The Man of Sin at the Rapture

[TokiEl]

How do you read this passage ?



2 Thess 2 1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.

9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, 12in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.



Will the rapture happen before or after the Man of Sin is revealed ?

 

[floss]

The man of sin and apostasy are prerequisite of the rapture.

Man of Sin = Trump
Apostasy = Christians fall away from the faith to trust in the man Trump

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@TokiEl

I think the key to the timing lies in the answer to the question of who is restraining at present..

6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.

The Thessalonians clearly knew what was restraining evil in the world. Do we?

 

[SnowFall]

I’m Catholic and we don’t believe in the rapture full stop!

 

[TokiEl]

The man of sin and apostasy are prerequisite of the rapture.

Why you say so ?

Red Sky thinks the rapture is before the Man of Sin... so what makes you think it is not ?

 

[floss]

Why you say so ?

Red Sky thinks the rapture is before the Man of Sin... so what makes you think it is not ?

“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him [rapture], that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day[2nd coming & rapture] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Sorry have to requote this scripture in KJV because I think it's clearer. This verse is undeniable that the rapture won't happen until the apostasy and man of sin revealed. "That day" referred to verse above which is the coming of our Lord Jesus and the "gathering together" (rapture). So "that day" (rapture) will not come until there come a falling away and the man of sin was revealed. There isn't any other man beside Trump whom Christians flooded to almost as a savior. Christians even proclaim he is chosen by God. So the man of sin revealed, apostasy are happening and the 1st seal opened, I believe we are very close.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

This verse is undeniable that the rapture won't happen until the apostasy and man of sin revealed.

The fly in the ointment here is that “apostasy” in the English denotes both a “falling away [from faith]” and a “departure”. Paul uses the word “apostasia” in both contexts in various letters.

The context of the passage normally illustrates which meaning is the correct one.

Imagine if the KJV translators had hit upon the alternative word:

“for that day shall not come, except there come a departure first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…”​

 

[floss]

The fly in the ointment here is that “apostasy” in the English denotes both a “falling away [from faith]” and a “departure”. Paul uses the word “apostasia” in both contexts in various letters.

The context of the passage normally illustrates which meaning is the correct one.

Imagine if the KJV translators had hit upon the alternative word:

“for that day shall not come, except there come a departure first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…”​

If apostasia here truly mean the rapture then the verse doesn't make sense because "that day" was referred to the rapture as well. Essentially making this verse redundant...

“for "THE RAPTURE" shall not come, except there come a "RAPTURE" first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…”

Either way, I believe we will both experiences the rapture "correctly" based on which ever view we had. Both view will "appeared" to be correct when it's happening. Since I believe the man of sin and apostasy are being revealed now (some see it some don't), when the rapture come it will appeared like it's pre-trib. The Lord can put this to rest while we meet Him in the air.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

If apostasia here truly mean the rapture then the verse doesn't make sense because "that day" was referred to the rapture as well. Essentially making this verse redundant...

“for "THE RAPTURE" shall not come, except there come a "RAPTURE" first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…”

Either way, I believe we will both experiences the rapture "correctly" based on which ever view we had. Both view will "appeared" to be correct when it's happening. Since I believe the man of sin and apostasy are being revealed now (some see it some don't), when the rapture come it will appeared like it's pre-trib. The Lord can put this to rest while we meet Him in the air.

Just to say that “the Day of the Lord” is frequently used to refer to the whole Tribulation period.

What is the day of the Lord? | GotQuestions.org

What is the day of the Lord? Is the day of the Lord a specific event or a period of time?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[TokiEl]

What does the word apostasy mean ?


646. apostasia

Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.

HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."



apostasy noun

apos·ta·sy | \ ə-ˈpä-stə-sē \
plural apostasies
Definition of apostasy
1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2: abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION




So apostasy means falling away from faith, departure from doctrine, rebellion against religion etc etc... but for the sake of argument let's imagine for a moment that Paul ment apostasy as in departure of the body aka rapture.



Now concerning the rapture, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for the rapture at the Day of the Lord will not come until the rapture occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.



As Floss observed... this doesn't make any sense.

And rightly so for apostasy has never ment departure of body aka rapture.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

What does the word apostasy mean ?


646. apostasia

Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.

HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."



apostasy noun

apos·ta·sy | \ ə-ˈpä-stə-sē \
plural apostasies
Definition of apostasy
1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2: abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION




So apostasy means falling away from faith, departure from doctrine, rebellion against religion etc etc... but for the sake of argument let's imagine for a moment that Paul ment apostasy as in departure of the body aka rapture.



Now concerning the rapture, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for the rapture at the Day of the Lord will not come until the rapture occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.



As Floss observed... this doesn't make any sense.

And rightly so for apostasy has never ment departure of body aka rapture.

I am glad my departure at the rapture is not based on my ability to make you agree with me @TokiEl

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

p.s. This topic is given a concise but thorough treatment in the book:

The Falling Away: Spiritual Departure of... by Woods, Andy

Buy The Falling Away: Spiritual Departure of Physical Rapture?: A Second Look at 2 Thessalonians 2:3 by Woods, Andy (ISBN: 9781945774201) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[TokiEl]

I am glad my departure at the rapture is not based on my ability to make you agree with me @TokiEl

You changed the meaning of the word apostasy.

You can't do that.

And you made the passage nonsensical.


Congratulations.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You changed the meaning of the word apostasy.

You can't do that.

And you made the passage nonsensical.


Congratulations.

I substituted the alternative meaning (that Paul uses elsewhere). I then included it as a possible translation and indicated that this changes the indicated order of events.

btw - as you read it, who is it who presently restrains who will be taken out of the way?

 

[TokiEl]

I substituted the alternative meaning (that Paul uses elsewhere).

Show me.

 

[Maldarker]

The restrainer is the HOLY SPIRIT! given to all who accepted JESUS as LORD & Saviour.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Show me.

The Verb Aphistēmi Can Refer to a Physical Departure

Words are ultimately derived from roots. From a common root one can develop both a noun form and a verbal form of a word. Sometimes in English we use the same word for both a noun and a verb. For example, if I said, “Jane went on a run,” I would be using “run” as a noun. However, if I said “see Jan run,” I would be using “run” as a verb. The verb form of the noun apostasia is the verb aphistēmi. Both the noun and verbal form emanate from the same root, (hístēmi - to cause to stand, to set or place).

As previously mentioned the noun apostasia is only mentioned twice in the Greek New Testament (Acts 21:21; 2 Thess. 2:3a). However, the verbal form aphistēmi is found 15 times in the New Testament. Interestingly, only three times does that verb aphistēmi mean a spiritual departure.

For example, it is used of a spiritual departure in Luke 8:13 where it says, “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.” “Fall away” is the English translation of aphistēmi, which refers to a spiritual departure. Similarly, First Timothy 4:1 says, “But the Spirit explicitly says that in latter times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” Again, “fall away” or aphistēmi refers to a spiritual departure here. In addition, Hebrews 3:12 says, “Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.” Again, “fall away” or aphistēmi refers to a spiritual departure apostasy.

However, the majority of times, or a full seventy-five percent of instances, where aphistēmi, is used in the Greek New Testament it does not refer to a spiritual departure, but rather to a physical departure.

 

[recure]

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (Matthew 13:30)

 

[TokiEl]

The Verb Aphistēmi Can Refer to a Physical Departure

Words are ultimately derived from roots. From a common root one can develop both a noun form and a verbal form of a word. Sometimes in English we use the same word for both a noun and a verb. For example, if I said, “Jane went on a run,” I would be using “run” as a noun. However, if I said “see Jan run,” I would be using “run” as a verb. The verb form of the noun apostasia is the verb aphistēmi. Both the noun and verbal form emanate from the same root, (hístēmi - to cause to stand, to set or place).

As previously mentioned the noun apostasia is only mentioned twice in the Greek New Testament (Acts 21:21; 2 Thess. 2:3a). However, the verbal form aphistēmi is found 15 times in the New Testament. Interestingly, only three times does that verb aphistēmi mean a spiritual departure.

For example, it is used of a spiritual departure in Luke 8:13 where it says, “Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.” “Fall away” is the English translation of aphistēmi, which refers to a spiritual departure. Similarly, First Timothy 4:1 says, “But the Spirit explicitly says that in latter times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.” Again, “fall away” or aphistēmi refers to a spiritual departure here. In addition, Hebrews 3:12 says, “Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.” Again, “fall away” or aphistēmi refers to a spiritual departure apostasy.

However, the majority of times, or a full seventy-five percent of instances, where aphistēmi, is used in the Greek New Testament it does not refer to a spiritual departure, but rather to a physical departure.

So the word Paul used in 2 Thess 2 was apostasia... if he ment aphistēmi he would probably use that word right ?

Apostasia he used once more as you said in Acts 21:21.

And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.


Apostasion is the neuter noun of the feminine form apostasia... and it means divorcement.


It is presumed that apostasion might be derived from aphistēmi which is a verb as you said... and everything else you said is right.

But the Apostle used the word apostasia.


And apostasia means falling away from faith, departure from doctrine, rebellion against religion etc etc... besides the text doesn't make sense it becomes nonsensical if you use rapture instead of rebellion.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

So the word Paul used in 2 Thess 2 was apostasia... if he ment aphistēmi he would probably use that word right ?

Apostasia he used once more as you said in Acts 21:21.

And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.


Apostasion is the neuter noun of the feminine form apostasia... and it means divorcement.


It is presumed that apostasion might be derived from aphistēmi which is a verb as you said... and everything else you said is right.

But the Apostle used the word apostasia.


And apostasia means falling away from faith, departure from doctrine, rebellion against religion etc etc... besides the text doesn't make sense it becomes nonsensical if you use rapture instead of rebellion.

Tbh my reply was based on a quick scan and copy of a relevant section of the book whilst at the gym!

if you want to see if Andy Wood’s perspective holds water, I suggest you invest a couple of hours and read his book!