Why did Jesus have to die? Isn't that just immoral?

[Haich]

Sure but Jesus insists that He is God... and that's why He was crucified.

Christians insist he's God. Jesus never claimed to be God.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Serveto

This is a really interesting question as it draws in so many others.

If Gods' relationship to Jesus is qualitatively the same as mine to my own father, our will is distinct, separate (and sometimes contrary!) then there is the sense of one person could be considered "sending" another.

To the degree that my will is united with my father, though separate in person the choice to "go" would be both of ours. This is why no real progress on the question at hand can be made whilst denying the Trinity.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Thank you for kind words.

You seem not to hold to "once saved always saved" doctrine. Faith + works. The Orthodox Christians beleive that way. It's fairly good. It's closer to the truth.

If a person does not believe that once you BELIEVE the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you have now become saved & “shall NEVER perish”, meaning you cannot perish spiritually in Hell eternally from that moment forward, it is because they are NOT SAVED.

 

[Bacsi]

I am unsure if it is linguistic acrobatics or genuine paradox.

Jesus is said, moreover, to be a priest in the order of Melchizedek, and when Abraham and Melchizadek were together, they shared bread and what was apparently a common Hebrew idiom for wine, the "blood of the grape." It's possible I missed it, of course, but I see no sacrificial animals present there, in that exchange. Bread and wine were also the principal ingredients of the Last Supper, though, even then, the idea of the paschal lamb of God, the Passover Seder, from the Old Testament, seems interlaced with the report and Jesus is identified with that lamb. It's a complex phenomenon. With that said, it's interesting to note that both Jesus and John the Baptist are said to have preached repentance -and, it seems, repentance alone- as well.

In theoretical and theological sense, everything is a paradox, more or less.

On a more practical level, it's much simpler than that. When Christians paint the cross, they depict a man on the cross. Not some abstract substance.

 

[Bacsi]

If a person does not believe that once you BELIEVE the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you have now become saved & “shall NEVER perish”, meaning you cannot perish spiritually in Hell eternally from that moment forward, it is because they are NOT SAVED.

This is exactly my point all along. This is the basis of Christian immorality. No responsibility of your own. Accepting information by faith is sufficient. Information of gruesome violent death of a fellow human...

 

[Serveto]

In theoretical and theological sense, everything is a paradox, more or less.

On a more practical level, it's much simpler than that. When Christians paint the cross, they depict a man on the cross. Not some abstract substance.

Speaking of paradox, I am not a defender of the dogma of the Trinity, neither do I necessarily deny it, but I think, when most (orthodox) Christians see Jesus depicted upon the cross, something comparable to this, the so called "shield of the Trinity," is in mind:

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[Bacsi]

@Serveto

This is a really interesting question as it draws in so many others.

If Gods' relationship to Jesus is qualitatively the same as mine to my own father, our will is distinct, separate (and sometimes contrary!) then there is the sense of one person could be considered "sending" another.

To the degree that my will is united with my father, though separate in person the choice to "go" would be both of ours. This is why no real progress on the question at hand can be made whilst denying the Trinity.

Big big words

Except for a handful of theologians, the majority of lay people understand religion in much simpler terms. God killed man. His blood washed my sins. I have to beleive it. Period.

 

[Bacsi]

I am not a defender of the dogma of the Trinity, neither do I necessarily deny it, but I think, when most (orthodox) Christians see Jesus depicted upon the cross, something comparable to this, the so called "shield of the Trinity," is in mind:

​

View attachment 11097​

Very good. I understand this level of abstractness in religion. Most people think in very concrete terms. When they see a man hanging on the cross, they see a dying and suffering man. It's what all the hyms are about. "Oh my Saviour was suffering and bleeding for me" etc.

 

[Bacsi]

No amount of religious theology can remove the main ideas. They are clear and strong. Jesus is man. God killed him as innocent sacrifice for the sins of mankind. His blood washed away the fault of all people.

Simple. Human sacrifice.

 

[Bacsi]

People who are in the know, such as those in Illuminaty/Freemasonry/etc, understand how religion works.

Central powerful ideas that speak directly to the subconscious with resulting actions. It's a technology of control and manipulation.

Central ideas are key.

Theology and abstractness and paradox and mistery etc. are noting but smokescreen. Camouflage. A kind of nice packaging, sugarcoat to try and hide the bitter venomous content.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Big big words

Except for a handful of theologians, the majority of lay people understand religion in much simpler terms. God killed man. His blood washed my sins. I have to beleive it. Period.

People refuse to understand ideas for a variety of reasons...

1: The ideas may be illogical and not worth understanding, in which case, no amount of explanation of the idea will help.

2: The ideas may be difficult and make our brains work too hard, in which case, greater learning or engagement with the issues may prove fruitful.

3: Or... The conclusions the ideas lead to challenge us, making us prefer to dismiss the idea as being illogical (see 1) - in which case nothing but a change of heart will lead to any further headway on the topic.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

No amount of religious theology can remove the main ideas. They are clear and strong. Jesus is man. God killed him as innocent sacrifice for the sins of mankind. His blood washed away the fault of all people.

Simple. Human sacrifice.

Addressing a spiritual question whilst rejecting the spirituality it grows from is like attempting calculus whilst rejecting arithmetic!

 

[Bacsi]

People refuse to understand ideas for a variety of reasons...

1: The ideas may be illogical and not worth understanding, in which case, no amount of explanation of the idea will help.

2: The ideas may be difficult and make our brains work too hard, in which case, greater learning or engagement with the issues may prove fruitful.

3: Or... The conclusions the ideas lead to challenge us, making us prefer to dismiss the idea as being illogical (see 1) - in which case nothing but a change of heart will lead to any further headway on the topic.

True. The list can be extended. Conformity. Fear. Etc.

Ideas are usually wrapped in ideas, which are in turn wrapped in more ideas. An idea can be made to look beautiful on the surface, but if you strip it down to its core essence, it can actually be ugly and destructive.

 

[Bacsi]

Addressing a spiritual question whilst rejecting the spirituality it grows from is like attempting calculus whilst rejecting arithmetic!

No rejecting spirituality. Washing away of sins by God is as spiritual as it can be. There are different levels of spirituality, like a stacking doll.

 

[Bacsi]

Jesus was no ordinary human but God himself.

And since humans don't know God and are deceived by the devil... so they sin and go to hell.

But because God atoned with His blood for our sins... we got a chance to stop sinning and not go to hell.

Do you understand what i'm saying to you ?

I do. And it's a wicked teaching.

 

[Bacsi]

Parents all over the world know how to trick their kids into doing what the parents want them to, but what the kids themselves don't have a particular desire of doing.

Eat this serial! No!

Solutions: add sugar and berries to make serial taste good. Promise ice-cream after finishing the bowl of serial as a reward. Threaten with spanking if food is not finished. Make them feel guilty by saying how much effort was spent to provide the food.

Etc etc etc

At the end, it's about serial in the child's stomach. That's all.

 

[rainerann]

No amount of religious theology can remove the main ideas. They are clear and strong. Jesus is man. God killed him as innocent sacrifice for the sins of mankind. His blood washed away the fault of all people.

Simple. Human sacrifice.

No humans killed him because of envy and greed. God just didn’t stop them or wage war against them because of this. So Jesus was blameless in every way including the refusal to defend himself with a sword when they wanted to kill him.

And instead of seeking vengeance for the injustice committed against him, he offers forgiveness and salvation and this is the meaning of the cross and why we recognize this. He was innocent. He did not commit a crime worthy of death. Him dying on the cross was an act of injustice. You make it sound like he climbed on a cross and yelled “look at me, look at what I’m doing for you”. In reality, he had no choice. He was arrested and a death sentence was manipulated so that some people could try to get rid of him.

And in all of these offenses committed against him, he still offers forgiveness and salvation to everyone including the people who wanted him put to death. So you see, his example on the cross is just as important as his other lessons on character. In fact, no one has been able to find real success in following Christ without recognizing the cross and choosing instead to just follow his teachings like Jesus only meant to be a life coach.

 

[Alanantic]

Remember, only Christians feel a need to be saved. They would have no need of that unless they were told or read it in their Bible that they needed it. Now, Enlightenment or Self-Realization; that's something else. Everyone needs that.

 

[Bacsi]

Remember, only Christians feel a need to be saved. They would have no need of that unless they were told or read it in their Bible that they needed it. Now, Enlightenment or Self-Realization; that's something else. Everyone needs that.

True

 

[rainerann]

Remember, only Christians feel a need to be saved. They would have no need of that unless they were told or read it in their Bible that they needed it. Now, Enlightenment or Self-Realization; that's something else. Everyone needs that.

Enlightenment and self realization only go so far and at a certain point it becomes a process of the ego trying to completely dissociate itself from the unconscious, or some other extreme because true self realization does seem to require recognizing where error comes from. Why do we make mistakes that hurt ourselves and other people? Why do we often change addictions rather than overcome them?

These questions that are common require a deep connection to a process of repentance that is close to impossible to achieve. This is why Christianity teaches salvation because what you are saying is impossible.

At some point, your own ego will get in your way of being able to achieve this goal. It’s only a matter of time.