Proof from God that the Quran has been altered

A Freeman

Superstar
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
6,725
There is a common, mistaken belief taught throughout “Islam” by its spiritually blind leaders that the Koran/Quran has never been tampered with, but the Bible has, even though God (Allah, YHWH, the “I AM”) has warned us in His Koran that He NEVER sends a messenger that Lucifer/Satan/Iblis doesn't try to throw in some vanity to oppose God. We're even told why God allows this.

Sura 6:112. Likewise We made for EVERY Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and Beings (human+beings), inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.

Sura 22:52-55
22:52. NEVER did We send an Apostle or a Prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but "I AM" will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and "I AM" WILL CONFIRM (AND ESTABLISH) HIS SIGNS (Sura 32:23): for "I AM" is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
22:53. THAT HE MAY MAKE THE SUGGESTIONS THROWN IN BY SATAN, BUT A TRIAL FOR THOSE IN WHOSE HEARTS IS A DISEASE AND WHO ARE HARDENED OF HEART: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth):
22:54. And that those on whom Knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Koran) is the Truth from thy Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily "I AM" is the Guide, of those who believe, to The Straight Way (Matthew 7:13-14, John 14:6, Sura 3:55, Sura 43:57-59).
22:55. Those who reject Faith will not cease to be in doubt concerning (Revelation) until The Hour (of Judgment) comes suddenly upon them, or there comes to them the Penalty of a Day of Disaster.

Anyone who falsely claims the Koran hasn't been altered is therefore calling God a liar and, in so doing, is working for Satan, to help him cover up his obvious and vain additions, unwittingly or otherwise. Never means never.

One cannot call God a liar and claim to be doing God's Will (Islam in Arabic).

Along with God's Calendar, God sent specific instructions to Enoch on how to recognize and correct errors in Scripture caused by idiots and barbarians doing Satan's bidding to throw in his suggestions, thereby leading astray all but the “Elect”.


THE INCORRECT WRITING OF GOD'S WORDS PROPHESIED:-

Enoch 104:8 They shall speak evil things; they shall utter falsehood (ch. 97:2); create a great creation (false religions and religious traditions and technology); and compose books of their own words (books of man-made legislation, rules, etc.; books of the religious traditions of their fathers; novels; etc.; etc.; etc. - ch. 68:13).

See also: Matthew 18:16-20, 2 Thess. 2:7-12, Sura 6:112-115, Sura 22:52-55, Sura 25:31)


HOW TO RECOGNISE AND CORRECT THE MISTAKES:-

But when they shall write correctly all My words in their own languages,

Enoch 104:9-11
104:9 They (My words) shall neither change nor diminish (Deut. 4:2, 12:32, Matt. 5:17-19, Mark 13:31); but when all shall be written correctly; ALL, which from the first I have uttered concerning them SHALL CONCUR (John 10:35; Sura 15:9-10).
104:10 Another secret also I point out. To the righteous and the wise shall be given Books of joy, of integrity, and of great Wisdom. To them shall Books be given (Rev. 10:7-10, Rev. 2:17), in which they shall believe (and Live by);
104:11 And in which they shall rejoice. And all the righteous shall be rewarded, who from these (Books) shall acquire the Knowledge of The Straight Way (Matt. 7:13-14, John 14:6, Rev. 14:1-4, Sura 6:153-161).

This is how and why ANY additions or alterations made to Scripture (Old Covenant, New Covenant or the Koran) stick out like a sore thumb, and how we can know when something has been removed. An example of recognizing something has been wrongfully removed is the Book of Enoch (Idris) itself. See: Gen. 5:22-24, Sol. 4:10, Wis. 44:16, Heb. 11:5, and Sura 19:56-57, where Enoch stands out as the only one ever to be "translated". If Father (God) raised Enoch to such a lofty station, shouldn't the Book that God gave Enoch be carefully considered and studied as part of His Word? Doesn't ALL of God's Word prove itself to be true?

Of course this same, simple approach to recognizing and correcting the vanity (lies) Satan has thrown into Scripture is addressed in The Law and confirmed in the Koran:

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Sura 39:23. "I AM" (Allah) has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, CONSISTENT WITH ITSELF, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of "I AM"'s praises (Prov. 1:7; 9:10). Such is the Guidance from "I AM": He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as "I AM" leaves to stray, can have none to guide.

Plainly stated, it's impossible for a key term to appear only once in Scripture, as it MUST have multiple witnesses (Num. 35:30, Deut. 17:6, Deut. 19:15) in accordance with The Law that God assuredly gave us in the first five books of the Bible. This should be self-evident, as any single-use term would need to agree with another witness to be CONSISTENT.

Consistency is the key that God gave us to guard and protect ALL of His Word from corruption at the hands of Lucifer/Satan/Iblis and the evil ones among men that he sends to throw in his vile/evil suggestions, like the pagan feast of Ramadan (Deut. 12:8).


Note 1: The Koran (Quran) itself was NOT originally written in Arabic, a language that wasn't invented until centuries after Muhammad's passing. The Arabian tongue/language at the time of Muhammad was SYRIAC (Syro-Aramaic).

Note 2: The Koran (Quran) itself plainly and repeatedly states that it was sent to CONFIRM the Old Covenant and New Covenant before it. The Koran therefore MUST be consistent with God's Message in The Law and the Gospel, found only in the Bible, as God sent through ALL of His Messengers, Prophets and Apostles.
 
Last edited:

A Freeman

Superstar
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
6,725
Example #1: Sura 2:125 and 127 were both altered in what is considered to be the "original Arabic", when it was translated from Syriac into the newly invented language now known as Arabic (c. late 9th century AD, under the Abbasid dynasty, in Bagdhad). The alteration was substituting Ishmael for Isaac. The original text read as follows:-


Sura 2:125-127
2:125. Remember We made The House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety and take ye The Station of Abraham (Mt. Moriah - Gen. 22:2) as a place of prayer and We Covenanted with Abraham and Isaac (Gen. 17:21), that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (there, in prayer).
2:126. And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of PEACE (Jeru-SALEM in Hebrew), and feed its people with fruits,- such of them as believe God and in the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,- for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
2:127. And remember Abraham and Isaac (Gen. 17:21, 22:2; Sura 37:101-102, 112-113) raised the foundations of The House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

It should be self-evident that the word Mecca does NOT mean "city of Peace" (makkah actually means physical altercation/confrontation), whereas the word Jerusalem DOES mean City of Peace in Hebrew.


THE GOOD NEWS OF A BOY

(PROOF that Abraham offered ISAAC)


Sura 37:101 And We gave Abraham the "good news" of a boy ready to suffer and forbear (through the angel messengers We sent to him).

Sura 37:102 Then, when the boy reached the age of serious work with him Abraham said, "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice."

Sura 37:112 And We gave him the "good news" of Isaac - a prophet - one of the righteous (through the angel messengers We sent to him).

Sura 37:113 We blessed Abraham and Isaac.

Sura 6:84 And We gave Abraham Isaac and Jacob: all three We guided aright.

Sura 38:45-46 And commemorate Our servants Abraham, Isaac (not Ishmael), and Jacob, possessors of Power and Vision. Verily did We choose them for a special purpose - proclaiming the Message of the Hereafter. They were in Our sight, truly, of the company of the Elect and the good.

Sura 11:71 And We gave Abraham the glad tidings ("good news") of Isaac and after him Jacob / Israel (the son of Isaac).

Sura 15:54 "Good news" of a son.

Sura 51:28 Glad tidings ("good news") of a son (Isaac - "laughter" in Hebrew) and Sarah laughed being 90 years old (the word Isaac means laughter and because Sarah laughed the child was named "laughter" - Isaac in Hebrew).

We gave the "good news" means "news from God" via an angel messenger. No angel was ever sent to Abraham to announce the birth of Ishmael and this is born-out by all of the Holy Scriptures. He was born because of Sarai (Sarah) not because of God and was born to an Egyptian surrogate-mother, called Hagar.

All of the references of "good news" refer to Isaac and not to Ishmael, proving that the compilers of the "original Arabic" Koran/Quran changed the name Isaac for Ishmael in Sura 2:125 and 127.

God's COVENANT Promise was to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel, NOT to Ishmael. However Ishmael was blessed by God, later, when Abraham, who loved him, asked God to let Ishmael live before God (Genesis 17:18-20).

This should also help explain why the original Qibla was to Jeru-SALEM.
 

A Freeman

Superstar
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
6,725
Irrefutable proof that Ishmael has been added or substituted for a Prophet (Ishmael obviously was NOT a prophet, and God clearly did make a distinction between Isaac (from whom the Children of Israel descended) and Ishmael (see Gal. 4:22-26):-


Ishmael additions made to the original and true Koran/Quran (in red)

Sura 2:136. Say ye: “We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes [of Israel], and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we yield our wills to God’s Will (as they all said and did).”

Sura 2:140. Or do ye say that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the [twelve] Tribes were Jews or Christians?” Say: “Do ye know better than God?” Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from God? But God is NOT unaware of what ye do!

Sura 3:84. Say: “We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob-Israel, and the (twelve) Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will.”

Sura 4:163. We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: We sent inspiration to Abraham; Ishmael; Isaac; Jacob-Israel and the (twelve) Tribes (of Israel); to Aaron; Job; Solomon son of David; Jonah; Jesus; and to David We gave the Psalms (in the Old Covenant/Testament. Note well Psalm 22).

Note well: The Covenant (and the revelation and inspiration that The Covenant brought) was established with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel (see Sura 38:45-46), from whom Moses, Jesus and ALL of the prophets were descended; NOT with Ishmael. Father (God) separated Ishmael from Abraham and Isaac when Ishmael was 15 or 16 years old, although Ishmael was later blessed.


Ishmael substitutions made to the original and true Koran/Quran (in red, followed by the correction back to the true original text)

Sura 2:125-127
2:125. Remember We made The House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety and take ye The Station of Abraham (Mt. Moriah - Gen. 22:2) as a place of prayer and We Covenanted with Abraham and Ishmael Isaac (Gen. 17:21), that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (there, in prayer).
2:126. And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of PEACE (Jeru-SALEM in Hebrew), and feed its people with fruits,- such of them as believe God and in the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,- for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
2:127. And remember Abraham and Ishmael Isaac (Gen. 17:21, 22:2; Sura 37:101-102, 112-113) raised the foundations of The House* (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

*The "House of Israel" (NOT some polytheistic pagan temple that God condemned); the Children of Israel are descended from Abraham through ISAAC, NOT through Ishmael


Sura 6:86. And Elisha (1 kings 19:19) and Ishmael Samuel (Wisdom 46:13-15), and Jonah, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations:

Sura 19:54. Also mention in the Book (the story of) Ishmael Samuel: he was (strictly) true to what he promised (Numbers 6:1-8), and he was an Apostle (and) a Prophet (1 Sam. 3:20).

Sura 21:85. And (remember) Ishmael Samuel (1 Sam. 2:26), Enoch (Gen. 5:22), and Ezekiel (Ezek. 24:24), all (men) of constancy and patience;

Sura 38:48. And commemorate Ishmael Samuel (Jer. 15:1), Elisha (1 kings 19:19), and Ezekiel (Wisdom 49:8-9): Each of them was of the Company of the Righteous.


All of these satanic additions and substitutions of Ishmael have been corrected in the King of kings' Bible, so that the Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran/Quran are in perfect harmony, as they were always meant to be (Sura 39:23).
 
Last edited:

TrollingTroubles

Established
Joined
Jun 27, 2021
Messages
317
Irrefutable proof that Ishmael has been added or substituted for a Prophet (Ishmael obviously was NOT a prophet, and God clearly did make a distinction between Isaac (from whom the Children of Israel descended) and Ishmael (see Gal. 4:22-26):-


Ishmael additions made to the original and true Koran/Quran (in red)

Sura 2:136. Say ye: “We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes [of Israel], and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we yield our wills to God’s Will (as they all said and did).”

Sura 2:140. Or do ye say that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the [twelve] Tribes were Jews or Christians?” Say: “Do ye know better than God?” Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from God? But God is NOT unaware of what ye do!

Sura 3:84. Say: “We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob-Israel, and the (twelve) Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will.”

Sura 4:163. We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: We sent inspiration to Abraham; Ishmael; Isaac; Jacob-Israel and the (twelve) Tribes (of Israel); to Aaron; Job; Solomon son of David; Jonah; Jesus; and to David We gave the Psalms (in the Old Covenant/Testament. Note well Psalm 22).

Note well: The Covenant (and the revelation and inspiration that The Covenant brought) was established with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel (see Sura 38:45-46), from whom Moses, Jesus and ALL of the prophets were descended; NOT with Ishmael. Father (God) separated Ishmael from Abraham and Isaac when Ishmael was 15 or 16 years old, although Ishmael was later blessed.


Ishmael substitutions made to the original and true Koran/Quran (in red, followed by the correction back to the true original text)

Sura 2:125-127
2:125. Remember We made The House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety and take ye The Station of Abraham (Mt. Moriah - Gen. 22:2) as a place of prayer and We Covenanted with Abraham and Ishmael Isaac (Gen. 17:21), that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (there, in prayer).
2:126. And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of PEACE (Jeru-SALEM in Hebrew), and feed its people with fruits,- such of them as believe God and in the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,- for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
2:127. And remember Abraham and Ishmael Isaac (Gen. 17:21, 22:2; Sura 37:101-102, 112-113) raised the foundations of The House* (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

*The "House of Israel" (NOT some polytheistic pagan temple that God condemned); the Children of Israel are descended from Abraham through ISAAC, NOT through Ishmael


Sura 6:86. And Elisha (1 kings 19:19) and Ishmael Samuel (Wisdom 46:13-15), and Jonah, and Lot: and to all We gave favour above the nations:

Sura 19:54. Also mention in the Book (the story of) Ishmael Samuel: he was (strictly) true to what he promised (Numbers 6:1-8), and he was an Apostle (and) a Prophet (1 Sam. 3:20).

Sura 21:85. And (remember) Ishmael Samuel (1 Sam. 2:26), Enoch (Gen. 5:22), and Ezekiel (Ezek. 24:24), all (men) of constancy and patience;

Sura 38:48. And commemorate Ishmael Samuel (Jer. 15:1), Elisha (1 kings 19:19), and Ezekiel (Wisdom 49:8-9): Each of them was of the Company of the Righteous.


All of these satanic additions and substitutions of Ishmael have been corrected in the King of kings' Bible, so that the Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran/Quran are in perfect harmony, as they were always meant to be (Sura 39:23).
You make up a lot of shit
 

A Freeman

Superstar
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
6,725
You make up a lot of shit
You must be confused.

The people who made up a complete load of nonsense were the satanists in Baghdad who altered the true, original Koran/Quran, originally written in the Arabian tongue of Syro-Aramaic (Syriac), c. the 9th century, when these satanists invented the hadith and sirah, along with the Arabic language, myths about Mecca and Medina and the rest of the made-up stories needed to create the organized religion that deceitfully refers to itself as "Islam".

The Arab (Ishmaelite) penchant for story-telling, euphemistically referred to as the "Islamic tradition" is predicated solely upon myth. But those who have been satanically programmed and trained to see lies as truth and the truth as a lie, as you undoubtedly have, know only to irrationally attack the messenger who is revealing the truth to them.

Doesn't that explain why all you seem to be able to do is sling foul utterances in my direction?

We both know you cannot provide a single reference to the children of Ishmael from the Koran/Quran, nor a single prophecy attributed to Ishmael, nor explain how Ishmael could have been a prophet when God plainly stated that no prophet or warner had ever been sent to the Arabs/Ishmaelites before Muhammad.

For those interested in the truth about Ishmael, please visit the link below:-


Peace be upon you.
 

TrollingTroubles

Established
Joined
Jun 27, 2021
Messages
317
You must be confused.

The people who made up a complete load of nonsense were the satanists in Baghdad who altered the true, original Koran/Quran, originally written in the Arabian tongue of Syro-Aramaic (Syriac), c. the 9th century, when these satanists invented the hadith and sirah, along with the Arabic language, myths about Mecca and Medina and the rest of the made-up stories needed to create the organized religion that deceitfully refers to itself as "Islam".

The Arab (Ishmaelite) penchant for story-telling, euphemistically referred to as the "Islamic tradition" is predicated solely upon myth. But those who have been satanically programmed and trained to see lies as truth and the truth as a lie, as you undoubtedly have, know only to irrationally attack the messenger who is revealing the truth to them.

Doesn't that explain why all you seem to be able to do is sling foul utterances in my direction?

We both know you cannot provide a single reference to the children of Ishmael from the Koran/Quran, nor a single prophecy attributed to Ishmael, nor explain how Ishmael could have been a prophet when God plainly stated that no prophet or warner had ever been sent to the Arabs/Ishmaelites before Muhammad.

For those interested in the truth about Ishmael, please visit the link below:-


Peace be upon you.
What a load of tripe! You need to re-educate yourself before you do your mind irreversible damage.
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,931
I didn’t realise before coming here that there was a narrative going about that the Bible had been woefully corrupted and the Qur’an had been perfectly preserved.

It has been very interesting to cross examine the claims of Biblical corruption and also look in to whether in fact the Qur’an has been unchanged since the time of Muhammad.

Turns out there are numerous Arabic Qur’ans in use throughout the Muslim world that differ in their wording. Please note - not translation but original wording.

This video is a tough watch as the standard approach appears to be to “shout down” contrary views (interesting in and of itself) but the fact remains that there seem to be at least 37 differing Qur’ans in use at present, the most popular being the 1924 Hafs version.

 
Last edited:

A Freeman

Superstar
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
6,725
I didn’t realise before coming here that there was a narrative going about that the Bible had been woefully corrupted and the Qur’an had been perfectly preserved.

It has been very interesting to cross examine the claims of Biblical corruption and also look in to whether in fact the Qur’an has been unchanged since the time of Muhammad.

Turns out there are numerous Arabic Qur’ans in use throughout the Muslim world that differ in their wording. Please note - not translation but original wording.

This video is a tough watch as the standard approach appears to be to “shout down” contrary views (interesting in and of itself) but the fact remains that there seem to be at least 37 differing Qur’ans in use at present, the most popular being the 1922 Hafs version.

Thank-you for sharing this video.

Yes, there are definitely different Arabic versions of the Koran/Quran, that contain different Arabic words, despite the false claim made by most "Muslims" that "there is only one Arabic Quran".

The following excerpt and chart are from Samuel Green's THE DIFFERENT ARABIC VERSIONS OF THE QUR'AN:-
DifferentKorans.png
The only rational explanation for this is that these various Arabic versions of the Koran/Quran are themselves translations of the Koran, from its original language of Syriac (which was the Arabian tongue before, during and several hundred years after the lifetime of Muhammad) into the newly invented language of Arabic.

FACT: The Arabic alphabet is derived from Syriac (Syro-Aramaic).

FACT: Originally, the newly invented language of Arabic didn't contain the diacritical marks/dots to be able to distinguish between certain consonants, which obviously could and would give way to a variety of different meanings (just think of "cat", "cot" & "cut" in the English language, which are obviously very different words with distinctly different meanings, even though all three share the same consonants).

FACT: The very first book published in the newly invented language of Arabic was the Koran/Quran.

What needs to be understood in all of this is that the word "corrupted" does NOT mean the same thing as "altered". Altering a text will leave behind clues that the alteration has been made, whether it be an addition, subtraction or substitution. When a text has been corrupted, it has been damaged beyond repair, rendering it completely unusable.

Because all Scripture (the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the Koran/Quran) has massive built-in redundancy and is "coded", it is impossible to corrupt it. Eventually, the criminal alterations that have taken place are revealed, because the alterations stick out like a sore-thumb.

If there is only One True God, as "Jews", "Christians" and "Muslims" claim to believe, then logically all of God's Message MUST agree with itself. And that is exactly what The One True God has told us in His Book/Scripture of Truth.
 
Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,931
If there is only One True God, as "Jews", "Christians" and "Muslims" claim to believe, then logically all of God's Message MUST agree with itself. And that is exactly what The One True God has told us in His Book/Scripture of Truth.
The various discrepancies between the multiple Arabic versions suggest they are either an echo of an original, or perhaps even a Proto Qur’an…


^Edit - I have questioned Jay on his esteem of the Codex Sinaiticus / Alexandrian texts (in the video) in the comments and would be interested at see if he gets back to me.

The juicy fly in the ointment is the question as to whether the character of God that emerges through the Judeo-Christian tradition is the same as the character of the Islamic God.

If so, you have a synergy and one that is being popularised through the Abraham Accords, the Abrahamic Famiiy House currently being built in the UAE and the Tri-Faith initiative.

If you don’t, you have the makings of the unified religious system based on a false premise, with grave spiritual consequences.
 
Last edited:

A Freeman

Superstar
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
6,725
The various discrepancies between the multiple Arabic versions suggest they are either an echo of an original, or perhaps even a Proto Qur’an…


^Edit - I have questioned Jay on his esteem of the Codex Sinaiticus / Alexandrian texts (in the video) in the comments and would be interested at see if he gets back to me.
As all of the Arabic versions of the Koran/Quran contain numerous Syro-Aramaic words in them, and the Arabic alphabet is derived from Syro-Aramaic, it logically follows that the multiple Arabic versions are derived from the original in Syro-Aramaic.

The juicy fly in the ointment is the question as to whether the character of God that emerges through the Judeo-Christian tradition is the same as the character of the Islamic God.
The Koran (Quran) was sent to CONFIRM the Old Covenant and New Covenant that came before it, as it repeatedly states. That's why it refers its readers in dozens of places back to the Bible, which the Koran plainly states in several places has been guarded against corruption. Is there any description of God found in the Koran that disagrees with the descriptions given in the Bible? Not a single one has been personally found after reading both the Bible and Koran multiple times.

It therefore logically follows that there is ONE God (YHWH or, in English, the "I AM"), as described throughout the Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran. Christ's God (Matt. 27:46, John 5:30, 14:28, 20:17, 1 Cor. 11:3, Rev. 3:12, Sura 3:51, 43:64).

If so, you have a synergy and one that is being popularised through the Abraham Accords, the Abrahamic Famiiy House currently being built in the UAE and the Tri-Faith initiative.
Regardless of what worldly organizations may be popularizing, it can be logically deduced from an unbiased reading the Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran (Quran) that The One and Only True Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent and Self-Existent Spiritual-Being we refer to as "God" is being described throughout all three.

Have you read the Koran in its entirety please Red?

If you don’t, you have the makings of the unified religious system based on a false premise, with grave spiritual consequences.
Men (humans) have historically and repeatedly (without fail) taken the spiritual message contained within Scripture, and twisted it into religious systems, all of which create a barrier in between the Soul (spiritual-Being) and our Creator (God). Religious systems always divide people into various sects/denominations/cults, etc., which logically indicates that Satan created all organized religions to keep people AWAY from God. Divide and conquer strategy creates confusion and conflict, which are satanic trademarks that have NOTHING to do with God (1 Cor. 14:33).

It logically follows that The One and Only True God has only One True and Consistent Message which, when correctly translated in ANY language, is the same throughout all of Scripture (the Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran/Quran). And His Message, when followed, always UNITES true believers.
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,931
As all of the Arabic versions of the Koran/Quran contain numerous Syro-Aramaic words in them, and the Arabic alphabet is derived from Syro-Aramaic, it logically follows that the multiple Arabic versions are derived from the original in Syro-Aramaic.


The Koran (Quran) was sent to CONFIRM the Old Covenant and New Covenant that came before it, as it repeatedly states. That's why it refers its readers in dozens of places back to the Bible, which the Koran plainly states in several places has been guarded against corruption. Is there any description of God found in the Koran that disagrees with the descriptions given in the Bible? Not a single one has been personally found after reading both the Bible and Koran multiple times.

It therefore logically follows that there is ONE God (YHWH or, in English, the "I AM"), as described throughout the Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran. Christ's God (Matt. 27:46, John 5:30, 14:28, 20:17, 1 Cor. 11:3, Rev. 3:12, Sura 3:51, 43:64).


Regardless of what worldly organizations may be popularizing, it can be logically deduced from an unbiased reading the Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran (Quran) that The One and Only True Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent and Self-Existent Spiritual-Being we refer to as "God" is being described throughout all three.

Have you read the Koran in its entirety please Red?


Men (humans) have historically and repeatedly (without fail) taken the spiritual message contained within Scripture, and twisted it into religious systems, all of which create a barrier in between the Soul (spiritual-Being) and our Creator (God). Religious systems always divide people into various sects/denominations/cults, etc., which logically indicates that Satan created all organized religions to keep people AWAY from God. Divide and conquer strategy creates confusion and conflict, which are satanic trademarks that have NOTHING to do with God (1 Cor. 14:33).

It logically follows that The One and Only True God has only One True and Consistent Message which, when correctly translated in ANY language, is the same throughout all of Scripture (the Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran/Quran). And His Message, when followed, always UNITES true believers.
I understand what you want to say, and how you would like things to be. I really do.

But - it doesn’t correspond to reality.

The Qur’an makes a very specific claim…

The various translations of the Quran, while differing on how Jesus was saved, all state that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified: Sahih International: And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them.


That claim is antithetical to the heart of the Gospel as well as all the OT foreshadowing of Jesus as the perfect unblemished sacrifice.

How do you reconcile such a clear contradiction and claim that all three accounts are inspired?
 

A Freeman

Superstar
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
6,725
I understand what you want to say, and how you would like things to be. I really do.

But - it doesn’t correspond to reality.

The Qur’an makes a very specific claim…

The various translations of the Quran, while differing on how Jesus was saved, all state that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified: Sahih International: And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them.


That claim is antithetical to the heart of the Gospel as well as all the OT foreshadowing of Jesus as the perfect unblemished sacrifice.

How do you reconcile such a clear contradiction and claim that all three accounts are inspired?
Thank-you, but you appear to be missing the point, and with it the true reality.

You are doing exactly as both the "Christians" and the "Muslims" have been taught to do by their spiritually blind leaders, priests, pastors, imams, etc., instead of leaving them alone as Christ Commands (Matt. 15:14).

This is what Christ said, through the mouth of Jesus, about the limited power of humans to murder the mortal human body, with God ALONE having the UNLIMITED power to kill both the mortal human body and the otherwise immortal Soul (spiritual-Being).

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, BUT ARE NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell-fire.

Sura 4:157 is ONE verse which APPEARS to be claiming the crucifixion of Jesus didn't happen. But that is NOT what it actually says, if it is correctly understood. It very plainly states in most translations (and in the what is commonly referred to as the "original Arabic") that the ("Jews") falsely boasted/claimed that they killed THE IMMORTAL SOUL WE REFER TO AS THE MESSIAH/CHRIST, which is, according to Christ, IMPOSSIBLE.

When it says in the Koran The Messiah, Son of Mary, it is exactly the same as when it says Christ-Jesus in the Bible. Christ is The Messiah (Son of God) and Jesus was the Son of Mary (Son of Man).

So what you are claiming to be an irreconcilable contradiction is actually not irreconcilable or a contradiction, because it's impossible for the "Jews" or the Romans to have killed the IMMORTAL Christ (Son of God).

It was the mortal human Jesus that was crucified, died, was buried and then raised by God 3 days and 3 nights later, exactly as the very next verse (Sura 4:158) CONFIRMS.

Sura 4:158. Nay, GOD RAISED HIM UP UNTO HIMSELF and God is Exalted in Power, and in Wisdom;-

Any so-called Muslim (or "Christian") who claims differently are full of doubts, with no certain Knowledge, but only conjecture to follow. How can we be absolutely certain that what's been shared above is true?

We have confirmation of the crucifixion and resurrection elsewhere in the Koran/Quran:-

Sura 6:122. Can he who was dead (Jesus – Matt. 27:50-54, Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:44-47, John 19:30-42) to whom We gave life (Matt. 28:5-10, Mark 16:6-8, Luke 24, John 20), and a Light (John 3:19-21, John 8:3) with which he (Christ) walks amongst men, be like him who is in the depths of darkness (Lucifer), from which he can never come out? Thus to those without Faith their own deeds seem pleasing (Deut. 4:28, Matt. 6:5).

Who are those without Faith according to the Koran/Quran? Those who don't believe and follow Jesus, Whom God raised (resurrected) from the dead.

Sura 3:55. Behold! GOD SAID: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to The Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

We even have it straight from the mouth of Jesus in the Koran that He most assuredly did die BEFORE God raised Jesus from the dead.

Sura 19:33-34
19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, THE DAY THAT I DIE, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"
19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (IT IS) A STATEMENT OF TRUTH, about which they (vainly) dispute.

Further, the Koran tells us repeatedly that it was sent to CONFIRM The Law AND THE GOSPEL. It's impossible to confirm something while contradicting it (see: Sura 2:97-98, 3:1-3, 4:47, 5:51, 6:92-94, 6:153-157, 10:37, 12:111, 22:52, 35:31, 46:12, 61:6-7).

Example:-

Sura 5:51. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety (Surah 32:23): so judge between them by what "I AM" hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have We prescribed The Law and The Open Way (John 14:6). If "I AM" had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His Plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to "I AM"; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters about which ye dispute;

And finally, the Koran/Quran repeatedly tells its readers they MUST read The Law/Old Covenant and The Gospel/New Covenant and to NOT be in doubt of it reaching them (see Sura 2:53, 2:87-93, 3:1-3, 3:48-50, 4:54, 5:46-50, 6:91-92, 6:154-157, 7:157-158, 9:111, 11:17, 15:9-10, 17:2-4, 21:48, 23:20, 23:49, 25:35, 28:1-3, 32:23, 35:25-32, 37:117, 40:53, 40:70, 41:45, 42:14-17, 45:16, 46:12, 46:30, 48:29, 53:36-47, 57:25-29, 61:6).

Example (please note well the Unlettered Prophet/Messenger of God is Christ):-

Sura 7:157-158
7:157. "Those who follow The Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures - the Bible),- in The Law (Torah) and the Gospel (New Testament - Covenant);- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); he releases them from their heavy burdens (Matthew 23:1-4) and from the yokes that are upon them (Matt. 11:28-30). So it is those who believe him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper (King of kings' Bible - John 8:3, KJV John 8:12)."
7:158. Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of "I AM", to Whom belongeth the Dominion of the heavens and the Earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in "I AM" and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet (John 7:15-19), who believeth "I AM" and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided (by "The Way" - John 14:6)."

So we can either choose to believe in the very obvious MISUNDERSTANDING of one single verse

...or...

we can choose to believe dozens and dozens and dozens of verses throughout the Old Covenant, New Covenant and Koran/Quran, which prophesy, record and confirm (respectively) the crucifixion and resurrection of JESUS.

God is NOT the author of confusion; Satan is (1 Cor. 14:33).

https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=157
(Note well that Christ is again identified as "The Messenger of God"):

Sahih International: And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Pickthall: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it APPEARED so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to APPEAR to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Shakir: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it APPEARED to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Muhammad Sarwar: and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed (the question of whether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus.

Mohsin Khan: And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]:

Arberry: and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God' -- yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him; they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they slew him not of a certainty -- no indeed;


The above are based on what is considered the "original" Arabic which, as you are starting to see, isn't actually the true original, which was written in Syriac (Syro-Aramaic), the same language that Jesus spoke and wrote.

From: https://www.hope-of-israel.org/h&a.html

Eusebius and the Messiah
What language did the Messiah use in his daily intercourse with his followers and those who came in contact with him? The Greek Bishop Eusebius (263 -- 339 A.D.), often referred to as the “Father of Ecclesiastical History,” offers a fascinating insight –
Thus it happened that when King Abgar, the brilliantly successful monarch of the peoples of Mesopotamia, who was dying from a terrible physical disorder which no human power could heal, heard continual mention of the name of Jesus and unanimous tribute to His miracles, he sent a humble request to Him BY A LETTER CARRIER, begging for relief from his disease. Jesus did not immediately accede to his request, but honoured him WITH A PERSONAL LETTER, promising to send one of His disciples to cure his disease, and at the same time to bring salvation to him and all his kin...
Written evidence of these things is available, taken from the Record Office at Edessa, at that time the royal capital. In the public documents there, embracing early history and also the events of Abgar’s time, this record is found preserved from then till now; and the most satisfactory course is to listen to the actual letters, which I have extracted from the archives and translated word for word FROM THE SYRIAC as follows: (The History of the Church. Dorset Press: 1984, pp. 65-66).
Eusebius goes on to show a copy of a letter written by Abgar the Toparch to the Messiah and delivered to him at Jerusalem by the courier Ananias; and then the Messiah’s reply to Abgar, delivered by the courier Ananias -- both translated from the original Syriac by Eusebius. Now “Syriac” is simply another term for Aramaic; so this passage clearly shows that the Messiah was familiar with -- and carried out his daily tasks -- in the Aramaic language.

Eusebius goes on to say (page 67) that “To these letters is subjoined the following IN SYRIAC [ARAMAIC]:” Then, on page 70 of his work, he concludes by saying, “Here we may leave for the present this valuable document [the letters to and from the Messiah], LITERALLY TRANSLATED FROM SYRIAC [ARAMAIC].”
 
Joined
Oct 31, 2021
Messages
629
I understand what you want to say, and how you would like things to be. I really do.

But - it doesn’t correspond to reality.

The Qur’an makes a very specific claim…

The various translations of the Quran, while differing on how Jesus was saved, all state that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified: Sahih International: And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them.


That claim is antithetical to the heart of the Gospel as well as all the OT foreshadowing of Jesus as the perfect unblemished sacrifice.

How do you reconcile such a clear contradiction and claim that all three accounts are inspired?

I would like to keep it in another way, Sire.. hope to be able to turn a few thinking gears!


How do you think, infact what exactly do you think goes in a wee child's head/mind (who actually is in possession of an absolutely clean slate brain/mind with regards to the Life/Matrix and Earthly affairs) when for the first ever time in his/her life this child sees the symbol of Peace, Love, & Hope is actually nailed on a wooden cross (probably bleeding, appearing helpless, et. al.).

Think rationally, and deduce. Does what the child see would automatically/inherently bring optimism or pessimism in him/her? (Forget what he/she is being verbally told/taught. But the sight itself.. what that sight of the symbol of Peace Love and Hope being nailed on a cross, helpless; would bring to a child's psyche 'internally'?) One would easily deduce, either major bouts of doubt or pessimism!


What exactly is optimistic here when one clean-slate holder wee child is told that the symbol of Peace Love and Hope is actually nailed to a wood and is made to wear a crown full of thorns and blood oozing out everywhere!!?

I digress!
 

TempestOfTempo

Superstar
Joined
Jan 29, 2018
Messages
8,076
The various discrepancies between the multiple Arabic versions suggest they are either an echo of an original, or perhaps even a Proto Qur’an…


^Edit - I have questioned Jay on his esteem of the Codex Sinaiticus / Alexandrian texts (in the video) in the comments and would be interested at see if he gets back to me.

The juicy fly in the ointment is the question as to whether the character of God that emerges through the Judeo-Christian tradition is the same as the character of the Islamic God.

If so, you have a synergy and one that is being popularised through the Abraham Accords, the Abrahamic Famiiy House currently being built in the UAE and the Tri-Faith initiative.

If you don’t, you have the makings of the unified religious system based on a false premise, with grave spiritual consequences.
"If so, you have a synergy and one that is being popularised through the Abraham Accords, the Abrahamic Famiiy House currently being built in the UAE and the Tri-Faith initiative."
Please expound on the Tri-Faith initiative... any others with serious info or perspective on the initiative are welcome as well...
 
Top