How Can God Die? - David Wood

[floss]

If this doesn't clear it up for the muslims, I don't know what will.

 

[manama]

And then goes ahead and misinterprets a verse by saying that God is in the fire and around it even though the one at the fire means Moses and those around it means the angels who were conveying the message. And then he goes ahead and says God entered into the fire and spoke from within it even though God never did that as he remains on his throne in heavens and the fire/noor was just a way to get Moses to that place.
And then he goes ahead and compares the nature of the scripture and God himself to a book. damn thats sad

 

[Forever Light]

God is Omnipresent.

Jeremiah
23:23 [Am] I a God at hand, saith the "I AM", and not a God afar off?
23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the "I AM". Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the "I AM".

John
14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The Words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works.
14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Sura
6:102. That is "I AM", your Lord! There is no god but He, the Creator of all things: then worship ye Him: and He hath power to dispose of all affairs.
6:103. No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.

John
1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only incarnated Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [Him].

Colossians
1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
1:16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for him:
1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
1:18 And he is the head of the body, the community: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

2 Peter
3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found by Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the Wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles (letters), speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,

Psalm
110:1 <A Psalm of David.> The "I AM" said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
110:2 The "I AM" shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
110:3 Thy people [shall be] willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the Morning (Star): thou hast the dew of thy youth.
110:4 The "I AM" hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

1 John
4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and His love is perfected in us.

1 Corinthians
15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
15:27 For He hath put all things under his feet. But when He saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him.
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized from the "dead", if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized from the "dead" [into Life]?
15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I [take up my cross and] die daily [to "Self"].

Sura
2:255. The "I AM" - (YHWH) (Allah). There is no god but He,- the Living, the Self-Existing - (YHWH in Hebrew - "I AM" in English), Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on Earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His Knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the Earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is The Most High, The Supreme (in Glory).

3:1. A. L. M. (Almighty. Loving. Merciful.)
3:2. Allah (God). There is no God but He,- the Living, the Self-Existing (YHWH - "I AM"), Eternal.
3:3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it and He sent down The Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of Judgment between right and wrong).

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

If this doesn't clear it up for the muslims, I don't know what will.

Actually, David was very clear here. I know there is a line that tries to dismiss what he says before his information is considered, but for those of a more open minded view, it is worth considering the point he is making...

He is not proving that God "did" die in the person of Jesus, but he is clarifying and making the point that the Muslim claim that this belief is illogical is in itself questionable (using Islamic logic to reinforce his conclusions).

 

[Kung Fu]

Bring me a legitimate Bible scholar not this cross dresser and I'll have a listen.

On another note if God dies then He ceases to be God. If you believe in logic and rational thought you would know that if God is immortal He than cannot be mortal.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Bring me a legitimate Bible scholar not this cross dresser and I'll have a listen.

On another note if God dies then He ceases to be God. If you believe in logic and rational thought you would know that if God is immortal He than cannot be mortal.

Your arguments may be perfectly sound regardless of your liking for fancy dress ;-)

I take it from your reply you didn't watch David's clip?

 

[Kung Fu]

Your arguments may be perfectly sound regardless of your liking for fancy dress ;-)

I take it from your reply you didn't watch David's clip?

I can't watch videos at the moment but even if I could I wouldn't listen to a guy that needs the internet during live debates lol.

Also, we can use our brains and through logical deduction we can conclude that man dies and therefore if man dies he can't then be God.

 

[Daciple]

Is the Quran the Word of God?

 

[Kung Fu]

Is the Quran the Word of God?

What does the Quran have to do with God dying?

 

[Daciple]

Why cant you answer the simple question bro? Is the Quran the Word of God? I am going to try really hard to have a civil conversation with you my man, can we please try?

 

[Kung Fu]

Why cant you answer the simple question bro? Is the Quran the Word of God? I am going to try really hard to have a civil conversation with you my man, can we please try?

What's written down in the Quran, I would say is the Word of God, yes. Of course, we can.

 

[Daciple]

Ok great so you believe that the Quran is the Word of God, we have established this. Do you believe that the Quran what is written down in the Book, the Word of God, is Eternal?

 

[manama]

Ok great so you believe that the Quran is the Word of God, we have established this. Do you believe that the Quran what is written down in the Book, the Word of God, is Eternal?

We don't believe in the book the way you do. Quran is eternal till the day of judgement and that means that even if you burn physical copies of the Quran, more will come forward and Quran is safe inside the hearts of the believers. Burn every copy of the quran in the entire planet and yet more copies will come forward in the exact same way without any difference from the original because most muslims know Quran by heart. Even little kids can recite many chapters word to word. Thats how perfectly God has protected the Quran, It isn't the same with other scriptures who WILL get forgotten over time as many of those no longer even have their original forms and languages.
What we got is infact the copies of the Quran like we call it cuz the original is in heaven alongside the written destiny of the world and everything in it, guarded by the angel who is also responsible for the blowing of the trumpet when its time for this world to end.

You CAN NOT compare the word of God or his Prophets to him. God is superior to everything. God is not a glued book, God is not a human. He is not bounded by the laws he himself created or he wouldn't be God.

He is not proving that God "did" die in the person of Jesus, but he is clarifying and making the point that the Muslim claim that this belief is illogical is in itself questionable (using Islamic logic to reinforce his conclusions).

"Islamic logic"? The verse talks about Moses being blessed and the angels being blessed and he literally called that part to be about God. That guy needs to stick to Christian logic only tbh

 

[Daciple]

We don't believe in the book the way you do. Quran is eternal till the day of judgement and that means that even if you burn physical copies of the Quran, more will come forward and Quran is safe inside the hearts of the believers. Burn every copy of the quran in the entire planet and yet more copies will come forward in the exact same way without any difference from the original because most muslims know Quran by heart. Even little kids can recite many chapters word to word. Thats how perfectly God has protected the Quran, It isn't the same with other scriptures who WILL get forgotten over time as many of those no longer even have their original forms and languages.
What we got is infact the copies of the Quran like we call it cuz the original is in heaven alongside the written destiny of the world and everything in it, guarded by the angel who is also responsible for the blowing of the trumpet when its time for this world to end.

Ok so you believe that the Word of God is Eternal correct? Therefore even if every single Quran was burned and lets say every believer in Islam, every single Muslim died all at once, regardless of there being a Physical Book or a Person that can recite it, that is not going to stop the Word of God from still being Eternal, from still being in Heaven correct?

 

[Kung Fu]

Ok great so you believe that the Quran is the Word of God, we have established this. Do you believe that the Quran what is written down in the Book, the Word of God, is Eternal?

LOL. I've heard this argument multiple times. I wasn't born yesterday my friend. But I'll play your game. I wouldn't be able to tell you if it's Eternal or not because we as Muslims know that certain laws that God prescribes to his followers have changed over time. The core message stays the same which is your God is One and only He is to be worshiped and relied upon and is this message which is of utmost importance. However, the little details change from generation to generation. Just take a look at how much has changed in terms of daily practice from just the time of Abraham(pbuh) to now let alone from the time of Adam(pbuh).

 

[Artful Revealer]

And then goes ahead and misinterprets a verse by saying that God is in the fire and around it even though the one at the fire means Moses and those around it means the angels who were conveying the message. And then he goes ahead and says God entered into the fire and spoke from within it even though God never did that as he remains on his throne in heavens and the fire/noor was just a way to get Moses to that place.
And then he goes ahead and compares the nature of the scripture and God himself to a book. damn thats sad

So Allah did not manifest in this realm (enter his creation) to Moses? It was not Allah's voice in the fire even though the voice says "I am Allah"?

Here's the level of your rebuttal:

Moses said to that voice in the fire speaking to him: "That is Allah". A companion replied: "That's not Allah, that's a burning bush." Moses face-palms.

Bring me a legitimate Bible scholar not this cross dresser and I'll have a listen.

If I remember correctly, the only time Wood cross-dressed is when he was imitating Muhammad.

On another note if God dies then He ceases to be God. If you believe in logic and rational thought you would know that if God is immortal He than cannot be mortal.

Trinity 101: God is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Even if the Son is dead, the Father and Holy Spirit are not. But the Son isn't dead, he lives (was raised), ergo immortal. In neither instance does this infringe upon the laws of logic.

LOL. I've heard this argument multiple times. I wasn't born yesterday my friend. But I'll play your game. I wouldn't be able to tell you if it's Eternal or not because we as Muslims know that certain laws that God prescribes to his followers have changed over time. The core message stays the same which is your God is One and only He is to be worshiped and relied upon and is this message which is of utmost importance. However, the little details change from generation to generation. Just take a look at how much has changed in terms of daily practice from just the time of Abraham(pbuh) to now let alone from the time of Adam(pbuh).

You're not arguing the point. The Quran would still be there if every book, copy or Muslim who can recite it was dead. This implies that the Quran can "die" here in this realm, yet continue to exist with God.

 

[Haich]

This guy is your reference point for Islam?

 

[Haich]

At least Muslims here do the right thing by using Christian accredited sources, but to use David Wood to discuss matters of Islam is just ridiculous and shows there's no attempt to understand Islam for what it is.

 

[Kung Fu]

If I remember correctly, the only time Wood cross-dressed is when he was imitating Muhammad.

A grown man dressed as a woman and put it up on the internet for every one to see just to try to get the point across in which he believes that Muhammad(pbuh) also cross-dressed. He either secretly likes cross-dressing and just used an excuse for him to do so or he's a clown. Anyway you look it he looks like a fool.

Trinity 101: God is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Even if the Son is dead, the Father and Holy Spirit are not. But the Son isn't dead, he lives (was raised), ergo immortal. In neither instance does this infringe upon the laws of logic.

If the Father and the Ghost are not dead but the Son is logic would dictate that they are three separate entities. If the Son isn't dead and is immortal than he never died but you claim he did die which would then very much infringe on the laws of logic.

You're not arguing the point. The Quran would still be there if every book, copy or Muslim who can recite it was dead. This implies that the Quran can "die" here in this realm, yet continue to exist with God.

Okay, what's the main point that you or Dac are trying to get across? Give me a conclusion and we can work on it from there.

 

[Daciple]

The core message stays the same which is your God is One and only He is to be worshiped and relied upon and is this message which is of utmost importance.

So I guess we have 2 different streams of thought amongst the Muslims here, you I suppose are denying that the Word of God is Eternal or dont know if can be, which seems antithetical to the entire idea of an Eternal God and His Word, and then we have manama who seems to understand the Truth, which is that regardless if the Physical Medium in which the Word of God is expressed to us in this Material World, even if all parts of that Physical Medium is destroyed the Word of God, the Quran in Islam still exists, and it Eternal.

The argument is then that the Word of God, is God and thus holds the same attributes as God in Christianity:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Then the Word was made to become Physical in the same manner as is the Quran that was in Heaven was brought down and made Physical in the Quran and now the hearts of the believers.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

We know in the Quran that God can do anything, we also know that God in the Quran has entered into creation expressed to us in the Quran by the story of Moses and the Burning Bush.

20:12 (Asad) Verily, I am thy Sustainer! Take off, then, thy sandals! Behold, thou art in the twice hallowed valley,

79:16 (Asad) Lo! His Sustainer called out to him in the twice-hallowed valley:

So then we see a parallel in Christianity that the Word of God, who is God, entered into Creation and took upon the Physical Manifestation of Flesh in Jesus Christ.

Just as the Quran can be found in the Physical World here, and also is found in Heaven, so too is God found in both the Physical realm in Christ and in Heaven. And just as we can destroy the Physical aspect of the Quran by burning every physical book, or kill off every Muslim, it stands in Islam that the Word of God would remain Eternal in Heaven.

The same ideology is expressed in Christianity, that although the Physical aspect of God that was manifested on Earth in Christ, His Physical Body was destroyed on the Cross this didnt stop Him from being Eternal.

Do I expect you to agree that Jesus died no, but its a parallel that SHOULD, if one was intellectually honest, allow one to understand the concepts of how Jesus could die physically be still remain Eternal.

In Islam God entered Creation, in Islam the Word of God is both Physical in the Book and hearts of believers and is Eternal and in Heaven at the same time. In Christianity God entered Creation as Christ, and He being the Word even tho the Physical Aspect of Christ was destroyed on the Cross didnt stop Him from being Eternal...