The "Critical Text" Criticized

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#1
So many times the question of the authenticity of the Bible seems to come up in these forums.

From people feeling that an original, more gnostic Christianity has been whitewashed and moved away from, to others who feel that certain important texts have been removed by the powers that be.

What of the "Book of Barnabas", the woman caught in the act of adultery, the ending of the Gospel of Mark?

Which texts can we really rely on? Do we need to stick with the KJV or ditch it for Bibles based on the Revised Version?

When I was growing up, and growing in the faith I had paraphrases with plenty of pictures in. At university, I had "The Message", the Good News Bible, the Amplified Bible, the NKJV and the NIV.

After a while I started to notice the odd verse where the end was missing where I had expected something more. Sometimes there would be a gap where a whole verse was gone!

What was going on? Why so much difference? It turned out much of the controversy turned on which manuscripts were considered "oldest and best".

Before you think this is a typical "KJV only" thread, I need to say that I grew in the faith and understood the Gospel from versions that contain phrases as incongruous as "as above, so below" in the Lords Prayer (the message), "woe to you drunken bums" (the Living Bible or were more notable for their artwork than their text! (The Good News Bible). With all their faults, I could still see the big picture. The problem came in getting into the fine detail...

426349b67c34f2058d237657d86fa214--good-news-bible-jesus-teachings.jpg

Prompted by questions from @Kung Fu and @Etagloc I made it my business to look into the grounds for their questions and doubts. Was Bart Ehrman right? Were the sad looking "liberals" I grew up avoiding party to some tragic truths about the substance of what I had been brought up to believe?

A week ago I started reading a very interesting book...

718lhKIGloL._SL1500_.jpg

Surely not?!

So much is built on it! It lends authenticity to other "alternate" readings and excluded apocryphal writings.

The Codex Sinaiticus has only very recently been available for scrutiny, and that is when the controversy began.

Searching further, I came across a playlist that represented perhaps a year and a half of research by the author and other contributors into the authenticity of this manuscript and the story of how it came to be regarded as such a cornerstone of textual criticism. I will post that up as a separate posting, as it has absorbed me for the best part of a week.

The ongoing research into this is published at http://sinaiticus.net
 





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#2
#1) Is Sinaiticus a Fake? - 9:22

#2) Who Darkened Sinaiticus? - 15:29

#3) King James, Sinaiticus and the New World Order - 12:12

#4) Is the Sinaiticus Origin a Lie? - 10:04

#5) Why You Can't Trust Sinaiticus - Part 1 - 6:17

#6) Coloring the Truth - Sinaiticus - Part 2 - 11:19

#7) What Part is Scripture? - Part 3 - 14:33

#8) Deleted on Purpose - Mark 16:9-20 - Sinaiticus - Part 4 - 11:33

#9 Is That Your Best Job? - Sinaiticus - Part 5 - 10:45

#10) Uniquely Bad - Sinaiticus - Part 6 - 12:15

#11) How Old Is It Really? - Sinaiticus - Part 7 - 21:44

#12) What Did Constantine Want? - Sinaiticus - Part 8 - 14:48

#13) Sinaiticus and the Zombie Apocalypse - Sinaiticus - Part 9 - 12:00

#14 It's a Job - Sinaiticus - Part 10 - 12:53

#15 No Doctrine Affected? - Sinaiticus - Part 11 - 12:03

#16 Prove It - 4 Ways You Can Tell A Manuscript Is A Fake - Sinaiticus - Part 12 - 21:36

#17 I Trusted Them - Sinaiticus - Part 13 - 12:11

#18 How Did That Get There - Sinaiticus - Part 14 - 16:15

#19 Origen-al Sin - Sinaiticus - Part 15 - 18:46

#20 3 Big Mistakes of Textual Critics - Sinaiticus - Part 16 - 10:50

#21 Sinaiticus Coincidences - Sinaiticus - Part 17 - 16:41

#22 What Happened to Sinaiticus? - Sinaiticus - Part 18 - 6:26

#23 Does Simonedes' Story Make Sense?- Sinaiticus - Part 19 - 17:20

The Big Picture - The Evidence - Part 1 - 37:04

In case I get poisoned by a Jesuit in the next few days, at least I have managed to post up what I have found out ;-)
 





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#3
I guess most scholars of the world and all the libraries that have some of manuscripts of the Codex Sinaiticus have been duped even though they have been studying it since it has been found.

In all seriousness, I'm not going to be taking the word of a Protestant who doesn't have a PhD in the field of study (that's not the only reason) and who claims the KJV is the "Word of God" (when there's clear interpolations that can be found within the KJV).
 





Etagloc

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#4
I guess most scholars of the world and all the libraries that have some of manuscripts of the Codex Sinaiticus have been duped even though they have been studying it since it has been found.

In all seriousness, I'm not going to be taking the word of a Protestant who doesn't have a PhD in the field of study (that's not the only reason) and who claims the KJV is the "Word of God" (when there's clear interpolations that can be found within the KJV).
That part.

I don't have a PHD in Latin, Greek, Aramaic and all that.... we could spend our whole lifetimes tryna figure this BIble stuff out.... I'll stick with the simple stuff. I don't have three PHD's in ancient Bible studies.
 





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#5
That part.

I don't have a PHD in Latin, Greek, Aramaic and all that.... we could spend our whole lifetimes tryna figure this BIble stuff out.... I'll stick with the simple stuff. I don't have three PHD's in ancient Bible studies.
Despite the fact that I may never get to call you or @Kung Fu brothers in Christ, in being robust spiritual sparring partners you have led me to information that has transformed my faith more than you can know.

God bless both of you.
 





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#6
Despite the fact that I may never get to call you or @Kung Fu brothers in Christ, in being robust spiritual sparring partners you have led me to information that has transformed my faith more than you can know.

God bless both of you.
Regardless, I still see you as a brother in humanity. From what I can tell you're quite genuine and that's what matters to me.
 





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#7
I guess most scholars of the world and all the libraries that have some of manuscripts of the Codex Sinaiticus have been duped even though they have been studying it since it has been found.

In all seriousness, I'm not going to be taking the word of a Protestant who doesn't have a PhD in the field of study (that's not the only reason) and who claims the KJV is the "Word of God" (when there's clear interpolations that can be found within the KJV).
As I see it, sinaiticus.net asks some very good questions which even a 10 year old might become suspicious about, PhD aside!

"The Codex Sinaiticus bible manuscript has been instrumental in producing almost every modern Bible translation in many languages around the world since 1881. Modern textual critics and Bible translators accept Codex Sinaiticus as an ancient text - considered the oldest extant complete New Testament Bible manuscript.

The history of Codex Sinaiticus is not without controversy and question however.

Questions like:
  • Why are the CFA pages in Leipzig University Library white, while the remainder of the pages, described in 1845 as "white", are stained and yellowed with age?
  • Why has no chemical analysis or age testing of the inks or the parchment ever been done?
  • Why is the manuscript in such good shape for its claimed age of 1500-1600 years?
The objective of this website is to help find answers to these and many more questions about the true origin and history of Codex Sinaiticus by providing a home for images and other helpful resources and links that can help piece the puzzle together."

As this is an ongoing investigation with foresnic, historical and textual elements to it, I will continue to dig in and report back if I find anything interesting.
 





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#8
Have you seen Christian Pinto's "A Lamp in Te Dark: The Untold History of The Bible"?

It's well worth watching. Most people alive today have absolutely no idea, just what it actually took, and how many people died, to be able to ultimately get the KJV Bible translated and printed, and finally made available to the entire world.

It's 3 Hours, well worth it:

 





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#10
Have you seen Christian Pinto's "A Lamp in Te Dark: The Untold History of The Bible"?

It's well worth watching. Most people alive today have absolutely no idea, just what it actually took, and how many people died, to be able to ultimately get the KJV Bible translated and printed, and finally made available to the entire world.

It's 3 Hours, well worth it:

From the bottom of the homepage of sinaiticus.net

"We wish to recognize Chris Pinto of Adullam Films for the bold steps taken in production of Tares Among The Wheat, spurring interest in the many questions that surround Codex Sinaiticus."

I'll watch your video next!
 





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#11
Just so I have said it, one of the things I read long ago was on the fractal nature of scripture. To an extent, even if some verses are chopped at, someone reading a "modern" Bible will still see the big picture, may get the essentials of the message and most importantly come to know Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

fractal-2397771_960_720.jpg

I don't think anyone benefits from KJV only Christians condemning those who find it easier to understand modern translations, though I would recommend the NKJV if it's just a language/style preference (especially if the investigation into Sinaitucus continues to undermine it's reliability).
 





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Etagloc

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#12
Despite the fact that I may never get to call you or @Kung Fu brothers in Christ, in being robust spiritual sparring partners you have led me to information that has transformed my faith more than you can know.

God bless both of you.
I frankly am a simple person. All this Codex Sinatiticus stuff sounds very complicated and confusing to me.

To you is your way, to me is my way and hopefully we both enter jannah.......

though I remain insistent that Allah is one and has no partners or sons...

though I do respect your sincerity and your dignified and polite way of discussion... plus I also respect you remain a religious person in an environment where that may not be the most popular way to go
 





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#14
I was reading a little on Derek Prince and which Bible versions he went with.

What was Derek’s favorite Bible translation?

"By far, Derek liked to read the King James Version in his personal Bible study time (or the original Greek or Hebrew!). But, because many of the words used in the KJV had fallen out of common use, he switched to the more modern translations, so he wouldn’t need to spend so much time defining words while he was preaching. The New American Standard Bible and the New International Versions came into more frequent use, but later he switched almost exclusively to the New King James when preaching. That said, he never failed to use another version (i.e., J.B. Phillips, The Living Bible or The Amplified Bible, or “the Prince version”) if it better expressed the true meaning of the original Greek or Hebrew."

https://www.dpmuk.org/about/faqs
 





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#15
@Forever Light

Nearly watched the first film "A Lamp in the Dark" - amazing (and helps make sense of British history better than they reach it at school!!!)
Agreed, it really is.

Another testament to the accuracy of the KJV is The Great Isaiah Scroll that was discovered with the dead sea scrolls, in 1947. It is recognized to be the oldest known complete copy of Isaiah in existence and it has proved the accuracy of Isaiah, as it was rendered in the KJV:

"The Great Isaiah Scroll is an important testimony to the accuracy of the King James Bible. The scroll dates to 100BC and yet despite a few minor spelling and grammatical differences it shows the Masoretic text (which underpins the Old Testament in the King James Bible) is faithful to the original text. Most of the differences in the texts are simply grammatical; for example, spelling certain words with an extra letter which does not alter the pronunciation.

The Great Isaiah Scroll was found in a cave near the Dead Sea by Bedouin shepherds in 1947. The Isaiah Scroll and the other scrolls found there became known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Isaiah Scroll is the most complete scroll out of the two hundred and twenty found; it is complete from beginning to end. It has been dated to one century BC. At over 2100 years old it is the oldest complete copy of Isaiah still in existence.."

http://www.thekingsbible.com/KjvIsaiahScroll.aspx

Then, in the Gospels themselves, we have the record of Christ reading & quoting from none other than, the book of Isaiah. :)
 





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#16
Which Constantine should we believe?!

If you have ever watched a perfomance Shakespeare's Richard III and seen the ill-fated English King portrayed, you might remember the hunchback and withered arm, along with a series of crimes attributed to him...

Larry as Richard III_05_Now is the winter....jpg

Of course, history is often written by the victor, in this case the new Yorkist King of England (and patron of Shakespeare!).

https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/6-myths-about-richard-iii/

In the search for the truth in the authenticity of the Codex Sinaiticus, the good name and testimony of Tischendorf and Simonides was called into question. The establishment backed Tischendorf - but should they have done?

David Daniels looked into how reliable a witness Simonides was - he was initially inclined to think he was a genius forget but was that the truth, or just another "Richard III" tale?




 





cfowen

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#17
From what I've seen, the least knowledgeable are the PhDs or DDs. and the most knowledgeable are those who spend 8 hours a day in the Bible, but have never attended a Bible college. It doesn't take much to know more truth than a DD. The DDs just perpetuate the error-filled, never changing, denominational system, peddling, for lucre, what they erroneously have been taught in the Word of God.
 





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cfowen

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#19
@cfowen

"...what they erroneously have been taught is the Word of God."

What would that be then?
I once made a very short list of 40 false teachings, all of which are taught by the various members of the denominational system. I'll post that. With a lot more thought, I could easily come up with 100s more.

Common False Beliefs in Christendom - Every one is untrue. - None are Scriptural

1- Man HAS a Soul. He is not A soul.
2- The Soul is immortal
3- Hell as Christendom defines it, a place where God tortures those who do not believe in Him, in fire, 24/7, forever, even though Christ died for every sin ever committed, is true.
4- All dead believers are now in heaven with God. They immediately went to heaven after death. They didn't need to wait for the resurrection.
5- The Church has replaced Israel
6- People must do works to earn their salvation. Simply believing in Jesus Christ is not enough.
7- Saved Gentiles today will participate in the earthly Kingdom of Heaven
8- Oral traditions are acceptable to God as doctrine.
9- The entire Bible is written TO us.
10- The Gospel taught by Jesus Christ takes precedent over everything else.
11- The Great Commission is the marching order for the Church today
12- To be saved, we must be born again
13- It's OK to have religious idols, to call the chief muckymuck "Father", to pray to human saints, to tell people you can forgive their sins, to pray in vain repetitions, to have a priesthood, to force celibacy, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.,
14- The present day Church started with Christ's earthly ministry
15- The present day Church started at Pentecost, in Acts 2
16- The present day Church started in Acts 9 or Acts 13, with either Paul's conversion or when Paul's ministry started
17- Lazarus and the Rich Man is a true story.
18- The comma in Lk 23:43 should be before the word, Today, as it appears in most Bibles, and not after.
19- In Lk 23, the thief and Christ met on the day of their deaths, in Paradise, which is in the 3rd Heaven according to 2Cor 12.
20- Christ's earthly ministry was to both Jews and Gentiles
21- Israel are still God's chosen people, during this 2000 year period we're now in
22- The Kingdom of Heaven is the hope of the Church.
23- Mary, Christ's mother, died a virgin.
24- The New Covenant is in effect for the Church today
25- Repentance means to stop sinning
26- Biblical prophecy is being fulfilled today
27- Paul should have been the 12th apostle, as the replacement for Judas
28- Present day Israel was God ordained. It was the fulfilling of prophecy
29- The Sermon on the Mount applies to us today.
30- The Lord's Prayer applies to us today.
31- The Lord's Supper applies to us today
32- Water Baptism applies to us today.
33- The Gifts of the Spirit,as given in Acts 2, are still applicable today.
34- The 12 apostles witnessed daily to both Jews and Gentiles
35- There are prophets in the Church today
36- The present day Gentile Church, The Church Which is His Body, where Christ is the Head, will go through the Tribulation.
37- The purpose of the Acts period was to build the Church
38- Today's Gentile Church will be taken up in the rapture.
39- Christ came to build a Church.
40- True Israel is the Church
 





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#20
I once made a very short list of 40 false teachings. I'll post that.

Common False Beliefs in Christendom - Every one is untrue.

1- Man HAS a Soul. He is not A soul.
2- The Soul is immortal
3- Hell as Christendom defines it, a place where God tortures those who do not believe in Him, in fire, 24/7, forever, even though Christ died for every sin ever committed, is true.
4- All dead believers are now in heaven with God. They immediately went to heaven after death. They didn't need to wait for the resurrection.
5- The Church has replaced Israel
6- People must do works to earn their salvation. Simply believing in Jesus Christ is not enough.
7- Saved Gentiles today will participate in the earthly Kingdom of Heaven
8- Oral traditions are acceptable to God as doctrine.
9- The entire Bible is written TO us.
10- The Gospel taught by Jesus Christ takes precedent over everything else.
11- The Great Commission is the marching order for the Church today
12- To be saved, we must be born again
13- It's OK to have religious idols, to call the chief muckymuck "Father", to pray to human saints, to tell people you can forgive their sins, to pray in vain repetitions, to have a priesthood, to force celibacy, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.,
14- The present day Church started with Christ's earthly ministry
15- The present day Church started at Pentecost, in Acts 2
16- The present day Church started in Acts 9 or Acts 13, with either Paul's conversion or when Paul's ministry started
17- Lazarus and the Rich Man is a true story.
18- The comma in Lk 23:43 should be before the word, Today, as it appears in most Bibles, and not after.
19- In Lk 23, the thief and Christ met on the day of their deaths, in Paradise, which is in the 3rd Heaven according to 2Cor 12.
20- Christ's earthly ministry was to both Jews and Gentiles
21- Israel are still God's chosen people, during this 2000 year period we're now in
22- The Kingdom of Heaven is the hope of the Church.
23- Mary, Christ's mother, died a virgin.
24- The New Covenant is in effect for the Church today
25- Repentance means to stop sinning
26- Biblical prophecy is being fulfilled today
27- Paul should have been the 12th apostle, as the replacement for Judas
28- Present day Israel was God ordained. It was the fulfilling of prophecy
29- The Sermon on the Mount applies to us today.
30- The Lord's Prayer applies to us today.
31- The Lord's Supper applies to us today
32- Water Baptism applies to us today.
33- The Gifts of the Spirit,as given in Acts 2, are still applicable today.
34- The 12 apostles witnessed daily to both Jews and Gentiles
35- There are prophets in the Church today
36- The present day Gentile Church, The Church Which is His Body, where Christ is the Head, will go through the Tribulation.
37- The purpose of the Acts period was to build the Church
38- Today's Gentile Church will be taken up in the rapture.
39- Christ came to build a Church.
40- True Israel is the Church

Ok - I won't try to tackle these points as they are for other topics. What are your impressions on the reliability of Codex Sinaiticus?