Universal Basic Income

[Maes17]

Basic income for this basic bitch.
Yeah. I’m a simple man.

 

[Maes17]

Universal basic income will destroy the working middle class and most will become unproductive. I believe illegal immigration will become a huge problem in countries with UBI.

As long as that money is being trickled back into the economy, it should hold us up for the time being. What people choose to do with that advantage is up to them.

 

[rainerann]

I ask anyone who thinks UBI is a potential solution to read the following. The pandemic didn’t create the economic collapse. It only accelerated the inevitable collapse that was coming eventually. Printing more money has never once in history fixed an economic crisis. It only delays the inevitable.

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Printing currency without debt is one of the earlier arguments for why we don't need a federal reserve. The fed creates debt. They don't really create currency, so they are not the best way of determining whether a UBI would work or not.

The stimulus packages did help. However, they create vulnerability because of debt. Without debt, there is not the same vulnerability.

As far as the subject of creating additional currency. As the population grows, it would seem logical the amount of circulating currency grows as well.

What do you think?

 

[Todd]

Printing currency without debt is one of the earlier arguments for why we don't need a federal reserve. The fed creates debt. They don't really create currency, so they are not the best way of determining whether a UBI would work or not.

The stimulus packages did help. However, they create vulnerability because of debt. Without debt, there is not the same vulnerability.

As far as the subject of creating additional currency. As the population grows, it would seem logical the amount of circulating currency grows as well.

What do you think?

Printing money without creating debt will absolutely drive inflation sky high. If nobody is creating actual wealth (I.e. creating products and services of true value) the purchasing power of the currency will be useless.

Of course increasing currency relative to population growth is logical, but that’s completely different than printing money to fund UBI.

 

[rainerann]

Printing money without creating debt will absolutely drive inflation sky high. If nobody is creating actual wealth (I.e. creating products and services of true value) the purchasing power of the currency will be useless.

Of course increasing currency relative to population growth is logical, but that’s completely different than printing money to fund UBI.

Well, technically all of these things could be determined mathematically so that you avoided something like this. From the article I quoted, it would be about like 350 dollars maybe to be around 3% GDP when you consider, "The $250 allowance would grow the GDP by 0.79 percent and a $500-a-month payment would grow the GDP by 6.5 percent."

However, this amount is not based on creating currency either, so that would be a different variable to factor. I don't actually know how this money was raised at all, which is one of the reasons why I don't think something like this would work in our country and possibly creating currency isn't necessary if we were ever really able to find out how much money we would have if we cut military spending or something else.

The point is that creating currency or creating a UBI in some other way doesn't create inflation independently. The way that we are creating money right now with debt and without anything really serving as a way of predicting inflation is what is creating inflation.

Like every bank really creates money every time they approve a mortgage already because that money doesn't actually exist otherwise. So right now on an individual basis, we create money by indebting people to repay on a mortgage loan. This amount doesn't really have a control other than the interest rate, so housing prices keep going up overall.

In theory, we could take this amount and create it without debt, distribute it within a community, and this might even have a better effect on our economy because it could be better controlled. The end result would be that a larger number of people were able to have their economic stress alleviated than the one person who accepts the terms of a loan, which creates financial stress.

Both routes technically will create some degree of inflation over time. There is no way to avoid that. The only thing you can really do is look for a way to predict it with more accuracy and have a better way of controlling it.

Another variable would be social security. Like if doing this replaced social security and people were able to keep that money every month, the amount of increasing currency wouldn't need to increase as much either.

There are a lot of things that tip the scales in different directions, but something like this doesn't automatically create inflation. Printing money without control creates inflation, but that is what the whole field of data analysis and automation is about. Finding ways to avoid waste and increase efficiency, which is more or less what I'm talking about. An efficient UBI.

 

[elsbet]

We are in a massive recession, unemployment numbers have practically reached Great Depression levels, many of those jobs aren’t coming back and we are worried about the small amount of people who might not work if they are given a UBI? There are going to be less jobs, a smaller workforce is needed because there won’t be enough jobs for everyone. So how is this a problem?

I’ve worked with a lot of people on welfare.. even the ones that didn’t “work” still worked. They junked or braided hair out their homes or babysat or whatever. Off the books. If some people decided not to “work” I don’t see the big deal, more jobs for the rest of us. Allows some women to stay home and care for their kids, great considering how many childcare centers they are projecting will close their doors for good because of this. Great for all those people who think women should be home with their kids and that daycare is the root cause of societal ills..

I really don’t get the complaints here.

You think the virus will be the end of childcare, permanently?

 

[Todd]

Well, technically all of these things could be determined mathematically so that you avoided something like this. From the article I quoted, it would be about like 350 dollars maybe to be around 3% GDP when you consider, "The $250 allowance would grow the GDP by 0.79 percent and a $500-a-month payment would grow the GDP by 6.5 percent."

However, this amount is not based on creating currency either, so that would be a different variable to factor. I don't actually know how this money was raised at all, which is one of the reasons why I don't think something like this would work in our country and possibly creating currency isn't necessary if we were ever really able to find out how much money we would have if we cut military spending or something else.

The point is that creating currency or creating a UBI in some other way doesn't create inflation independently. The way that we are creating money right now with debt and without anything really serving as a way of predicting inflation is what is creating inflation.

Like every bank really creates money every time they approve a mortgage already because that money doesn't actually exist otherwise. So right now on an individual basis, we create money by indebting people to repay on a mortgage loan. This amount doesn't really have a control other than the interest rate, so housing prices keep going up overall.

In theory, we could take this amount and create it without debt, distribute it within a community, and this might even have a better effect on our economy because it could be better controlled. The end result would be that a larger number of people were able to have their economic stress alleviated than the one person who accepts the terms of a loan, which creates financial stress.

Both routes technically will create some degree of inflation over time. There is no way to avoid that. The only thing you can really do is look for a way to predict it with more accuracy and have a better way of controlling it.

Another variable would be social security. Like if doing this replaced social security and people were able to keep that money every month, the amount of increasing currency wouldn't need to increase as much either.

There are a lot of things that tip the scales in different directions, but something like this doesn't automatically create inflation. Printing money without control creates inflation, but that is what the whole field of data analysis and automation is about. Finding ways to avoid waste and increase efficiency, which is more or less what I'm talking about. An efficient UBI.

So basically you are talking about revamping the entire basis for the economy and how currency and debt works. In other words creating a new world order...

if you think that is going to happen without enslaving the world to TPTB, then you have a whole lot more faith in humanity than I do.

 

[Infinityloop]

So basically you are talking about revamping the entire basis for the economy and how currency and debt works. In other words creating a new world order...

And such actions, no matter what scale, are not how problems are solved, it's how problems turn into a bigger problems.
People should be asking how we even got here and what mistakes should we be avoiding, this is even in consideration of the elite who will only play us like puppets. The more aware we are of the root of the problem the more we can do to improve the situation, it's crazy that so many people (this forum included) just want to be handed a cheat-code-level type of "solution".
And under all situations past and present when people have demanded such things always end up in a worser situation.

 

[Infinityloop]

A form of it will have to exist in some form in order to deal with mass unemployment that is going to come with automation.

Which is already a big enough freakshow as it is, it's absolutely how insane the amount of people who have lost their jobs over the past few months. The job fight just gets harder for those at the lower rung of the job ladder as well.

 

[justjess]

You think the virus will be the end of childcare, permanently?

No, I don’t think it will be the end of childcare. I do think it will look a lot different on the other side of this. Many places won’t come back unless something changes in the immediate future, the ones that do will be in a position to charge even more because supply will be less then demand. Childcare is already too expensive for many people.

 

[elsbet]

No, I don’t think it will be the end of childcare. I do think it will look a lot different on the other side of this. Many places won’t come back unless something changes in the immediate future, the ones that do will be in a position to charge even more because supply will be less then demand. Childcare is already too expensive for many people.

It really is-- there has to be a high (likely, combined) income to offset the cost, if you have more than one kid. Even with one, it's still expensive for full time. But it's an expensive business. Parents have little choice, unless they have extended family stepping in to help.

For the owners, their liabilities will be increased, no doubt, with new safety measures imposed. Costs will be passed along to parents ... not much choice there.

Only thing that will remain the same is low, low wages for the employees.

Spoiler

 

[Cintra]

I am for it.

 

[justjess]

It really is-- there has to be a high (likely, combined) income to offset the cost, if you have more than one kid. Even with one, it's still expensive for full time. But it's an expensive business. Parents have little choice, unless they have extended family stepping in to help.

For the owners, their liabilities will be increased, no doubt, with new safety measures imposed. Costs will be passed along to parents ... not much choice there.

Only thing that will remain the same is low, low wages for the employees.

Spoiler

I agree 100%

Me and my husband end up working around each other to make things work because it’s just too much, with help from the teenage son in a pinch. It is far from the ideal situation and I’m really worried what happens come September cuz she does need to start preschool and it’s not looking to good right now.

It wouldn’t be the worst thing if they did implement some sort of stimulus that allowed a parent to be able to afford to stay home with the kids. Even if childcare was cheap and widely available I’d be nervous to send my toddler for the foreseeable future. I work in a school and it’s damn near impossible to contain the spread of germs in an environment over run with children.

 

[rainerann]

So basically you are talking about revamping the entire basis for the economy and how currency and debt works. In other words creating a new world order...

if you think that is going to happen without enslaving the world to TPTB, then you have a whole lot more faith in humanity than I do.

hmm, I guess we will have to see if something like my idea ever makes it to the table then. I doubt it because of how the federal reserve and debt is portrayed as being essential to the economy.

Quite frankly, we are already enslaved to the federal reserve. What I was suggesting actually has the potential to set us free from something like this rather than perpetuating the enslavement, but anything new will more than likely follow a final collapse of what tptb are building and have been building for a hundred years. Yes, I do believe that what they have built has the potential to collapse simply because it is a bad idea and not because it is intended to lead to something worse.

Honestly, I find what you are saying rather confusing. You seem to be suggesting that being enslaved is something that has not taken place.

It is more likely that an idea like this wouldn't be possible because the economy is already enslaved to tptb rather than it is being possible for what I'm saying to be the final nail that creates total enslavement. Like at what point do you see tptb becoming willing to create currency that is not backed by debt and how on earth do you make a connection between this and enslavement?

 

[rainerann]

@Todd

I can't seem to find the documentary I watched about things like this years ago, but it was heavily based on a book called Web of Debt that I have read as well. It goes over how our country has created alternative sources of currency throughout our history that was beneficial to the economy like using silver or greenbacks.

This history was what influenced me to be the most patriotic that I have ever been or will ever be toward my countries because it highlighted a different opportunity that existed. At this point, I don't think we can go back, so that is kind of where I combine something like this with the future of data analysis.

But there is a great misconception that I will still take away from learning about this that the economy is automatically controlled by the elite. This only seems to happen when every suggestion of change ends up being forced to make a comparison to something that was controlled by tbtp at one point and not really because the world revolves around these people. It doesn't.

This is why I made the suggestion that it would be nice to look at something like this without making comparisons to the past. There are also many things that exist that muddy the waters right now that make something clean and beneficial unlikely like the priority of our military budget right now.

We are basically looking at a collapse I think because there is no real way that I can see for our country to go back. If that happens and the idea of making a global version of the USSR is finally out of the way. Then, we are looking at being disseminated into smaller states at some point that will have to be rebuilt. Rebuilding on a smaller scale like this opens the door for good opportunities.

We could all be the size of Finland maybe and they were able to put this idea to the test and it didn't result in failure. It is only a failure when we muddy it with a whole lot of comparisons to the past. Anyways, maybe you would find this book interesting if you get a chance to read it. It is basically an American economic history book without the propaganda that you would normally get.

 

[Maes17]

You think the virus will be the end of childcare, permanently?

I know you’re asking justjess.

But I think the virus will affect businesses going forward. Businesses are learning to thrive with minimal employees.

Curbside pick ups etc. These are all going to possibly be new services going forward. Which trickles into all sectors of employment.

 

[Todd]

hmm, I guess we will have to see if something like my idea ever makes it to the table then. I doubt it because of how the federal reserve and debt is portrayed as being essential to the economy.

Quite frankly, we are already enslaved to the federal reserve. What I was suggesting actually has the potential to set us free from something like this rather than perpetuating the enslavement, but anything new will more than likely follow a final collapse of what tptb are building and have been building for a hundred years. Yes, I do believe that what they have built has the potential to collapse simply because it is a bad idea and not because it is intended to lead to something worse.

Honestly, I find what you are saying rather confusing. You seem to be suggesting that being enslaved is something that has not taken place.

It is more likely that an idea like this wouldn't be possible because the economy is already enslaved to tptb rather than it is being possible for what I'm saying to be the final nail that creates total enslavement. Like at what point do you see tptb becoming willing to create currency that is not backed by debt and how on earth do you make a connection between this and enslavement?

Oh don’t get me wrong the system has been set up for over 100 years to slowly enslave us. If UBI is implemented under the current system it will be the final blow that totally destroys the middle class and creates the the 5% haves the 95% have nots. Of course there are too many people in the world right now so between vaccinations, food shortages, and likely war I expect them to attempt to reduce the population significantly.

UBI proposals from either the dems or repubs under the current system will be part of that plan

 

[rainerann]

Oh don’t get me wrong the system has been set up for over 100 years to slowly enslave us. If UBI is implemented under the current system it will be the final blow that totally destroys the middle class and creates the the 5% haves the 95% have nots. Of course there are too many people in the world right now so between vaccinations, food shortages, and likely war I expect them to attempt to reduce the population significantly.

UBI proposals from either the dems or repubs under the current system will be part of that plan

oh I see what you’re saying. Yeah I’m taking much more of a futurist position. Although, I do think there is the potential for total collapse of their plan too because it requires trying to achieve too much control.

I’m sure you understand as a parent, that trying to control everything usually ends up making things more difficult than giving your child some freedom.

It really works with anything. Overwatering a plant won’t make it grow faster. Everything is about balance and freedom is always a required part of that balance.

That is kind of how I see this situation and so i don’t know that it will be that big of a deal to give people a ubi. This system isn’t going to live one way or the other anyway and not giving people a ubi at this point is not going to help salvage this system.

 

[Todd]

oh I see what you’re saying. Yeah I’m taking much more of a futurist position. Although, I do think there is the potential for total collapse of their plan too because it requires trying to achieve too much control.

I’m sure you understand as a parent, that trying to control everything usually ends up making things more difficult than giving your child some freedom.

It really works with anything. Overwatering a plant won’t make it grow faster. Everything is about balance and freedom is always a required part of that balance.

That is kind of how I see this situation and so i don’t know that it will be that big of a deal to give people a ubi. This system isn’t going to live one way or the other anyway and not giving people a ubi at this point is not going to help salvage this system.

Agreed. I don’t know if tptb will succeed and be able to realize their ultimate goal. If complete collapse comes is it possible we could rebuild something better? I doubt it unless there is some great spiritual revival and the majority of the population truly turn to and trust God.

Whoever controls technology will have power and we know that power in this world corrupts. After all that is the purpose of this temporary realm/age we live in...to show us the results of anything other than God being in control.

So who knows maybe UBI will be part of the reign of Christ when he returns?

 

[rainerann]

Agreed. I don’t know if tptb will succeed and be able to realize their ultimate goal. If complete collapse comes is it possible we could rebuild something better? I doubt it unless there is some great spiritual revival and the majority of the population truly turn to and trust God.

Whoever controls technology will have power and we know that power in this world corrupts. After all that is the purpose of this temporary realm/age we live in...to show us the results of anything other than God being in control.

So who knows maybe UBI will be part of the reign of Christ when he returns?

If I had posted this in the religious section, I would have made at least one comparison between a ubi and Leviticus 23:23

“When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the LORD your God.'"

ubi == gleanings?