Catholicism vs Protestantism

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The faith vs works debate has been a long-standing source of misunderstanding between Protestants and Catholics. I certainly believe that we are saved into good works, just as the fruit of the spirit outworks into changed attitudes and actions. Where some Protestants get it wrong is that we were saved not just to inherit eternal life but to be Jesus’s hands and feet in this earth. Where some Catholics (appear) to get it wrong is in trusting to sacramentalism to accomplish what only faith can - justification and redemption.

This analogy may (or may not) be helpful, but it helped me anyway:

Scientists have often squabbled over whether light is a wave or a particle.

Can it possibly be both? Can it be both at the same time?


https://blog.anton-paar.com/what-is-light-a-particle-or-a-wave/

Does the nature of faith in the one who is the "Light of the World" have anything in common with this property of the first thing He spoke into being?

Lifht exists as a wave because it exists as a particle. Faith is apparent in actions because it is first a decision of the heart in response to the prompting of the Holy Spirit to trust in the Gospel. Because a man is born again, he acts.
So from your perspective Catholics get it wrong with the over emphasis on sacramentalism, that it is those that save you and not faith itself. I agree with that. However, I don’t think that mistake is harmful as the Protestant error that good,works should be eschewed, because they aren’t salvific. On the contrary, they are a nessessary component of faith, the salvific element, although not the central or foundational component.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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So from your perspective Catholics get it wrong with the over emphasis on sacramentalism, that it is those that save you and not faith itself. I agree with that. However, I don’t think that mistake is harmful as the Protestant error that good,works should be eschewed, because they aren’t salvific. On the contrary, they are a nessessary component of faith, the salvific element, although not the central or foundational component.
Insofar as Protestants devalue works, they do their own sanctification a disservice. Faith relates to new birth and salvation, works (fruit) relate to rewards Good works are the external evidence of living faith, but the unsaved may also endeavour to attain good works, whilst not putting their faith in the atoning work of Jesus on the Cross. It is perhaps this latter group who come one day saying “have we not done many works in your name…”
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I found this one interesting - from the Jesuit Douay-Reims version:

St Matthew 6:11 DRC1752
Give us this day our supersubstantial bread.

The bold word was perhaps intended to support the case for transubstantiation. The problem in that “daily” has a much more down-to-earth meaning!!

 

phipps

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Most protestantism is dead. There is not much difference between Catholicism and protestantism any more. The Catholic Church teaches that the guide to heaven consists of the Bible and nearly two thousand years of church tradition. “We find the truths revealed by God in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. … Both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are the inspired word of God, and both are forms of divine revelation.”  John A. Hardon, S.J., The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism (Garden City, NY: Image Books, 1981), p. 37.

Sadly this is true of most of protestantism. They've added man made doctrine and tradition to God's Word. “Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. … Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition” (Mark 7:7-9).

God promised to rid His church of unscriptural traditions. “Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.” “Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up” (Matthew 15:6, 13).

We cannot depend upon the traditions of men. They are often an erring guide. And not surprisingly so. Humans are erring. Even while trying our best, we make mistakes of mammoth proportion.

For centuries Protestant churches have claimed that Catholicism follows many unscriptural traditions. If you are a Catholic, this question is doubly important. You love God and desire to please Him. But fellow believers say that many of your church’s doctrines are not found in the Bible. Your pope also acknowledges that this is a serious issue that needs study. And he says it must be resolved if we are to answer Jesus’ prayer for unity among Christians.

The protestant reformers were anti papacy and anti catholic. They called out the papacy and courageously called it the little horn power of Daniel 7 and the first beast of Revelation 13 and the Antichrist. But today most of protestantism is silent. In fact they have joined hands with the Catholic church through the ecumenical movement. Religious unity, or ecumenism, is just another movement toward the establishment of Babylon, who will eventually persecute those who do not conform themselves to her. Ecumenism is a movement towards supremacy of the Papacy—the most violent religious body of all time.

God wants us to identify the Antichrist and to be acquainted with its sinister workings, so that we don’t participate in its crimes against God. He knows that many have no idea how wide and deep the Antichrist system works today. That’s why He has given us prophecy in the Bible. With the Word, we can inform ourselves and be aware and principled about what we believe and do.
 

Maldarker

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If salvation is works then the thief on the cross with JESUS won't have been able to be saved because its not like he got down from the cross & started to feed the sick poor etc. that comes out of the faith of belief your works not dependent on it for salvation but fruits of it.
 

130713wdydi

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If salvation is works then the thief on the cross with JESUS won't have been able to be saved because its not like he got down from the cross & started to feed the sick poor etc. that comes out of the faith of belief your works not dependent on it for salvation but fruits of it.
The thief's case was an exceptional one. It cannot be used to derive conclusions, only to gain insight. Not everyone gets to hear from Jesus himself that they will be with Him in paradise, u'know? Otherwise, the thief can be used to disprove:
  • The role of baptism in salvation. ( I can just repent and trust that my daily bath is more than enough to make me clean)
  • The need to be part of the Church instituted by Christ. (So everyone can be by themselves, not part of His body and still be saved. That's what the gnostics did...)
  • etc, cuz I've run out of ideas for now...
 

hansgruber

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The thief's case was an exceptional one. It cannot be used to derive conclusions, only to gain insight. Not everyone gets to hear from Jesus himself that they will be with Him in paradise, u'know? Otherwise, the thief can be used to disprove:
  • The role of baptism in salvation. ( I can just repent and trust that my daily bath is more than enough to make me clean)
  • The need to be part of the Church instituted by Christ. (So everyone can be by themselves, not part of His body and still be saved. That's what the gnostics did...)
  • etc, cuz I've run out of ideas for now...
Most protestants don't believe baptism is necessary for salvation or that being a formal part of the church is necessary for salvation either. The thief on the cross is a good example showing that none of that is required for salvation. It is through faith in Christ that we are saved. Everything else flows out of that. The thief on the cross was not exceptional. We are all like the thieves on the cross. We can either choose to put our faith in Christ or we can reject Him like the other thief chose to do.
 

phipps

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Most protestants don't believe baptism is necessary for salvation or that being a formal part of the church is necessary for salvation either. The thief on the cross is a good example showing that none of that is required for salvation. It is through faith in Christ that we are saved. Everything else flows out of that. The thief on the cross was not exceptional. We are all like the thieves on the cross. We can either choose to put our faith in Christ or we can reject Him like the other thief chose to do.
You need baptism to be saved according to the Bible. Not only was Jesus baptized as an example to us, but He also strongly admonished His people to be baptized and to baptize others. In one of Jesus' last conversations before He ascended into heaven, He told his friends to “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.” (Matthew 28:19-20).

Christ said, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized, will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:15-16).

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit...ye are the body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13, 27).

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life...Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin" (Romans 6:3-6).

The thief on the cross is the exception because he could not get down after he accepted Christ and be baptised. Most people are not in that situation. Jesus will judge us on our own individual situations but most Christians should be baptised or they won't be saved.

"Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

According to Jesus, baptism is essential for salvation. Baptism is mentioned over 100 times in the New Testament. It should not be treated as non-essential. At conversion, the change in a person is so radical and the turning point so crucial in a life that Jesus said the event must be made official by the great ceremony of baptism. To demonstrate its importance, He Himself, was baptised. Then he included baptism as part of His great commission to his church (Matthew 28:18-20).

If any church teaches that baptism is not necessary for salvation, its teaching is the complete opposite of Christ's teachings on the subject and is therefore false.
 
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130713wdydi

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Most protestants don't believe baptism is necessary for salvation or that being a formal part of the church is necessary for salvation either. The thief on the cross is a good example showing that none of that is required for salvation. It is through faith in Christ that we are saved. Everything else flows out of that. The thief on the cross was not exceptional. We are all like the thieves on the cross. We can either choose to put our faith in Christ or we can reject Him like the other thief chose to do.
If you put your faith in Christ, it should go all the way. When you trust someone, won't you listen to and follow whatever that person says? Jesus did not painstakingly teach his disciples just so that people born generations later can do what THEY think is right.

"Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit;" (John 3: 5)
Do you trust Him?

"So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it." (Matthew 16:18)
Jesus built his community on ONE ROCK. Not on several pebbles. Do you trust Him?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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"Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit;" (John 3: 5)
Do you trust Him?
Context -

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

“Born of water” natural birth, “born of the Spirit” - second birth - ie born again.
 
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Context -

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

“Born of water” natural birth, “born of the Spirit” - second birth - ie born again.
✅
Nice!


:D

Water birth aka mother's water - every alive breathing human individual goes through by design

born of Spirit - Temet Nosce


Which human being does literally Knows ThySelf in this day and age? :cool:



Edit(Add):-
:D
Talked about it already, here, @HansConsciousness 's Post - https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/does-god-have-a-church.7429/post-482488
 
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Maldarker

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If you put your faith in Christ, it should go all the way. When you trust someone, won't you listen to and follow whatever that person says? Jesus did not painstakingly teach his disciples just so that people born generations later can do what THEY think is right.

"Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit;" (John 3: 5)
Do you trust Him?

"So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it." (Matthew 16:18)
Jesus built his community on ONE ROCK. Not on several pebbles. Do you trust Him?
Do you? You think that by doing this good deed or that your golden? really how many of your deeds take care of a lustful thought etc. Kick fight scream that it isn't good enough GOD the way you planned it I have to add myslef to the equation guess what kind of narcassictic thinking very self centered that is kind of the pride getting in the way not?
 

phipps

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Many Christians sadly have been taught that baptism is not necessary and they are taught that the thief on the cross is the example. Yet after the thief on the cross died we read about thousands of Christians being baptised in the book of Acts alone. The apostle Paul got baptised three days after his meeting with Christ on the Damascus road. If baptism was unnecessary why would the Christians in the book of Acts continue baptising new Christians as Christ demanded them to.

Why would Jesus do something and even command His disciples to baptise people in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit only for it to become unnecessary later?

Romans 6:3-4 says, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Colossians 2:12,
"buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Baptism is the Christian’s figurative re-enactment of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection.

Salvation is a free gift of God and we are saved by grace through faith. The Bible is very clear about that. However there are thing we have to do that prove we are saved and baptism is one of those things. Baptism symbolizes salvation. The physical act of baptism isn’t what changes a person though. It’s the Holy Spirit’s work that makes the difference.

Baptisms are joyful events. Each believer who gets baptised believes in the good news they heard that Jesus is the Son of God and the long awaited Messiah. They will have confessed their sins and given up their own desires to follow Him. And they got baptised as a result of their repentance.
 

phipps

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Protestantism should be about doing God's will alone. It should be about sola scriptura unlike Catholicism which mixes man made doctrine, paganism and the Word of God that it picks and chooses. Although individual Christians within each denomination may be walking according to all the light they have received, Protestantism itself, as a whole, is no longer what it used to be. Many of the churches reject biblical truth and choose to believe in man made doctrine just like Catholicism.

"The man who thinks he can be a Protestant and yet reject the Bible or some portion of it, is making a profound mistake…true Protestantism cannot only be anti-Catholic…it must also be anti-modernist, anti-evolutionist, and against every evil that is sapping the life of the Christian churches of today. At the same time it must be in favor of every good thing—prayer, Bible study, and all that is meant by Christian service. That is the Protestantism that is so sorely needed." Arthur S. Maxwell, Protestantism Imperiled (Warburton, Australia: SIGNS Publishing): 5.
 

130713wdydi

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Do you? You think that by doing this good deed or that your golden? really how many of your deeds take care of a lustful thought etc. Kick fight scream that it isn't good enough GOD the way you planned it I have to add myslef to the equation guess what kind of narcassictic thinking very self centered that is kind of the pride getting in the way not?
What I do or don't do is between me and my Lord. Whenever I do good, heaven rejoices and whenever I stray away, heaven weeps. But what is the reference point for me to know whether what I'm doing is good in the eyes of the Lord? It is His teachings through His apostles because unfortunately, I wasn't born during His lifetime.
 

130713wdydi

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Context -

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

“Born of water” natural birth, “born of the Spirit” - second birth - ie born again.
So are you saying there are people not born of 'water' for our Lord to make that statement?
Take a moment and think thru every birth related sentence in the Bible. It is either described as 'flesh from flesh' or 'blood from blood'. So the question arises why would Jesus suddenly use terminologies that would be unrecognizable to the population of His time and make things unnecessarily complicated. When He said water, He said water. His own baptism has a detailed description of Him rising from the water and then the Holy Spirit entering Him.
 

A Freeman

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If salvation is works then the thief on the cross with JESUS won't have been able to be saved because its not like he got down from the cross & started to feed the sick poor etc. that comes out of the faith of belief your works not dependent on it for salvation but fruits of it.
Please consider for a moment that the thief on the cross next to Jesus did have another opportunity to do good works...in his next human lifetime and every other one since then.

Jesus said "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in PARADISE" (Luke 23:43).

Please note well Jesus did NOT say to the thief that he would be with him in heaven, or that the thief was "saved" after a moment of reflection when facing the end of that human life. Has anyone actually made it to heaven? Not according to Jesus.

John 3:13
AND NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of Man which is from heaven.

For any who may mistakenly believe that heaven and paradise are interchangeable terms, please consider that three days and three nights after the crucifixion, the resurrected Jesus plainly stated He had not yet ascended to His Father, Who art in heaven ( Matt. 6:9).

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Clearly paradise and heaven are two different places. Paradise is where each of us receive our "life review" at the end of each human lifetime, before having all the evil we've done erased, so that we're sent back here with only the good (works) we've accumulated during all of our previous lifetimes. That way, each soul (spirit-Being) is in the exact place they have earned the right to be, in eternal time.

There is no such thing as faith without works, so anyone claiming they can do whatever evil they wish, and then ask for forgiveness at the last moment, is only bringing evil and destruction upon themselves (
Gal. 6:7).

James 2:17-26

2:17 Even so FAITH, if it hath not WORKS, is DEAD, being alone.
2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will SHOW thee my faith BY my works.
2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils (liars) also believe, and tremble.
2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain (worthless) man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD?
2:21 Was not our father justified by WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar (and God made him your example - Sura 16:123; 60:4)?
2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS was faith (trust in God) MADE PERFECT?
2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed ONLY God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.
2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.

We were created and sent here to learn to DO GOOD WORKS (Eph. 2:10). And it is by our works that we all will be judged.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.

Revelation 20:1-15
20:12 And I saw the "Dead", small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another Book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life: and the "Dead" were judged out of those things which were written in the Books, according to their works.
20:13 And the "sea" gave up the "Dead" which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the "Lake of Fire". This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the "Lake of Fire".

"Good works" are NOT what everyone imagines in their own minds to be good (Deut. 12:8); good (Godly) works are what God says is holy, just and good in His Perfect Law, containing His Statutes, His Judgments and His Commandments..

Deuteronomy 30:12-15
30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the "I AM" thy God, to walk in His Ways, and to keep His Commandments and His Statutes and His Judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the "I AM" thy God shall bless thee in the land where thou goest to possess it.
30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, where thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
30:20 That thou mayest love the "I AM" thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey His voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto Him: for He [is] thy Life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the "I AM" sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob/Israel, to give them.

Idolatrous Roman Catholicism and her harlot daughters (Protestantism) do not teach nor keep God's Law, which should leave no doubt that choosing between one or the other is a false dichotomy, as both lead to The Fire. We MUST come out of the churches with their man-made doctrines, and learn to obey God only (Acts 5:29).

That is The Way. There is no other (Matt. 7:13-14).
 
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A Freeman

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Many Christians sadly have been taught that baptism is not necessary and they are taught that the thief on the cross is the example. Yet after the thief on the cross died we read about thousands of Christians being baptised in the book of Acts alone. The apostle Paul got baptised three days after his meeting with Christ on the Damascus road. If baptism was unnecessary why would the Christians in the book of Acts continue baptising new Christians as Christ demanded them to.

Why would Jesus do something and even command His disciples to baptise people in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit only for it to become unnecessary later?

Romans 6:3-4 says, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

Colossians 2:12,
"buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Baptism is the Christian’s figurative re-enactment of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection.

Salvation is a free gift of God and we are saved by grace through faith. The Bible is very clear about that. However there are thing we have to do that prove we are saved and baptism is one of those things. Baptism symbolizes salvation. The physical act of baptism isn’t what changes a person though. It’s the Holy Spirit’s work that makes the difference.

Baptisms are joyful events. Each believer who gets baptised believes in the good news they heard that Jesus is the Son of God and the long awaited Messiah. They will have confessed their sins and given up their own desires to follow Him. And they got baptised as a result of their repentance.
Jesus never baptized anyone with water, nor did He command His Disciples to baptize in any name other than in the name of the "Saviour".

John 4:1-2
4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the politicians had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

It was the RCC that later and very obviously added the "trinitarian" wording to Matthew 28:19, just as they did in 1 John 5:7. And in both cases they were caught red-handed, as previous manuscripts reveal the additions, as do the Scriptures themselves. NONE of the disciples nor any of the apostles baptized in the name of "the Father, Son and Holy Spirit". They all instead, without exception, baptized in the name of Jesus, which means "YHWH Saves".


Christ came here in the body of Jesus 2000 years ago to baptize with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and [with] fire:

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire:

Water puts out fire, which is what the churches have been trying to do for centuries, with their made-up rites, rituals, doctrines and "sacraments".
 
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