What’s the Muslim perspective on the occupation of Palestine?

[TempestOfTempo]

I’m not sure what happened between you guys, so I’ll bow out of it.

but with regards to the age of Aisha stuff. Flipping heck, there’s so much contention about it today in the modern age, as if we hold the moral high ground and those who came before us had no leg to stand on.

I mean, it’s quite odd that we who are alive today think we can dictate the moral standard to a people who lived in ancient times.It’s hubris. Our times are not their times. Today we have women dressed but undressed, men and women having sex changes and all manner of sexual ills in society, which just weren’t present or even conceptualised in the ancient times we are attempting to plaster our hypocritical sense of morality on to. Don’t you find that odd?

From a purely historical perspective, no one - not even the enemies of Mohammed - took issue with his marrying Aisha in ancient times. Whether she was 9 when she consummated or 19 is irrelevant. It wasn’t out of the norm of the tribes that lived in Arabia. And that is the fastest sticking point there is.

Any attempt to apply our faulty sense of moral justice to an ancient people’s traditions is embarrassing. I hope what I have written here goes some way to answering whatever issue you may have had with the whole “age 9 narrations” topic. It used to be an issue for me too, until I learnt how to think the issue through truthfully, honestly, and skilfully. I had help though. And I thank God for that.

"I’m not sure what happened between you guys"
Look at how Daze interacts with posters here. I might not have Alan Alda-level sensitivity or whatever, but does he actually think he is defending Islam or attracting people to it with his actions?

"it’s quite odd that we who are alive today think we can dictate the moral standard to a people who lived in ancient times"
Well, my perspective is that grown adults with kids sexually is always a loser, no compromises. But initially I could tell myself similar things yet it never sat right with me. So when I look at the people who claim the 17-19 camp, they have a lot of hadeeth based evidence as well as scientific. The 6-9 camp only relies on hadeeth which are not guaranteed to be accurate and they know this. So for me, if both hadeeth and chronologically scientific timelines are in synergy at her age being 17-19, I take that very seriously because I dont believe that Muhammed was the type of man who would engage in ped behavior. Its not my personal whim as some posters here have recently stated... Im just looking at the evidence.

You saw the reception Im given for even asking the question here... People like Daze are angry because my question challenges them in a way they dont have answers for and people like Bubba are angry because they lose one of their most potent lies against Islam.

"Today we have women dressed but undressed, men and women having sex changes and all manner of sexual ills in society, which just weren’t present or even conceptualised in the ancient times we are attempting to plaster our hypocritical sense of morality on to. Don’t you find that odd?"
Oh they were both saucy and sleazy back then... out of control wanton, wild wickedness... Islam is supposed to be the final stone in the monothiestic house to right these people, but you can observe the modern Muslims behavior for yourself. So while I might personally object to a lot of this modern worlds open sexuality, violence, materialism, outright satanism and etc. I pretty much expect it becaue these are just the times we are living in. This is when were are born and living, this is what we know.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Me neither



Concensus isn’t about the theology at all. Universally all Muslims accept there is only 1 God. Concensus is about the practice of the religion, and jurisprudence/laws and how they are applied/interpreted.


Yeah, I’m not sure that’s true either. It’s easy to point the finger to a fallen priest or imam and claim “they’re all like that”. We love pointing the finger. It’s unfortunate. Truth be told, I’ve kinda thrown myself into the study of Islam and without intending to sound like a geek, I’m actually attempting to geek as much of it as I can in the next 6 months. This also includes learning Arabic.

When you mention “we don’t have proper structure/accountability” I take it your speaking as a Muslim who is not a native Arab and living in the west, most likely in a country ruled by secular law. Sure, you’d be right about the structure part, but even then I’ve heard many a Muslim claim it’s easier to practice Islam in the west than it is in some Muslim nations. God knows how true that is. I have not way to make that comparison for myself, I’ve not lived in a Muslim nation as a Muslim to know that anecdotally.

with regard to the “accountability” part, isn’t that what the day of judgement portends to? The accountability?


I’m sure you can do better than that if you dig a little harder.

“Out beyond the ideas of right and wrong, there is a field. I’ll meet you there” ~ Rumi

maybe you should look for the grassy pastures between those two polar opposites. It’s really not a grey area. It’s a very green area.

"Concensus isn’t about the theology at all. Universally all Muslims accept there is only 1 God. Concensus is about the practice of the religion, and jurisprudence/laws and how they are applied/interpreted."
The theology is what provides the guidelines and structure to implement fair and true, Islamically legal, decisions responsible for consensus. At least that is my interpretation of how it should work. Otherwise, its just another "ism" imo.

"Yeah, I’m not sure that’s true either. It’s easy to point the finger to a fallen priest or imam and claim “they’re all like that”."
I am not saying there is no guidance to be found, but its too easy for an opposing perspective to find someone who can vindicate their desired outcome. Too easy to find fatwa's and haddeth interpretations which justify about anything a persona can come up with. So Im not saying there isnt quality guidance out there somewhere... but even if you can find it, there will be people "disproving" you because its inconvenient or unprofitable for them. This is a very serious issue because the current state has devolved into an "everyone for themselves" situation and its eerily approaching "do what thou wilt" levels but again, this is the modern world we live in. This has been foretold.

"When you mention “we don’t have proper structure/accountability” I take it your speaking as a Muslim who is not a native Arab and living in the west, most likely in a country ruled by secular law."
Not at all. I'd look for guidance from wherever Im at before I would look to an Arab or Muslim nation. The character displayed by the person is more important than an Islamic education to me. If they have a deep Islamic upbringing and really know scripture and etc. thats even better... but if its just a hustle I can do without it. Rather be with decent people with a basic Islamic foundation who are striving for more than learned individuals who are predators and parasites.

"maybe you should look for the grassy pastures between those two polar opposites. It’s really not a grey area. It’s a very green area."
An interesting quote. I can give it some thought.

"with regard to the “accountability” part, isn’t that what the day of judgement portends to? The accountability?"
Thats divine accountability. I was referring to a system of checks and balances which assure proper Islamic jurisprudence and etc... its just very difficult to locate these days.

 

[TrollingTroubles]

There’s a lot I disagree with in both your last posts. But there’s no point in discussing it anymore, given that you have already cemented your opinions.

 

[Daze]

"I’m not sure what happened between you guys"
Look at how Daze interacts with posters here. I might not have Alan Alda-level sensitivity or whatever, but does he actually think he is defending Islam or attracting people to it with his actions?

You insulted my prophet. What do you expect really?

If i called your mother with something along the same lines what would you do? Everyone here knows you're not gonna be offering cake and cookies.

Like it or not Tempo the Prophet of Islam (saw) was and is the best of creation and I'm not the one who says so.

The One who says he is the best of creation you will meet on judgement day.

Peace.

 

[Daze]

First ask yourself why Daze would mention that hes ignoring me in the first place... if he was ignoring me, he wouldnt be mentioning me. Period. So obviously what he just said isnt true, hes just talking to others about me instead of addressing me directly.

I have no reason to lie tempo. I have multiple people ignored but uncovering one uncovers all. No worries, I'm sure there is plenty you have said that i have never seen and have zero desire to read.

 

[Daze]

This is what i see Tempo.



Sometimes my curiosity gets the better of me so i click unveil. But if no one is quoting you i don't even know you're in the thread.

As i said above, I'm sure you say plenty that i never see, along with everyone else in my ignore list.

For the most part, everyone I've ignored has been abusive. Otherwise i don't bother. There are multiple people here i haven't ignored that i don't see eye to eye with. But they don't get abusive, like calling my prophet a p***phile or saying "piss be upon him" like Bubba has.

I could give reasons for everyone in my list but its not important. I may be alot of things Tempo, but one thing I'm not.. is a liar.

 

[InfoHarb]

From a purely historical perspective, no one - not even the enemies of Mohammed - took issue with his marrying Aisha in ancient times. Whether she was 9 when she consummated or 19 is irrelevant. It wasn’t out of the norm of the tribes that lived in Arabia. And that is the fastest sticking point there is.

It wasn't even just ancient times. No one really cared until around sometime in the 20th century. It doesn't make sense to try to impose 20th century Western values on people who lived 1,400 years ago.

Lots of Christians throughout history tried to refute Islam. Thomas Aquinas in the middle ages tried to refute Islam. No one said anything about Aisha because no one cared- including Aisha herself. This whole thing of trying to make an issue of it is just an attempt to try to force modern-day Western values on a historical figure who lived 1,400 years ago in Arabia.

 

[InfoHarb]

Its not similar to you as it doesn't seem Tempo believed this in the beginning. The guy comes off as a wolf in sheep's clothing. But as you alluded to earlier. Only God can read the heart.

What we can conclude is that TempestOfTempo is at the very least an extreme deviant if not a munafiq and kaffir.

There is no true, Islamic verification system for hadeeth. Hadeeth would be worthless if it were only a non-factor... as it is, hadeeth is worse than worthless. Hadeeth is a negative. Born-and-bred Muslims have taken hadeeth over Quran and Muhammad over Allah. Look at where its gotten them...

When you look at this attack on hadith, this bizarre attack on Muslims who aren't reverts (the immense majority of the Muslim ummah) and you look at how earlier in this thread TempestOfTempo made up his own interpretation of Ijma- TempestOfTempo follows a one-man sect consisting only of himself. He doesn't even know Arabic and yet he allegedly knows Islam better than everyone else.

The person constantly attacks Muslims and seems to have some kind of contempt for Muslims who aren't reverts. His Islam is definitely questionable.

Abdullah bin Amr reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “The Muslim is one from whose tongue and hand Muslims are safe. The emigrant is the one who abandons what Allah has forbidden.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 10, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 40

Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim

No one should listen to what Tempest says on Islam and especially people who don't know much about the religion as Tempo literally has created his own one-man sect.

 

[InfoHarb]

More hadeeths from Desert Rose... the constant flip-flopper. First she likes my posts, then she likes posts attacking and accusing me... then shes my friend, then shes not. Then when I come back she tells me I was right regarding what I post, but when I question the faulty hadeeths which allow for Muslims to engage in child r*pe, shes back to liking posts which accuse and insult me lol

Desert Rose represents around a billion Muslims, as her interpretation is recognized by Muslims across the world. You don't represent anyone but yourself, being that you represent a one-man sect that you invented. You as a revert who doesn't know Arabic, insulting non-reverts, constantly attacking Muslims in general- you are like a guest who enters a house and has no respect or manners, thinking you own the place when you are a person who just walked in. You should have some respect. You can at least learn Arabic and basics of the din before you declare yourself sheikh-ul-Islam.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

You insulted my prophet. What do you expect really?

If i called your mother with something along the same lines what would you do? Everyone here knows you're not gonna be offering cake and cookies.

Like it or not Tempo the Prophet of Islam (saw) was and is the best of creation and I'm not the one who says so.

The One who says he is the best of creation you will meet on judgement day.

Peace.

You are a fraud... just like the rest, you hide behind salacious lies and accusations... and just as before, you cant answer the simple question or leave it alone. You only address me now because I called out your public backbiting that everyone could see. Perhaps you should go read a hadeeth abut backbiting and its consequences.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

This is what i see Tempo.

View attachment 65577

Sometimes my curiosity gets the better of me so i click unveil. But if no one is quoting you i don't even know you're in the thread.

As i said above, I'm sure you say plenty that i never see, along with everyone else in my ignore list.

For the most part, everyone I've ignored has been abusive. Otherwise i don't bother. There are multiple people here i haven't ignored that i don't see eye to eye with. But they don't get abusive, like calling my prophet a p***phile or saying "piss be upon him" like Bubba has.

I could give reasons for everyone in my list but its not important. I may be alot of things Tempo, but one thing I'm not.. is a liar.

You told another poster who seems to be having real spiritual/emotion issues to "Say hi to your demons for me"... thats disgusting and haraam, but perhaps you will get the chance to greet those "demons" in person. Will you have salaam or the behavior you display here should you meet those supernatural adversaries? Since you invited them into contact, who will you call on to save you?

 

[TempestOfTempo]

What we can conclude is that TempestOfTempo is at the very least an extreme deviant if not a munafiq and kaffir.



When you look at this attack on hadith, this bizarre attack on Muslims who aren't reverts (the immense majority of the Muslim ummah) and you look at how earlier in this thread TempestOfTempo made up his own interpretation of Ijma- TempestOfTempo follows a one-man sect consisting only of himself. He doesn't even know Arabic and yet he allegedly knows Islam better than everyone else.

The person constantly attacks Muslims and seems to have some kind of contempt for Muslims who aren't reverts. His Islam is definitely questionable.

Abdullah bin Amr reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “The Muslim is one from whose tongue and hand Muslims are safe. The emigrant is the one who abandons what Allah has forbidden.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 10, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 40

Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim

No one should listen to what Tempest says on Islam and especially people who don't know much about the religion as Tempo literally has created his own one-man sect.

"What we can conclude is that TempestOfTempo is at the very least an extreme deviant if not a munafiq and kaffir."
What does your own precious hadeeth say regarding accusations that others are not Muslim? My understanding is that Muhammed was clear in this hadeeth... when one accuses another of not being a Muslim... one of them is outside of Islam." Its clear who he was referring to. You just proved my point... when people lie, manipulate and distort hadeeth for their own reasons or convenience, its relevance and weight disappear.

"He doesn't even know Arabic"
Now you are a soothsayer? Expected.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Desert Rose represents around a billion Muslims, as her interpretation is recognized by Muslims across the world. You don't represent anyone but yourself, being that you represent a one-man sect that you invented. You as a revert who doesn't know Arabic, insulting non-reverts, constantly attacking Muslims in general- you are like a guest who enters a house and has no respect or manners, thinking you own the place when you are a person who just walked in. You should have some respect. You can at least learn Arabic and basics of the din before you declare yourself sheikh-ul-Islam.

I stand against the pedo lie advanced against Muhammed. I stand against child marriage and r*pe, bachi bazi, taharrush, female genital mutilation, honor killings, forced marriages... all illegal in true Islam. You all stand for it either because yall are down with it or because you dont have the guts to stand against these haraam practices, which take place each and every day in the Muslim world.

Sometimes it does feel like Im standing alone, but I know there are others standing with me. Evene if they dont, I would rather stand alone against these atrocities than go along with the crowd in co-signing them. The fact that you are yet another "Muslim" poster who wants to make this about me, Christians, non-religious peoples and etc. yet cant address the basic questions raised regarding Aisha's true age is just another glaring example to anyone outside of your bubble as to why you people deserve no trust or credence towards your words.

 

[seekinheart]

that was one of my early contentions too. A little digging and I cannot hold that opinion in good faith anymore. The Prophet of Islam, the noble Mohammed peace be upon him, was in my honest opinion the best man who ever lived. Maybe Tempest of Tempo has come to understand this too now? Let’s see

The best man who ever lived ? Bahahaha

 

[InfoHarb]

I stand against the pedo lie advanced against Muhammed. I stand against child marriage and r*pe, bachi bazi, taharrush, female genital mutilation, honor killings, forced marriages... all illegal in true Islam. You all stand for it either because yall are down with it or because you dont have the guts to stand against these haraam practices, which take place each and every day in the Muslim world.

Are you running for office in India with the BJP? Are you that... what's that guy... that shia guy that goes on Fox news and portrays Muslims as savages? "I'm a real imam and I can tell you, yes, Zionist Fox News, Muslims are savages"- he's a shia guy I'm sure someone here must know his name. You might as well be talking about "rapefugees," "muslims do taqiyyah bro" and "they're doing love jihad and taking our Hindu women!".

You are about as convincing as a man in a plastic suit playing Godzilla. You are a Muslim? I don't think even Fox news hosts since like 2003 talk about Muslims like you do. I don't think Netanyahu himself talks about Muslims like you do. Even Narendra Modi doesn't talk about Muslims like you do. Most BJP members don't even talk about Muslims like you do.

Why do you sound like a generic Zionist when you talk about Muslims? I would say Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh but I don't think even they (since around the early 2000's) would go as far as you.

One minute you present yourself as a Muslim, the next minute you're an anti-Muslim hardliner even for Fox News or the BJP.

And the "Islam" you promote is a one-man sect consisting of only yourself and you are against Islam as practiced by literally everyone who isn't you.

I think you're a munafiq. And no, we are not rapefugees, we don't believe in "bacha bazi" (which is an Afghan cultural practice which has nothing to do with Islam and which Afghan Muslims fought against), we don't do love jihad, honor killings are again a cultural practice and not actually from Islam, forced marriage is against the sharia and we're not doing taqiyyah or whatever other Zionist/BJP/David Wood-type talking point you want to promote.

 

[InfoHarb]

@TempestOfTempo if you are actually a Muslim and not just pretending to be one online.... how many rakahs are in Maghrib and how do you know how many rakahs are in Maghrib- on what source, what authority, how do you know how many rakahs to pray in Maghrib? Or do you not pray salaat?

 

[Daze]

@TempestOfTempo if you are actually a Muslim and not just pretending to be one online.... how many rakahs are in Maghrib and how do you know how many rakahs are in Maghrib- on what source, what authority, how do you know how many rakahs to pray in Maghrib? Or do you not pray salaat?

That's hilarious. Calls Islams prophet a p***phile and prays salat. Who does he pray to? Certainly not the one who sent the last Prophet (saw).

If Tempo is a Hindu it would make alot of sense.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

Are you running for office in India with the BJP? Are you that... what's that guy... that shia guy that goes on Fox news and portrays Muslims as savages? "I'm a real imam and I can tell you, yes, Zionist Fox News, Muslims are savages"- he's a shia guy I'm sure someone here must know his name. You might as well be talking about "rapefugees," "muslims do taqiyyah bro" and "they're doing love jihad and taking our Hindu women!".

You are about as convincing as a man in a plastic suit playing Godzilla. You are a Muslim? I don't think even Fox news hosts since like 2003 talk about Muslims like you do. I don't think Netanyahu himself talks about Muslims like you do. Even Narendra Modi doesn't talk about Muslims like you do. Most BJP members don't even talk about Muslims like you do.

Why do you sound like a generic Zionist when you talk about Muslims? I would say Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh but I don't think even they (since around the early 2000's) would go as far as you.

One minute you present yourself as a Muslim, the next minute you're an anti-Muslim hardliner even for Fox News or the BJP.

And the "Islam" you promote is a one-man sect consisting of only yourself and you are against Islam as practiced by literally everyone who isn't you.

I think you're a munafiq. And no, we are not rapefugees, we don't believe in "bacha bazi" (which is an Afghan cultural practice which has nothing to do with Islam and which Afghan Muslims fought against), we don't do love jihad, honor killings are again a cultural practice and not actually from Islam, forced marriage is against the sharia and we're not doing taqiyyah or whatever other Zionist/BJP/David Wood-type talking point you want to promote.

Im pretty clear on everything I post while our mess here is a dumpster fire of distractions and deflections. You are violating so many of your hadeeth in each post, yet cant seem to stop.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

@TempestOfTempo if you are actually a Muslim and not just pretending to be one online.... how many rakahs are in Maghrib and how do you know how many rakahs are in Maghrib- on what source, what authority, how do you know how many rakahs to pray in Maghrib? Or do you not pray salaat?

You cant answer the basic question regarding Aisha'a age or offer a defense of your faulty ositions... so your go-to pivot is to question my worship? There aint a hadeeth you wont violate is there?

 

[TempestOfTempo]

That's hilarious. Calls Islams prophet a p***phile and prays salat. Who does he pray to? Certainly not the one who sent the last Prophet (saw).

If Tempo is a Hindu it would make alot of sense.

More accusations which violate your own hadeeth. Since you and your buddies will stoop to any level (much akin to your "adversary" bubba sparkles) lets just get it out in the open...
You all defend the PROVEN faulty theological justification (hadeeth) for modern Muslims to engage in ped and child-r*pe activities. Just as some Jewish do with the talmud, you allow these man-made innovations to supersede authentic scriptural authority. There are "modern" Muslims using this a justification for child-r*pe and ped activity... there is no serious debate regarding that sad fact. And your pathetic justifications rest on the PROVEN faulty notions that Muhammed was a ped himself.

I'm clearly stating that its been proven by both hadeeth and chronologically scientific means that this is all based on a lie. Aisha was 17-19 when she married Muhammed. Therefore I am working to vindicate Muhammed's name from these false and damaging accusations while you strive to prove these harmful lies true... for what? Because you are weak lemmings, dependent on your hadeeth and fatwa security blankets to allow you to engage in that which has clearly been forbidden in Islam and is illegal everywhere else in the world? At this point Im going to have to surmise that its deeper than that... you all are likely either engaged in this behavior yourselves or know people who are and simply dont want the party to end.

News flash: the party's over... everyone who reads our comments outside of your bubble can see who you people are in very stark terms by what you defend.