpretations. What exactly are you angry at? The fact that there are many interpretations, or the fact that you yourself could be misinterpreting them? Are you a neurologist, theologian or a disciple that can explain the millions of these experiences?

Again, I agree with you last paragraph as I've stated no one knows for certain what's happening when people are experiencing NDEs. You stating otherwise is your ego doing what it can to negate that something beyond the physical is happening with NDEs. I'll post John 11:23–26 as I'm pretty sure it's not out of context (bold emphasis mine):

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
 

Alanantic

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Not really sure on drugs. Albeit, that is exactly the thing - imho - by repeated practice, that experience has to be made so robust and second nature - that it is lived with eyes open also (i.e. in the matrix / existence / life / Universe / etc.)

Religions are all merely theory unfortunately.. we human beings are sleeping (with eyes open).. waiting for something, don't even know waiting for what? (probably expiration? because some text has had made us so convinced, without any sort of proof whatsoever though, of what exactly is going to happen post expiration that human beings have become very enamored with expiration and hence are not bothered to make this existence and planet Heaven itself! - not in a materialistic kind of way, but to be overflowing with benevolence and kindness!)

But, on the other hand, contrary to religions, practical is practical! If you know, you know.
One thing I like about Eastern religions is the emphasis on "experience" as opposed to Western "belief" or having "faith". Also, the goals are different. But, all religions are drenched in mythology and literal interpretations are rampant in both east & west.
 

phipps

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Your post is TL;DR, but I did read the first and last paragraph. I honestly don't understand the salty attitude you're bringing to this thread, phipps. You're entitled to believe what you want to believe and that means how you interpret the bible. I've posted videos who have actually discussed the issue with biblical scholars who are well-versed in Christian theology, and they're suggesting that some NDEs are could be glimpses of heaven, not me.

You posted bible verses and conceding I didn't know what they meant, I looked them up and realized they're various interpretations. What exactly are you angry at? The fact that there are many interpretations, or the fact that you yourself could be misinterpreting them? Are you a neurologist, theologian or a disciple that can explain the millions of these experiences?

Again, I agree with you last paragraph as I've stated no one knows for certain what's happening when people are experiencing NDEs. You stating otherwise is your ego doing what it can to negate that something beyond the physical is happening with NDEs. I'll post John 11:23–26 as I'm pretty sure it's not out of context (bold emphasis mine):

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Your post is TL;DR, but I did read the first and last paragraph. I honestly don't understand the salty attitude you're bringing to this thread, phipps. You're entitled to believe what you want to believe and that means how you interpret the bible. I've posted videos who have actually discussed the issue with biblical scholars who are well-versed in Christian theology, and they're suggesting that some NDEs are could be glimpses of heaven, not me.
So having a discussion that is opposed to yours makes me salty? Wow! For your information I am not salty at all. I also know there are others who are reading this thread whether or not you read my posts.

I know my bluntness may be a turn off for some people especially when I disagree with them but I think its the only way to be so as not to be misunderstood. So here goes...

The Christian theologians are wrong if they suggest that NDE's are glimpses into heaven. Why then do the NDE's all have different versions of what heaven is (this includes that non Christian ones)? Which NDE should we believe to have the right glimpse into heaven?

You posted bible verses and conceding I didn't know what they meant, I looked them up and realized they're various interpretations. What exactly are you angry at? The fact that there are many interpretations, or the fact that you yourself could be misinterpreting them?
I am not angry. Actually I am calm. There is only one interpretation to any subject in the Bible not various ones. I do not claim to know everything in the Bible on any subject (no one does) but I know I am not misinterpreting it. What I posted harmonises with the rest of the Bible on the subject.

Are you a neurologist, theologian or a disciple that can explain the millions of these experiences?
I see, so only these people can explain NDE's? I suppose to you God does not count in this equation does He? You've completely dismissed Him and His Word that's for sure. Those people no matter how educated they are in their respective fields, no matter how revered they are, are not God! What God says trumps everything they have to say put together. They do not know everything do they? That is why they all have different explanations and different stories. That should be a clue that they have no clue!

What I like about the Bible is that no matter what level of education someone has, they can understand the truth of God's Word because the Holy Spirit that leads people to understand God does not pick only educated people from certain fields to know and understand certain subjects from the Bible. As long as a person is willing to understand and prays to God to lead them to the truth they will find God's truth.

Again, I agree with you last paragraph as I've stated no one knows for certain what's happening when people are experiencing NDEs. You stating otherwise is your ego doing what it can to negate that something beyond the physical is happening with NDEs. I'll post John 11:23–26 as I'm pretty sure it's not out of context (bold emphasis mine):
I thought we were having a discussion but it appears you're the one who is angry. Truth does anger people. It really is not about my ego. Its about God's truth.

Whatever these people experience does not change the fact that they are not dead and their spirits separated from their physical bodies according to God's Word unless you think you can pick and choose what truths to believe in from the Bible. Actually that is what you're doing isn't it?

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
When Jesus said that those who believe shall never die, he was talking about eternal life that we will receive when He returns. That is why Jesus also said, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live" (John 11:25).

In the Bible there are two deaths. The first one is the death that everybody shall experience except the righteous living who will be found alive and will be translated to heaven along with the resurrected righteous along with Christ. This first death was the punishment for Adam and Eve's sin in the garden of Eden. God said to Adam, "Cursed is the ground for your sake; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, and you shall eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you shall return" (Genesis 3:17-19). Since then people have been dying in this world, righteous and unrighteous alike. They are all in their graves unconscious and their spirits returned to God awaiting Jesus' returns. The righteous' spirits are not languishing somewhere without their physical bodies. They are completely dead until they hear the trumpet of Christ.

The righteous will only become immortal after Jesus returns the second time and not before. Remember what 1 Corinthians 15:51–55 says, "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” "

The second death is the final punishment of unrepentant sinners, Satan and his demons. All those whose names are not written is the book of life will face the second death. From this death there is no resurrection. With the destruction of Satan and the unrighteous, sin will be eradicated and death itself will be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26; Revelation 20:14; 21:8). Christ has given the assurance that everyone "who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death" (Revelation 2:11).

This is the truth of God's Word. I'll let this be my last comment here because you are angry and that was not my intention.

God bless.
 
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Another intriguing documentary that references biblical accounts and even scientists investigating heaven. No one will probably watch it, but posting it for those who might be. :D Some scientists have said that there is a "hole" in the northern part of the universe, where heaven might be located. Although, it's 21 billion light years away so... The host, Jerry Rose does mention John 20:30, 31 near the end, and also says this:

"I think we would agree that heaven is not just a fantasy sprung from a fanciful imagination. Heaven is real. As one of the experts testified, perhaps more real than where we now stand. If heaven is real, than that means it's dark alternative must also be real. Then perhaps the important question of all is the question of your eternal destiny and where you'll spend it. The amazing fact is, it's your choice."

It relates to what I stated in the OP is these events appear to derive from what an individual believes.


Near Death Experiences & NDE Research - The Evidence For Heaven Full Documentary (1:10:26)
 
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Another intriguing documentary that references biblical accounts and even scientists investigating heaven. No one will probably watch it, but posting it for those who might be. :D Some scientists have said that there is a "hole" in the northern part of the universe, where heaven might be located. Although, it's 21 billion light years away so... The host, Jerry Rose does mention John 20:30, 31 near the end, and also says this:

"I think we would agree that heaven is not just a fantasy sprung from a fanciful imagination. Heaven is real. As one of the experts testified, perhaps more real than where we now stand. If heaven is real, than that means it's dark alternative must also be real. Then perhaps the important question of all is the question of your eternal destiny and where you'll spend it. The amazing fact is, it's your choice."

It relates to what I stated in the OP is these events appear to derive from what an individual believes.


Near Death Experiences & NDE Research - The Evidence For Heaven Full Documentary (1:10:26)
I haven't really watched your video (because its a bit long) but I read the same thing, that heaven is reachable through some kind of portal but in the Orion constellation. Supposedly this planet will reach that spot in the year 3000. (After Christ's Millenium reign). It's an interesting concept anyway.
 
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