Question for Muslims about the defense of their faith

elsbet

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And why is this permitted? I would presume that there is some justification for this. Like I said, I consider this a mild threat and a sign of poor communication. What is someone supposed to do, fear your insults so much that they never say anything negative about Muhammad again? Is there permission to escalate this permission to insult someon in return if a person decides to ignore this mild threat and continues to make comments you would consider insulting.

According to the quote that was (intentionally?) left un-cited*--
they're obligated to report you to the proper authorities, so you can be executed. If there are no authorities, then they are obligated to take care of it.

This is according to the interpreter of the verse, mind you-- not the actual Quran.. so who knows. I've heard 'ministers' whose interpretations were so close to being in line with scripture but for one little thing (like making people lose their faith in the sufficiency and the reality of Grace by implying that they had been too bad, too evil, etc)-- and people believe them. But it's really just a mind****-- that is, they're just screwing with their heads. It's evil.

* :rolleyes: You knew someone would look it up, so I consider it passive-aggressive, at best-- letting someone else reveal what you won't quote, @DesertRose -- never let it be said that you aren't participating.




 

rainerann

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According to the quote that was (intentionally?) left un-cited*-- they're obligated to report you to the proper authorities, so you can be executed. If there are no authorities, then they are obligated to take care of it.

This is according to the interpreter of the verse, mind you-- not the actual Quran.. so who knows. I've heard 'ministers' whose interpretations were so close to being in line with scripture but for one little thing (like making people lose their faith in the sufficiency and the reality of Grace by implying that they had been too bad, too evil, etc)-- and people believe them. But it's really just a mind****-- that is, they're just screwing with their heads. It's evil.

* :rolleyes: You knew someone would look it up, so I consider it passive-aggressive, at best-- letting someone else reveal what you won't quote, @DesertRose -- never let it be said that you aren't participating.



Are you talking about the response at this site https://islamqa.info/en/14305? I am pretty sure someone is going to say that this isn't a valid Islamic reference at some point. However, it does seem to give a rational response to the question.

Basically, the article introduces the subject by saying that for a Muslim to denounce the prophet is the same as denouncing his faith and he should be executed. Then, it goes on to describe how this applies to non Muslims.

"If the person who defames him is a non-Muslim living under a treaty with the Muslim state, then this is a violation of the treaty and he must be executed, but that should be left to the authorities. If a Muslim hears a Christian or anyone else defaming the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) he has to denounce him in strong terms. It is permissible to insult that person because he is the one who started it. How can we not stand up the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)? It is also obligatory to report him to the authorities who can carry out the punishment on him. If there is no one who can carry out the hadd punishment of Allaah and stand up for the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) then the Muslim has to do whatever he can, so long as that will not lead to further mischief and harm against other people. "

It is important to note that the author is clear in saying that execution for something like this is only applied in a Muslim state. Therefore, in a non Muslim state, this same form of punishment cannot be applied. This is a logical conclusion. So it is interesting that more of the Muslims aren't so forthcoming about the way things would be different within a Muslim state.

So the final part I have bolded is how this subject applies in non Muslim state where there is not an authority present who will enforce a punishment for speaking against the prophet. So basically, by any means necessary, engage in order to prevent insults to Muhammad.

Then, the verse that is mentioned in this thread is mentioned and the advice that is given is that it does not apply when the prophet is insulted first. This would seem logical according to the teaching of eye for eye. It would be an application of this principle. So I don't really see whereas anyone can say that this site is giving inaccurate information. It seems to line up very well with what the Quran teaches.

"And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allaah, lest they insult Allaah wrongfully without knowledge”

[al-An’aam 6:108],

this does not apply in cases where they defame Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) first. Rather what is meant is that it is forbidden to insult the gods of the mushrikeen first, lest they insult Allaah out of ignorance and enmity on their part. But if they insult Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) first, then we must respond and punish them so as deter them from their kufr and enmity. If we leave the kuffaar and atheists to say whatever they want without denouncing it or punishing them, great mischief will result, which is something that these kuffaar love."
 

DesertRose

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Elsbet the citation was not intentionally left out Why would you think that?(it was in quotes)
I wasn't going to plug the whole page for a few sentences I am not writing an academic essay.
Look at you trying to act as if you are on to something. That is fun to behold.....:)

The response I gave to Lisa was not to a question about our belief system nor about the prophet but it was a direct insult to him:
She wrote this:
and He is a second rate prophet in the quran...that’s hardly perfect harmony...
and I responded according although I go out of my way not to insult people in general trolls or not....;)

It is interesting how some are trying to legitimize one insult and not the other.
Anyway we are on this site to answer legitimate questions not stuff that looks like twisted mental gymnastics or unfair thoughts.
Noticed no one is responding as to why there are such double standards about who can be insulted in the west.
Food for the serious minded I guess.

G'night.
 
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elsbet

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Elsbet the citation was not intentionally left out Why would you think that?
I wasn't going to plug the whole page for one sentence I am not writing an academic essay.
Look at you trying to act as if you are on to something. That is fun to behold.....:)

The response I gave to Lisa ..
lol
No, no -- I was talking about your response to @Thunderian. You know that. :p

This, which you put in quotation marks, but failed to cite:

"If a Muslim hears a Christian or anyone else defaming the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) he has to denounce him in strong terms. It is permissible to insult that person because he is the one who started it. How can we not stand up the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)?"

Found, here:
https://islamqa.info/en/14305

You cite everything-- the majority of your posts are quotes, so it stands to reason. So even if the guy is a barbarian, he still deserves to be cited properly.. to do otherwise is just crass.
 
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Taking offense and acting violently against it are two different things.


Say, I walked into the most violent neighborhood in the US, upto a bunch of the most violent guys...and began cursing them.
Suppose I get shot and die?
Are people going to condemn them or condemn me for being so stupid?
If you offend muslims, you offend millions and it only takes 1 guy to react violently to bring up a debate about how 'it's wronggg'.

As for cursing the one who curses our prophet. I would rather prove his perceptions wrong than right but im only human.
 

elsbet

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Taking offense and acting violently against it are two different things.


Say, I walked into the most violent neighborhood in the US, upto a bunch of the most violent guys...and began cursing them.
Suppose I get shot and die?
Are people going to condemn them or condemn me for being so stupid?
If you offend muslims, you offend millions and it only takes 1 guy to react violently to bring up a debate about how 'it's wronggg'.

As for cursing the one who curses our prophet. I would rather prove his perceptions wrong than right but im only human.
As he was, yes.
So your point is don't screw around with violent people.. hm. What an unfortunate conclusion to this thread.
 
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As he was, yes.
So your point is don't screw around with violent people.. hm. What an unfortunate conclusion to this thread.
If you offend muslims, you offend millions and it only takes 1 guy to react violently to bring up a debate about how 'it's wronggg'.

Look it's the same anywhere, you piss off the wrong man, all hell breaks loose
if i mocked Jesus in certain parts of the US i would get shot dead, no question about it.
 

Daciple

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[al-An‘aam 6:108]”.
"If a Muslim hears a Christian or anyone else defaming the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) he has to denounce him in strong terms. It is permissible to insult that person because he is the one who started it. How can we not stand up the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)?"

Man if this doesnt sum up the absolute and total stark contrast between the god of Islam and the God of Christianity, I dont know what does to be honest. Lets keep quoting from the Muslims here for a moment, better yet the full quote and context of the above snippet from a Muslim:

"If the person who defames him is a non-Muslim living under a treaty with the Muslim state, then this is a violation of the treaty and he must be executed, but that should be left to the authorities. If a Muslim hears a Christian or anyone else defaming the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) he has to denounce him in strong terms. It is permissible to insult that person because he is the one who started it. How can we not stand up the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)? It is also obligatory to report him to the authorities who can carry out the punishment on him. If there is no one who can carry out the hadd punishment of Allaah and stand up for the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) then the Muslim has to do whatever he can, so long as that will not lead to further mischief and harm against other people. "
What is that followed by?

[al-An’aam 6:108],

this does not apply in cases where they defame Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) first. Rather what is meant is that it is forbidden to insult the gods of the mushrikeen first, lest they insult Allaah out of ignorance and enmity on their part. But if they insult Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) first, then we must respond and punish them so as deter them from their kufr and enmity. If we leave the kuffaar and atheists to say whatever they want without denouncing it or punishing them, great mischief will result, which is something that these kuffaar love."
As a response to those asking if this is True and wow how can this be True in Islam we have AS justifying literal violence if it ends up happening if one "insults" Islam or the Prophet:

Taking offense and acting violently against it are two different things.


Say, I walked into the most violent neighborhood in the US, upto a bunch of the most violent guys...and began cursing them.
Suppose I get shot and die?
Are people going to condemn them or condemn me for being so stupid?
If you offend muslims, you offend millions and it only takes 1 guy to react violently to bring up a debate about how 'it's wronggg'.
This is amazing to me that ANYONE would justify VIOLENCE because someone disagrees even VENOMOUSLY with them, even when it comes to the most sincere believe one can hold. The reactions, the justifications I see from Muslims, and what appears to be verses from their Holy Text (until they deem it not correct cuz whatever) all support ACTIONS from Insults even to violence and murder if one speaks anything that can be considered by ANY MUSLIM an Insult to their Faith.

However this is a perfect example of how there is absolutely no possibly way that the God and Messiah of Christainity is the same god and prophet (Isa) as in Islam. In Islam it is clearly mandated to respond back to insults with like power and action, even possibly more so in order to prevent and stop any other insults from taking place against the Faith or Religious Figures. Let us contrast that with what Jesus, the Messiah of Christianity states in these situations:

Matt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

The god of Islam demands that you personally insult and attack those who speak evil of their god, Jesus Christ says the total opposite. How are we as Christians to respond when people speak evil of us or our Faith, treat us evil because of our Faith? We are to LOVE OUR ENEMIES, to offer them GOOD, to BLESS them, to PRAY for them!!! Indeed we are to defend our Faith but how so?

1 Peter 3:13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

We are to defend our Faith to every man that asks us the reason for our Hope!! If we are spoken about in an Evil manner, we are not to repay them evil, instead we are to speak about the Hope we have that has been given us in Christ and thus they may be ashamed because we are falsely accused, for we should speak of the good conversation of Jesus!!! There is no where in the New Testament that Christians are called to incite violence, to incite insults to others when our Faith, or even our PERSON is attacked due to our Faith. Instead we are commanded specifically NOT to take vengeance into our own hands and then we are commanded to Pray, do Good, Bless, Love and preach to them the HOPE we have in Christ!!!!

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I may fail in many ways but I can tell you that if you insult my Faith, if you insult my God, if you insult my Jesus, I have no place to insult you, I shouldnt. Have I said things that I shouldnt have, yes I am sure I have, but I ought not to whatsoever and for that I do apologize to those whom I have. I have no right to insult your person if you insult my Faith, I definitely have absolutely no room whatsoever to act violently towards you in ANY manner and absolutely NO ONE should ever act violently towards you no matter what awful and disgraceful thing you may say about my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, about my God or about my person. Instead, if you are insulting me, my Faith and the Lord Jesus Christ, what I need to do is preach to you the Gospel, give to you why it is that I have my Hope grounded firmly in Him. I need to Pray for you, to offer ways to Bless you, to do Good to you, and to Love you!!! I must leave space for God to seek His vengeance, never am I the reckoning of Wrath upon others, no I need to be the Cup of Grace and Mercy and pour it upon you in the same manner His Grace and Mercy was poured out upon me!!

There is a clear distinction between the god of Islam in this aspect and the One True God as found in The Bible and through Christ, the god of Islam mandates his followers to seek vengeance for his name, the One True God as found in the Bible and through Christ mandates to Love our Enemies and offer them the same Grace and Mercy He offered us, because at one point we were His Enemy and instead of regining down His Wrath like we deserved, He found it in His Heart to give us Grace, Mercy, Life, Peace and an Eternal Hope that we MUST share with others, because it is so incredibly Good!!! I thank the Lord that He is a God of Mercy and not as the god of Islam, bent on wrath!!! Praise His Name, Thank you Jesus, you are so Good to Me!!!! If you dont know Him, I hope you open your heart to what He wants to speak to you, that He wants to offer you Love and Mercy, that in Him there is No Condemnation and He wants to give to you a Hope that will allow you to take any insult, any violence done to you and desire to show them Love, to Pray for them, to want to Bless them!!!

Just think for one second how Good would something have to be, that would affect you so profoundly, that it would cause you to want to go from desiring to seek vengeance upon others who harm and insult you, to desiring to want to show them Good, Love them, Pray for them, and tell them all about that Goodness and Hope even if it may cost you your life? It would have to be something indescribably Good for you to be willing and desire to do such a thing wouldnt it? Well I tell you today that that Goodness is right here waiting for you if you want it, all you have to do is claim it by simply believing that Jesus has offered it all to you, free of charge!!! You can be changed right now, just call on the One True God, call on Jesus and be converted and have that Hope be put deep in your soul a Hope that you cant wait to Proclaim!!!! Praise the Lord I pray someone begins to search out for that hope tonight!!! If there is anything I can do to help you in your search for that Hope let me know, I love you, even if you have spent years belittling me and mocking me, may my God Bless you beyond your wildest dreams, I know He will once you accept Him!!!!
 
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@Daciple
how the hell did I just justify violence? i just literally said 'it only takes one violent person to react'
meaning if I personally insulted a big bunch of christians in certain parts of murica, for example...i would be an idiot NOT to expect a violent reaction. would I do it anyway JUST to get a reaction so i can point the finger and say 'look at these violent christians'?

inb4 "but Jesus is always mocked and we don't react"...is it as antagonising if it's the south park creators who are normal yanks? what if it was a muslim guy with the textbook muslamic appearance, fannying around in the arse end of some hick town making fun of christians? guarantee that would be one dead muslim.

when you instigate people, people are not angels, we have flaws, we can react..but I wouldn't think it's a smart idea to attack a person violently for hating on islam, not unless that person was physically threatening and literally states his wish to see me/us dead.
 
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@Daciple

The verse the other poster brought up was

6:108
And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah, lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.


I do not understand (and didnt read) what she wrote/quoted...but the verse is pretty on point.
nowhere here does it say "but it's okay to insult them personally, just not whatever they invoke as their 'god'"

your view of justice and punishment is flawed anyway

Romans 13
3 Obey the rulers who have authority over you. Only God can give authority to anyone, and he puts these rulers in their places of power. 2 People who oppose the authorities are opposing what God has done, and they will be punished. 3 Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4 After all, they are God’s servants, and it is their duty to help you.

If you do something wrong, you ought to be afraid, because these rulers have the right to punish you. They are God’s servants who punish criminals to show how angry God is. 5 But you should obey the rulers because you know it is the right thing to do, and not just because of God’s anger.


6 You must also pay your taxes. The authorities are God’s servants, and it is their duty to take care of these matters. 7 Pay all that you owe, whether it is taxes and fees or respect and honor.


how do you suppose this stands in contrast with what @DesertRose was saying aswell as your own view?

So if an islamic 'system' decided to punish christians for blasphemy...that would not be the will of God by extension?
Paul, along with other apostles, received the death penalty in the end.
I don't think that was just, but nonetheless a real christian would accept their fate because they have an understanding of God's Immanence in all things, meaning even if someone slaps them, they would perceive it as as God's own act.
 

Karlysymon

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I think it should have been fair that all verses talking about defamation/insults should have been in plural...referring to all prophets from the dawn of time. But if all there is, is this
"If a Muslim hears a
Christian or anyone else
defaming the Prophet
(peace and blessings of
Allaah be upon him)

And the rest about other prophets has to implied, to an outsider, it kinda makes it all about him(Muhammad).
 

elsbet

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If you offend muslims, you offend millions and it only takes 1 guy to react violently to bring up a debate about how 'it's wronggg'.

Look it's the same anywhere, you piss off the wrong man, all hell breaks loose
if i mocked Jesus in certain parts of the US i would get shot dead, no question about it.
And they would be arrested for murder because it is against the law.

Look-- you compared Muslims to
".. the most violent neighborhood in the US.. the most violent guys..."-- not me. Tbh, I'm not sure what to make of that, esp with dr saying it's an obligation, supported by doctrine. :confused: No one has shown that (doctrine), outside one blogger's interpretation.
 

SpektaCoolAir

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Why do you feel the need to jump right into insulting me? Why not just take the question seriously and answer it?
hasbari? insult? :D

how so? :D

you have shown to be a hasbarah agent more than once so how is this an insult?

it's just who you are - nothing more - nothing less!

accept who you are - we have also. :D


Your mom may need you to defend her, but what makes you believe Allah does?
I don't disagree that when someone attacks your beloved ones a strong response is definitely on the table, but again I wonder why you won't let Allah take care of business himself, as he sees fit. Is there a verse or hadith that addresses this subject at all? I am asking in all respectful seriousness. I really want to know what the authority for action in defense of Islam is. Under what circumstances are Muslims called to go to the defense of the Creator?
1. my mother doesn't need defense BUT i still do it because that's common sense!

if you don't consider this to be so with somebody you love - then it (your love) ain't honest/true/ thus has defects.

2. same goes for The Creator!

if you claim to love somebody or something - it seems highly hypocritical if you don't get into defending that one if attacked in any kind of way by anybody!

nobody needs instructions for this cause it's (again) common sense!


I know this is meant to be another insult, but I choose to believe you misunderstand the issue.
i don't know what was the "insulting part" there - but there was none intended.
sometimes things just mean what they mean without any "hidden message".


Our human nature is what separates us from God.
funny coming from somebody who believes in & worships a "god" that came as a human (doing all the human stuff).

anyways that was not my point when stating that your way of life ignores human nature.

my point is:
The Creator knows His creation - so He would give instructions that are possible for everyone to act upon (act out) not only a few (that would be unfair).


so this leads us to your next statement

The Bible doesn't ignore that. It gives us instructions for overcoming it
which proves my point.

Allah - The All-Wise & Exalted - tells us to refrain from insults - but when we are getting insulted we can defend ourselves.

Allah - The Utterly Just - says in the Qur'an (interpretation of the meaning):
And whoever avenges himself after having been wronged - those have not upon them any cause (for blame). (Qur'an - 42:41)

this is totally doable by anybody!


I wish a Muslim who knew their faith would peacefully answer my questions about what they believe.
well they have - but you refuse to "see" or accept it.


This is another of the great differences between Christianity and Islam. Christians are to be witnesses for Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us we should always be ready and willing to explain our faith to others. I don't find this to be the case with Muslims.

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. (Qur'an - 16:125 - interpretation of the meaning)
 
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And they would be arrested for murder because it is against the law.

Look-- you compared Muslims to
".. the most violent neighborhood in the US.. the most violent guys..."-- not me. Tbh, I'm not sure what to make of that, esp with dr saying it's an obligation, supported by doctrine. :confused: No one has shown that (doctrine), outside one blogger's interpretation.

It does not matter that it is against the law. People break the law, people murder for small slights in this world. That reality means you should always tread lightly and not just assume because you have 'freedom of expression' that you should seek to provoke people. It only takes one person on the wrong day to react.


As for the 'doctrine', that was not a doctrine but the opinion of one man Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Barraak
The reason @Daciple thinks im not a muslim or that other muslims do not regard me as a muslim is actually because I called out DR for quoting material from the website in question, because it is a salafi/wahabi website and they are........nutcases imho who regularly question another muslim's beliefs if they are not in agreement with their own. They are people condemned in our religion precisely because of their takfiri nature (that is, they are very quick to denounce another person as a 'kafir' and therefore 'he needs to be killed'..


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul-Rahman_al-Barrak
lmaoooo reading that was hilarious. That's like the textbook idea i have of an extreme salafi.

The fatwa states, "Whoever allows this mixing ... allows forbidden things, and whoever allows them is a kafir and this means defection from Islam ... Either he retracts or he must be killed ... because he disavows and does not observe the Sharia."

he was even praised by osama bin laden.
wow.
 

SpektaCoolAir

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I think it should have been fair that all verses talking about defamation/insults should have been in plural...referring to all prophets from the dawn of time. But if all there is, is this
"If a Muslim hears a
Christian or anyone else
defaming the Prophet
(peace and blessings of
Allaah be upon him)

And the rest about other prophets has to implied, to an outsider, it kinda makes it all about him(Muhammad).
well - if the insults are going towards a particular prophet - then of course we defend that particular one (so no need to bring up the others) - but since the insults are most of the time directed towards muhammad (may the peace & blessings of Allah be upon him) we mention him only.

Say, "We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and all the prophets by their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we devote ourselves to Him." (Qur'an - 2:136 - interpretation of the meaning)


On the authority of Abu Sa’eed al-Khudree (may Allah be pleased with him) who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say, “Whosoever of you sees an evil, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then [let him change it] with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart — and that is the weakest of faith.” [Muslim]
 
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If you offend muslims, you offend millions and it only takes 1 guy to react violently to bring up a debate about how 'it's wronggg'.

Look it's the same anywhere, you piss off the wrong man, all hell breaks loose
if i mocked Jesus in certain parts of the US i would get shot dead, no question about it.
One of the absolute worst aspects of religion is how often it is used as an excuse for childish outbursts
 

Kung Fu

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Just because some morons decide to go crazy because of some words is their problem and has nothing to do with Islam. Use your brain folks it doesn't take a genius to know that.
 
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One of the absolute worst aspects of religion is how often it is used as an excuse for childish outbursts
You're spot on man. Religion is the cause of all our problems. Take away religion and us people will love each other unconditionally and never ever fight.
 
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