Todd
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  • John 14:26 and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.
    P
    phipps
    "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad" (Matthew 12:30). God chose all the apostles and yet you've picked Paul out because He doesn't say what you want in the way He should to please you. "Every word of God is confirmed out of the mouth of two or three witnesses. I see a lot in Paul's writing not confirmed anywhere else in the Bible." Give me examples of this.
    P
    phipps
    We'll continue this tomorrow because I have to go to bed but it would be great to show examples of Paul's writings that are not confirmed elsewhere in the Bible. This is really Goodnight.
    Todd
    Todd
    I already started to tonight in other status posts. Maybe more tomorrow as I too am getting ready for bed. Goodnight!
    "I ask again, how many shepherds will the followers of Jesus have? Jesus says 'one'. Paul - and the religion founded on his teachings (and the rest of the Bible apart from Jesus' teachings) - says 'millions'. Who are you going to believe?" - Is 'Going to Church' Compatible with the Teachings of Jesus of Nazareth? JesusFamilies.org
    "But since Christ's time, and down to ours, we find a deviation of doctrine from the foundations laid by Christ.
    This deviation begins ...with that lover of teaching, Paul: and the wider Christianity extends, the more it deviates and appropriates the methods of that very external worship and dogmatism the denial of which was so positively expressed by Christ." Tolstoy - The Church and State 1891.
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    Todd
    Todd
    So how many times did Paul quote the words of Jesus? I only know of two specifically. Why would Jesus tell the apostles that the Holy Spirit would teach them by reminding them of what he said if his real intention was to teach Christianity through another that was not one of them?
    P
    phipps
    It doesn't matter how many times he quoted Christ, he preached Christ in his missionary work. Christ chose him, don't you get that? God would not choose someone who would have such enormous influence in Christianity who says anything against him. The Holy Spirit taught all the apostles including Paul and as you know we have their writings in the Bible to prove so. Not only Paul's.
    P
    phipps
    Like the apostles the Holy Spirit works in all of us to come to Christ and be submissive to His word. We are all admonished in the Bible to preach the word into all the world just like the apostles including Paul did. Read Mark 16. Paul himself said, "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30).
    “The most direct heirs of the Jewish-Christian groupings within earliest Christianity [i.e., the early Jerusalem church] regarded Paul as the great apostate, an arch enemy,” citing Epistula Petri 2.3; Clem. Hom. 17:18-19. (James D. G. Dunn, The Cambridge Companion to St. Paul (Cambridge University Press, 2003)
    "Paul does not know how to develop a hyperbaton, nor to conclude a sentence; and having to do with rude people, he has employed the conceptions, which, if, at the outset, he had not taken care to announce as spoken after the manner of men, would have shocked men of good sense". - Jerome in his Commentary on Galatians and Ephesians.
    Clearly any man can make claims for himself: but his claim is confirmed by another person’s attestation. One person writes the document, another signs it, a third attests the signature, and a fourth enters it in the records. No man is for himself both claimant and witness. If there is one that makes a false claim to be Christ, much more can there be one who professes that he is an apostle of Christ. -Tertullian
    "I must...approach this inquiry with uneasiness when I find one affirmed to be an apostle, of whom in the list of the apostles in the gospel I find no trace. So when I am told that Paul was subsequently promoted by our Lord, by now at rest in heaven, I find some lack of foresight in the fact that Christ did not know beforehand that he would have need of him" -Tertullian -- written in 207 A.D. in Against Marcion
    “This much is certain, that we have no theological right to set any sort of limits to the loving-kindness of God which has appeared in Jesus Christ. Our theological duty is to see and understand it as being still greater than we had seen before.”
    ― Karl Barth, The Humanity of God
    "One fundamental characteristic of Patristic apokatastasis is its Christocentrism. Another is—what at first might sound paradoxical—its orthodoxy. In fact, the main Patristic supporters of this theory, Origen and Nyssen, did support it in defense of Christian “orthodoxy,” against those which were regarded as the most dangerous heresies of their times" - Ilaria Ramelli -The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis
    I find it interesting that those who claim Jesus is God himself, are often the same people who believe Jesus was not able to actually accomplish what he came to do! Save the entire world! Luke 9:51-56
    Vixy
    Vixy
    I agree with you. I believe Jesus is his son and not God. If I am wrong, the lord will correct me. :)
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    The disciples initially thought Jesus should command fire to come down when the Samaritans rejected him. Jesus' response: " Ye know not what manner of Spirit ye are of, for the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives but to save them."
    Isaiah 26:9-10
    With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD
    God can do anything he wants: Matthew 19:26
    God will do anything he wants: Isaiah 46:9-11, Prov. 19:21, Daniel 4:35
    God wants to save the whole world: 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 John 2:2
    Todd
    Todd
    Isaiah 45:22
    Turn to me and be saved, all ye ends of the earth, for I am God and there is none else. I have sworn by myself and the word has gone out of my mouth and shall not return, that unto me, that every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall swear Surely shall one say, "In the Lord I have righteousness and strength".
    Red Sky at Morning
    Red Sky at Morning
    The simple point I was making @Todd is that dispute God's wishes, people can choose to reject Him.
    Todd
    Todd
    Not forever. John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me". The greek word translated as "draw" is "helkuo" and means "to drag".
    Isaac Cogdal, tells of a discussion in Lincoln’s office in 1859: 'Lincoln expressed himself in about these words: He did not nor could not believe in the endless punishment of any one of the human race. He understood punishment for sin to be a Bible doctrine; that the punishment was parental in its object, aim, and design, and intended for the good of the offender; hence it must cease when justice is satisfied.
    Lincoln wrote an essay about 1833 on predestinated universal salvation in criticism of the orthodox doctrine of endless punishment. Lincoln's conviction that God would restore the whole of creation as the outcome of Christ's atonement would have been in itself a bar to membership in the Springfield church he attended. The Almost Chosen People” by William J. Wolf (Doubleday & Company Inc, 1959)
    the scholarly consensus is the word "eternal" is a qualitative rather than a quantitative term. But more importantly, Universalists don't "get around" the biblical texts about eternal punishment. Universalists read those texts just like traditionalists do. But what universalists won't do is allow those texts to trump other texts that point to the reconciliation of "all things".
    “All men are Christ’s, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some and the rest not. For how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all?” — Clement of Alexandria
    "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future."
    -Martin Luther
    I think the internet has ruined the art of discussion. It's nearly impossible to discuss something without it becoming a pissing match of who is right and who is wrong. (I'm preaching to myself a little bit here also.)
    L
    Lurker
    I would love to discuss this with you, but someone is wrong on the internet. I must go set them straight. :)
    free2018
    free2018
    That's the bad thing about Internet. We don't know how to debate anymore. We rarely see critical thinking on the Net. A lot of groupthink on the net.
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