Trinity VS Tawheed

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AHH - the "King of Kings Bible"

http://jahtruth.net/kofk-free/Bible/

You might get along well with @Forever Light !

Btw, I perfectly understand why it is almost impossible for a Muslim to contemplate the idea of a Trinity, as even considering the idea would be a "thought crime" against Allah of the worst kind.

View attachment 16762
Then they at least don't do that (think of God as having "partners") as they are actually told not to, in their Book. They (but not just them, as the message is directed towards all of mankind) are also told in the Qur'an to warn people not to make partners with God, so them doing this should not come as a surprise, neither should it be difficult to understand, since that is actually what they are told to do, in the part of Scripture that was given to them. However, they do other things that they should not because of following the fabricated hadiths. Whereas Christians also do the same, following their own set of hadiths (or "creeds" - Catechism - the Catholic hadiths).

That is the problem, and what has caused all the wars, following man made traditions instead of just following only the Scripture, which in the case of the New Tertament/Covenant says that Christ will come to YOU if His Teachings are followed. Not men with church doctrines. Christ said He will come to YOU, if you follow His Teachings and will do them. But the "traditions of men", like they have always done, always have ended up getting in the way of that, and instead of uniting the world has just kept on dividing it, continually, and right up to the present day.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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@bible_student

I posted this elsewhere quite a while ago, but it appears to indicate that the oft mocked 1 John 5:7 has early external corroborating evidence by at least one hostile writer.

The Very Earliest Witness for 1 John 5:7

...We have seen that there is a list of early writers who all attest, directly or indirectly, to the genuineness of the verse 1 John 5:7. The list begins with Theophilus of Antioch who wrote in the latter half of the 2nd century, and goes all the way up to the Council of Arles and beyond which sat at the beginning of the 4th century (see n. 12 below). But impressive though it is, there is one thing that is patently wrong with this list. The men in it are all Christian authors, and the suspicion comes naturally to mind that ‘well, they would say that, wouldn’t they’. They each had a deep theological interest in the subject of the Trinity and the vindication of the New Testament, and therefore it is only to be expected that they would say nothing to controvert the verse in question and everything they could to corroborate it. In other words, in the eyes of many skeptics, their words are shot through with bias and self interest. How can we possibly trust them?

Well, we can trust them on one point at least, namely that if the verse hadn’t existed in their time, then they each would have had to invent it, though for no obvious purpose. Another point on which we may trust them is this. In their day 1 John 5:7 was not in dispute. There was therefore no anti-Arian axe to grind and therefore no need to mention it, yet they mention or quote from the verse anyway if only in passing. Such incidental treatment of the verse speaks powerfully for the genuineness of their statements and for the inclusion of 1 John 5:7 in the very earliest manuscripts of the New Testament, manuscripts which were still extant and with which they were all familiar. But even this observation will not do. It is nowhere near radical enough. What is needed to settle the matter is an independent witness to the early presence of 1 John 5:7; one who was patently not a Christian; preferably someone who was an actively anti-Christian pagan writer (making him a hostile witness); someone who pre-dates even the earliest of the Christian apologists (namely Theophilus of Antioch in this case); and whose writing directly refers to or even quotes from 1 John 5:7 - and, moreover, just to make things really difficult, one whose hostile testimony was produced within just fifty years of the close of the Eyewitness Period during which John wrote his first epistle. Produce such a witness as that – one who fulfils every one of these thoroughly unreasonable criteria – and we will surely and truly believe that 1 John 5:7 was no late interpolation, but an integral component of the first epistle of John from the very beginning. Do that and the argument will surely be settled. Now, that is what we may call a tall order, a very tall order indeed - and a most unreasonable one at that. Where can we possibly hope to find such a writer - one who is pagan and a hostile witness to Christianity, who wrote demonstrably within just fifty years of John, and who quotes from or directly alludes to 1 John 5:7? It is a tall order indeed, and seems impossible to meet.

Providentially, however, it is one that is met on every point by the anti-Christian satirist Lucian of Samosata, whose too-little-publicised satire, Philopatros, has survived to the present day. It is a most intriguing document. Firstly, there is its date. Mainly for the fact that it mentions a punitive expedition into Persia by the Romans, there are two emperors under which the Philopatros could have been written. The first is Trajan who was emperor from AD 98-117; and the second is Marcus Antoninus, who reigned from 161-180.
Expeditions into Persia took place under both emperors, so which one was it?

Critics generally plump for the latter of the two simply because this removes the witness further from the scene. But interestingly, the dialogue of the Philopatros undoes the notion by mentioning the taking by the Romans of the Persian city of Susa – the Shushan of the Book of Esther – which occurred under Trajan in the year 116. Marcus Antoninus’ incursion into Persia was to descend into farce before it had even begun, with nothing taken by Rome at all apart from a very bloody nose. Thus it is the taking of Susa under Trajan which dates the Philopatros, giving it an earliest possible year of writing of AD 116, within just 46 years of the close of the Eyewitness Period during which John wrote his first epistle.19

And then there is its intriguing title, Philopatros. It is Greek for ‘love of the Father,’ and is powerfully reminiscent of John’s repeated allusions to the love of the Father which appear in his first epistle (throughout but particularly in 1John 2:15; & 3:1). Clearly, and on this ground alone, we may conclude that Lucian of Samosata was familiar with the first epistle of John, very familiar indeed. But there’s more – much more.

Remarkably, and out of all the verses of the New Testament that he could have parodied, Lucian satirises for us our disputed verse, 1 John 5:7. He puts his own satirical slant on it, to be sure, but he has clearly taken 1 John 5:7 and made it the focus of his parody. Even after he has done his work, the close resemblance between the contents of what Lucian has written and 1 John 5:7 is truly remarkable, and leaves no room whatever for any notion of coincidence or happenstance. One wonders why the critics never mention it.20 But let’s see how Lucian deals with the verse.

1 John 5:7 has: “For there are Three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these Three are One.” (King James Version)

Satirising the verse, Lucian has: “The mighty god that rules on high, Immortal dwelling in the sky, the son of the father, spirit proceeding from the father, three in one and one in three. Think him your Zeus, consider him your god.”21

Interesting, isn’t it? Lucian’s satire (by which he meant to mock the Word of God) contains not just Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he even tells us that these Three are One, exactly as John does in the 7th verse of his first epistle’s 5th chapter, though in parody, thus unwittingly – I should say Providentially - vindicating the Word of God in one of its most controverted statements. Why, he even uses the neuter gender for ‘three’, as does John, a usage which Porson and so many of his ilk have needlessly and foolishly choked upon. Lucian could not have copied his material from any early 1 John 5:7 apologist, for the earliest of those (Theophilus of Antioch) did not appear on the scene for another fifty years, and the verse was not to be publicly challenged by the Arian heresy for a further 300 years; which leaves only one possible source for his satire, namely John’s first epistle.

How else could he have made use not only its content and unique turns of phrase, but also its grammar? Could a better witness than this be had from anywhere in the ancient world? Dating as it does from within just fifty years of the Eyewitness Period – long before our earliest Christian apologist for this verse - and coming as it does from the hand of a decidedly hostile witness, is it possible to ask for more? We may not think so.

This is a truly excellent testimony to the authenticity, and indeed the antiquity of 1 John 5:7 – a source of evidence which our critics strangely forget to tell us about. Curious, isn’t it? Philopatros has been available to them since 1506, yet they would rather have us believe that 1 John 5:7 is a spurious interpolation and no true part of the New Testament, not having appeared for several centuries after the New Testament period. Yet this astounding and unsuspected source of evidence meets all of the unreasonable evidential demands that are made upon it and is, in every sense, as plain as day. I shall leave the reader to guess why it has gone unmentioned all these years.22

Extract from Authenticity of the New Testament (Part 2) Bill Cooper

Notes from the Postscript on this chapter...

19. Forster, A New Plea..., p. 34. AD 116 would admittedly be a little early, as Lucian was but a child in that year. However, the Greek of Philopatros is clumsy and unpolished (Macleod, p. 414), and no doubt reflects the fact that Philopatros was one of his first attempts at writing parody. Either way, it still dates to long before Theophilus of Antioch, the earliest 1 John 5:7 apologist from whom Lucian might have copied his information.

20. I know of no modern critic who treats of the Philopatros and its vindication of the verse 1 John 5:7. Porson, however, does refer to it – with revulsion, to be sure - but he does mention it. He writes it off with no evidence whatever as an early 4th-century forgery, but even so it clearly unnerves him, for even the 4th century is way too early for the appearance of 1 John 5:7 in any pagan writer. According to the critics’ model the verse hadn’t even been written by then. Porson writes: “I know not whether I ought to mention the ‘Philopatros’, a dialogue written early in the fourth century, and falsely ascribed to Lucian, where the Christian Trinity is thus ridiculed.” (cit. Forster, A New Plea..., p. 30). He knew that mentioning it at all undid his case, whilst not mentioning it would have opened him to a charge of dishonesty - most discomfiting. So discomfiting, in fact, that an attempt has been made in more recent times on no good grounds to date Philopatros to the 10th century simply because that is the date of its earliest surviving mss (MacLeod, p. 414). For the problems this raises, see Postscript above.

21. MacLeod, Lucian Volume VIII. 1967. Loeb Classical Library. p. 437. In its original Greek, the passage reads: “...υιον πατρος πνευμα εκ πατρος εκπορευομενον ενα εκ τριων και εξ ενος τρια.” My thanks to Dr James J Scofield Johnson, Chief Academic Officer of ICR’s School of Biblical Apologetics, for supplying me with a literal translation and a thorough grammatical analysis of the passage, enabling me to check MacLeod’s accuracy in translating such an important piece.

22. Critics who lazily lean on Porson for their wit and knowledge, would have learned of Philopatros from Porson’s own mention of it (see n. 20). But since Porson’s day, something strange has happened to the title of Philopatros. Lucian’s works were first translated into Latin by Erasmus in 1506, then in co-authorship with Thomas More in 1521, and were afterwards translated afresh in 1634; 1637; 1638; 1663 and 1684. Various Greek-Latin extracts of Lucian were published in the late 17th and early 18th centuries, but somewhere along the line the title of Philopatros (love of the Father) was changed to Philopatris (love of country). See for example Jacobitz, Luciani Samosatensis Opera. 1904. Leipzig. Vol 3. pp. 411-425. Patriotism is not the focus of this parody. The love of the Father is, which makes one wonder if the alteration was made some time after 1790 - when Porson uses its correct title - to disguise Philopatros’ contents and their significance for 1 John 5:7. It underwent this change during the height of the rationalist ‘Age of Enlightenment’ after all. If it was deliberate, then it was very effective, for few in the modern age have even heard of Lucian’s Philopatros, let alone know what it contains. After all, an old Greek satire on patriotism isn’t likely to stimulate curiosity in anyone, especially when they find that it’s not even about patriotism. Thus, this simple change in title guaranteed that Philopatros – the greatest witness we have for the authenticity and antiquity of 1 John 5:7 - would thereafter languish in obscurity... till now, at any rate. (The Philopatros should not be confused with Lucian’s Patridos, which certainly is about patriotism; see Fowler, The Works of Lucian of Samosata. 1905. Oxford. Vol 4. pp. 23-26).
 

DesertRose

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RE: Trinity
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together…The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180…Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, “De pud.”, xxi.


“The mind of man cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity. He who has tried to understand the mystery fully will lose his mind; but he who would deny the Trinity will lose his soul.” (DR: Rather if you believe in it you will lose your soul. God is not the author of confusion, indeed.)
Harold Lindsell and Charles Woodbridge, A Handbook of Christian Truth, pp. 51-52.


"The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. '
Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 234.


"The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains “hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness”
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Constitution, “De fide. cath.”, iv.




Re: Tawheed: Oneness of God

“These are the verses of the clear Book.” [Chapter 26, verse 2]

They have certainly disbelieved who say, “Allah is the third of three”… [Chapter 5, verse 73]

And do not say, “Three”; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. [Chapter 4, verse 171]

The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded. [Chapter 5, verse 75]

We have sent you [O Prophet] as a bearer of glad tidings and a warner for the whole of mankind, but most people have no knowledge. [Chapter 34, verse 28]

Verily, in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest [Chapter 13, verse 28]

http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com/2015/08/20/tawheed-versus-trinity-which-is-the-true-concept-of-god-part-1/

 
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Red Sky at Morning

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The Hidden Hebrew Message on the Pilate’s Cross
By Dr. Lizorkin-Eyzenberg


18 There they crucified him… 19 Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read,“Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Ioudaioi (traditionally translated as “the Jews”).” 20 Many of the Ioudaioi read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Hebrew, in Latin, and in Greek. 21 So the chief priests of the Ioudaioi said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Ioudaioi,’ but rather, ‘This man said, I am King of the Ioudaioi.’” 22 Pilate answered, “What I have written I have written.” (John 19:16b-22)

Pilate rightfully felt that the Judean leaders had manipulated him into ordering Jesus’ execution (John 19:12). As a result, he wanted to get back at them, hitting them where it hurt the most. Pilate understood that the Temple leaders had falsely used the “Son of God” argument against Jesus, so he turned their manipulation back on them when he recorded his criminal charge against Jesus.


Fra Angelico, from a Dominican Monastery in Fiesole (1434)

The text of the inscription about Jesus’ “crime” was placed on a sign to be nailed above his head. A painting by Fra Angelico (1434) suggests an interesting speculation about this inscription. Fra Angelico had a lifelong fascination with the written word. The accuracy of his Greek, Latin, and Hebrew inscriptions reveals his participation in the linguistic studies that flourished in Florence and Rome in the first half of the fifteenth century. In this crucifixion painting, he reconstructed what might have been the original Hebrew written on that sign.

The inscription in the painting reads in Hebrew, ישוע הנצרי ומלך היהודים. This translates as, “Jesus the Nazarite and the King of the Jews.” Fra Angelico added “and” because grammatically it was very possibly (if not probably) the way the original text appeared.

So, how did Pilate return the favor to the Temple rulers who forced him into condemning Jesus to die? He did so by writing the statement of Jesus’ guilt in Hebrew in such a way that it actually portrayed Jesus as YHWH (יהוה) Himself!

But how?

Here is the sentence “Jesus of Nazareth and the King of the Jews” in Hebrew. Remember, Hebrew is read from right to left. I’ve highlighted the first letter of each word.

(ישוע הנצרי ומלך היהודים)

The acrostic formed by taking the first letter of each word of the sentence “Jesus of Nazareth and (“ו”) the King of the Jews” is “יהוה” (YHWH) – the covenant name of Israel’s God! This is why the Temple leaders were so unhappy with how Pilate versed his charge.
 

Todd

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The Hidden Hebrew Message on the Pilate’s Cross
By Dr. Lizorkin-Eyzenberg


18 There they crucified him… 19 Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It read,“Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Ioudaioi (traditionally translated as “the Jews”).” 20 Many of the Ioudaioi read this inscription, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Hebrew, in Latin, and in Greek. 21 So the chief priests of the Ioudaioi said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Ioudaioi,’ but rather, ‘This man said, I am King of the Ioudaioi.’” 22 Pilate answered, “What I have written I have written.” (John 19:16b-22)

Pilate rightfully felt that the Judean leaders had manipulated him into ordering Jesus’ execution (John 19:12). As a result, he wanted to get back at them, hitting them where it hurt the most. Pilate understood that the Temple leaders had falsely used the “Son of God” argument against Jesus, so he turned their manipulation back on them when he recorded his criminal charge against Jesus.


Fra Angelico, from a Dominican Monastery in Fiesole (1434)

The text of the inscription about Jesus’ “crime” was placed on a sign to be nailed above his head. A painting by Fra Angelico (1434) suggests an interesting speculation about this inscription. Fra Angelico had a lifelong fascination with the written word. The accuracy of his Greek, Latin, and Hebrew inscriptions reveals his participation in the linguistic studies that flourished in Florence and Rome in the first half of the fifteenth century. In this crucifixion painting, he reconstructed what might have been the original Hebrew written on that sign.

The inscription in the painting reads in Hebrew, ישוע הנצרי ומלך היהודים. This translates as, “Jesus the Nazarite and the King of the Jews.” Fra Angelico added “and” because grammatically it was very possibly (if not probably) the way the original text appeared.

So, how did Pilate return the favor to the Temple rulers who forced him into condemning Jesus to die? He did so by writing the statement of Jesus’ guilt in Hebrew in such a way that it actually portrayed Jesus as YHWH (יהוה) Himself!

But how?

Here is the sentence “Jesus of Nazareth and the King of the Jews” in Hebrew. Remember, Hebrew is read from right to left. I’ve highlighted the first letter of each word.

(ישוע הנצרי ומלך היהודים)

The acrostic formed by taking the first letter of each word of the sentence “Jesus of Nazareth and (“ו”) the King of the Jews” is “יהוה” (YHWH) – the covenant name of Israel’s God! This is why the Temple leaders were so unhappy with how Pilate versed his charge.
Kind of scrapping the bottom of the barrel by using the political agenda of the Roman prefect that ordered Jesus' crucifixion and the reaction of the Temple leaders whom Jesus vehemently opposed, as evidence of your doctrine, isn't it?

It's an interesting fact, it true, but hardly evidence to base your faith on...
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Kind of scrapping the bottom of the barrel by using the political agenda of the Roman prefect that ordered Jesus' crucifixion and the reaction of the Temple leaders whom Jesus vehemently opposed, as evidence of your doctrine, isn't it?

It's an interesting fact, it true, but hardly evidence to base your faith on...
Indeed Todd, I shared it because I found it interesting supplemental information. I don't base my doctrine on Pilate* ;-)

*What is truth?
 

DesertRose

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The end was verbal diarrhea from Wood and it was fitting that the Brethren did not respond to that. Kudos to Mohammad Hijab for a job well done.
May the Creator guide those who mock others to that which is better. Ameen.



“No vision can grasp Him
But His grasp is over
All vision: He is
Above all comprehension,
Yet is acquainted with all things.”

[Al-Qur’an 6:103]
 
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elsbet

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Kind of scrapping the bottom of the barrel by using the political agenda of the Roman prefect that ordered Jesus' crucifixion and the reaction of the Temple leaders whom Jesus vehemently opposed, as evidence of your doctrine, isn't it?

It's an interesting fact, it true, but hardly evidence to base your faith on...
Scraping the bottom of the barrel...

I disagree with that comment. Any details surrounding the crucifixion are pertinent because it is, without question, the most important event in all eternity.
 

Thunderian

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you're basing this off the assumption that historically all christians have 'understood it' when in reality most haven't. I'm sure i can walk around in many parts of the world where christians hold bad interpretations of it
For example...when most of you think of SON you literally hold the image of Baby Jesus or at least Jesus the man. In this format, the Father is perceived as a literal man-giant in the sky who literally begot a son.
I have chatted to a christian on here who said the God in Genesis, the one who was playing hide and seek with Adam and Even in paradise, is literally the actual God.
in islamic tawheed that would fail completely because 'Allah is not contained in a place'.
manifested via His Immanence, sure..but literally a man-giant type of entity, that is kufr.
Furthermore im sure catholics refer to mary as the literal mother of God.

these are problematic statements for most people. Religion has to cater to the dumb too. It is not very wise to preach grand philosophical ideas to joe public when you know very well most will misinterpret it.

The view of the trinity i hold to be true is that the Son and Holy Spirit are really the Macrocosmic and Microcosmic expression of God ie Spirit/consciousness, universal and individual.

Islam was given to bedoin arab people..and even today many of the converts to islam are people in prison's for example. They hold simple ideas
'God is 3 didnt make sense, so we became muslim, it makes sense'

btw i have literally yet to ever meet a christian who could actually explain the trinity according to your held beliefs. it has always been a fail. I read St Augustine's book of the trinity and even that was just, all over the place. He tried to defend it from a philosophical standpoint and failed.
Yet the irony is Plotinus, a non-christian greek philosopher who travelled to Persia to learn philosophy...understood the trinity far better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plotinus#Major_ideas
IN FACT the christians actually based their own interpretation of the trinity OFF plotinus!! people like st augustine were influenced by him.

I've always said the concept of Trinity, The logos, the incarnation, the holy spirit etc are all influenced by VEDIC/hindu philosophy.
The fact is Philo the jewish philosopher based his ideas off greek philosophy which was influenced by persian and ultimately originates from india.

So basically christians like yourself are not even qualified to teach the rest of us about the trinitarian doctrine.





Aside from all that, muslims should not try tackling this topic from a tawheed angle. Tawheed is the logical perspective. the trinity is a mystical perspective.
Muhammad believed that the Trinity was God the Father, Jesus Christ, and his mother Mary. If you're a Muslim, you are supposed to believe that as well.

Christians believe that the Trinity is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, just like the Bible says.

But sure, why don't you Islamsplain our faith to us some more.
 

DesertRose

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This was addressed by brother Mohammad Hijab in the video btw.
The Quran on the Trinity? - Dr. Shabir Ally

Does Quran Teach Mary is in the Trinity? Ali Ataie and Taylor Marshall Crush Christian Polemics
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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No, I've read that too-- that Muslims think Christians believe God, Jesus and Mary comprise the trinity. We dont, but it seems Muhammad thought so.
When I was a kid, you could get an orange juice that was more sugar and additives than real juice, but on the TV it was marketed as "The good stuff kids go for".


You could have forgiven Muhammad for his confusion. So much idolatry and paganism had found its way into the Church in places that you can see how he could easily have misunderstood Christian doctrine.
 

Thunderian

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Why is @TempestOfTempo always trying to stifle discussion? What do you suppose he's afraid of?

Historically, it's the people who know their beliefs won't stand up to scrutiny, who try and shut the mouths of those who wish to explore the truth.
 

DesertRose

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“No vision can grasp Him
But His grasp is over
All vision: He is
Above all comprehension,
Yet is acquainted with all things.”
[Al-Qur’an 6:103]

Check the videos to see the Quran's perpective on the trinity.
Does Quran Teach Mary is in the Trinity? Ali Ataie and Taylor Marshall Crush Christian Polemics

The Quran on the Trinity? - Dr. Shabir Ally


 
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