Why did Jesus have to die? Isn't that just immoral?

[Bacsi]

I've read works of early Christian church fathers. Including their polemics with pagan opponents. This clearly tells the story of how the orthodox Christian theology came to be. To make Christianity accepted among pagans, Jesus was made to be divine. Otherwise they refused an act of such magnitude (sins of all people, eternal life, sinless life) achieved by slaying of a mere mortal. The sacrificial man had to be elevated to the position of God, otherwise pagans didn't even want to hear about Jesus.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

There is a lot that people miss in the account of the Garden of Gethsemene - I will add my observations in brackets...

John 18

4Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? 5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he.

[The he is italicised as it is implied but not present. Jesus says I AM]

And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

[for the avoidance of doubt, Jesus speaks His name (I AM) and nobody can stand in His presence. Nobody could have taken Jesus unless He allowed it].

7Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: 9That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. 10Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. 11Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

[Jesus's will is aligned to His Fathers].

*p.s. no Church Fathers were referenced during this incident @Bacsi

 

[Bacsi]

No humans killed him because of envy and greed. God just didn’t stop them or wage war against them because of this. So Jesus was blameless in every way including the refusal to defend himself with a sword when they wanted to kill him.

And instead of seeking vengeance for the injustice committed against him, he offers forgiveness and salvation and this is the meaning of the cross and why we recognize this. He was innocent. He did not commit a crime worthy of death. Him dying on the cross was an act of injustice. You make it sound like he climbed on a cross and yelled “look at me, look at what I’m doing for you”. In reality, he had no choice. He was arrested and a death sentence was manipulated so that some people could try to get rid of him.

And in all of these offenses committed against him, he still offers forgiveness and salvation to everyone including the people who wanted him put to death. So you see, his example on the cross is just as important as his other lessons on character. In fact, no one has been able to find real success in following Christ without recognizing the cross and choosing instead to just follow his teachings like Jesus only meant to be a life coach.

Thank you for carefully and clearly explaining the basics of the orthodox Christian teaching. I do understand all of these doctrines you outlined. A couple of things you misrepresented, I think, but it's not so important.

Again, it's about seeing things for what they are. The naked truth, so to speak.

If I want to go from A to B, at the end it doesn't matter if I do it in a bus, car, on a motorcycle or a horse. As long as I get where I want to be.

It doesn't matter what doctrines you clothe the core idea of Christian soteria in - it's still the same.

God killed man. This man's blood washed your sins. Human sacrifice. It's barbaric and injust. It corrupts the mind of anyone who beleives in such teaching.

 

[Bacsi]

Enlightenment and self realization only go so far and at a certain point it becomes a process of the ego trying to completely dissociate itself from the unconscious, or some other extreme because true self realization does seem to require recognizing where error comes from. Why do we make mistakes that hurt ourselves and other people? Why do we often change addictions rather than overcome them?

These questions that are common require a deep connection to a process of repentance that is close to impossible to achieve. This is why Christianity teaches salvation because what you are saying is impossible.

At some point, your own ego will get in your way of being able to achieve this goal. It’s only a matter of time.

The first step is at least to try and be intellectually honest. It's pretty hard to do for a number of reasons.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The first step is at least to try and be intellectually honest. It's pretty hard to do for a number of reasons.

Your response presumes that you are the intellectually honest one. You are as committed to unbelief and rejection of the finished work of Jesus the Cross as Christians are to it.

An intellectually honest person would admit this...

 

[rainerann]

Thank you for carefully and clearly explaining the basics of the orthodox Christian teaching. I do understand all of these doctrines you outlined.

Again, it's about seeing things for what they are. The naked truth, so to speak.

If I want to go from A to B, at the end it doesn't matter if I do it in a bus, car, on a motorcycle or a horse. As long as I get where I want to be.

It doesn't matter what doctrines you clothe the core idea of Christian soteria in - it's still the same.

God killed man. This man's blood washed your sins. Human sacrifice. It's barbaric and injust. It corrupts the mind of anyone who beleives in such teaching.

By your logic then, every time someone dies, they are killed by God. This is not a Christian teaching because the cross is not about human sacrifice being requested or required. It is about an innocent man being put to death by an evil world that was created by disobeying God in the first place and offering forgiveness and salvation in response. Death is an unnatural act in and of itself especially if you believe in the process of self actualization. It is just as barbaric to believe that death serves a purpose in this process of self actualization or that it is necessary to it in any way because death is barbaric. So, yes, I agree being intellectually honest is important and difficult. This is why I accept salvation. Salvation provides rest from the hypocrisy that is created by trying to become self actualized.

 

[Bacsi]

There is a lot that people miss in the account of the Garden of Gethsemene - I will add my observations in brackets...

John 18

4Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? 5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he.

[The he is italicised as it is implied but not present. Jesus says I AM]

And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

[for the avoidance of doubt, Jesus speaks His name (I AM) and nobody can stand in His presence. Nobody could have taken Jesus unless He allowed it].

7Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: 9That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none. 10Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. 11Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

[Jesus's will is aligned to His Fathers].

*p.s. no Church Fathers were referenced during this incident @Bacsi

Whoever compiled and edited the gospel of John are among the church fathers. It wasn't a coincidence that those four gospels were selected by the later orthodox church fathers.

I understand your interpretation, it's a little far-fetched, but I can accept it as a possibility.

The later church fathers show the origins of such teachings in greater detail. In their works it can be more evident than in the New Testament itself.

 

[EpistemiX]

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View attachment 11097​

I've yet to see Christians explain the trinity, without confusing each other. This diagram shows that irony better than I can.

 

[Bacsi]

Your response presumes that you are the intellectually honest one. You are as committed to unbelief and rejection of the finished work of Jesus the Cross as Christians are to it.

An intellectually honest person would admit this...

Not the fist time I'm being told this at this forum by a Christian.

You didn't see me saying "try". And also that it's "pretty hard". We're all in the same boat. You or I can be more honest towards religion, or science, or morality, or work, or relationships with other people or even with ourselves.

Your assumption is wrong. Though I do understand where you're coming from. I agree that I don't do a good job of presenting myself as a truly honest or objective person. It's not my goal. I'm a seeker, if anything.

 

[EpistemiX]

The blood atonement was Jesus Christ.

It was still in the future in the time of Jonah but as the blood atonement of God was already decided upon before the creation of the world it was just as valid for the Ninivites.

That's one heck of a theological inconsistency then.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I've yet to see Christians explain the trinity, without confusing each other. This diagram shows that irony better than I can.

It is the difficulty of the temporal explaining the transcendent. As God has attributes both greater and unlike my own on so many levels for which I have no frame of reference "explaining" the Trinity will be hampered by my humanity, not by the nature of the Godhead.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Not the fist time I'm being told this at this forum by a Christian.

You didn't see me saying "try". And also that it's "pretty hard". We're all in the same boat. You or I can be more honest towards religion, or science, or morality, or work, or relationships with other people or even with ourselves.

Your assumption is wrong. Though I do understand where you're coming from. I agree that I don't do a good job of presenting myself as a truly honest or objective person. It's not my goal. I'm a seeker, if anything.

To always seek and never find must be a bitter joy.

 

[Bacsi]

That's one heck of a theological inconsistency then.

It's how one resolves a contradiction... By creating absurdity.

 

[Bacsi]

To always seek and never find must be a bitter joy.

Absolutely. It's a far better joy than to settle for something that isn't right.

Better keep eyes open than shut.

There's no greater joy than to see things as they are, even if there's no end to seeking to understand the beaitiful and ugly things you see.

 

[Bacsi]

It is the difficulty of the temporal explaining the transcendent. As God has attributes both greater and unlike my own on so many levels for which I have no frame of reference "explaining" the Trinity will be hampered by my humanity, not by the nature of the Godhead.

Oh the high art of empty eloquence.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Oh the high art of empty eloquence.

Put more simply, if a father who works in studying graphene cannot adequately explain to his ten year boy what he does for a living in terms that mean anything to him (nanotechnology, quantised atoms etc) does this mean his dad is actually unemployed?

 

[Bacsi]

By your logic then, every time someone dies, they are killed by God. This is not a Christian teaching because the cross is not about human sacrifice being requested or required. It is about an innocent man being put to death by an evil world that was created by disobeying God in the first place and offering forgiveness and salvation in response. Death is an unnatural act in and of itself especially if you believe in the process of self actualization. It is just as barbaric to believe that death serves a purpose in this process of self actualization or that it is necessary to it in any way because death is barbaric. So, yes, I agree being intellectually honest is important and difficult. This is why I accept salvation. Salvation provides rest from the hypocrisy that is created by trying to become self actualized.

I understand what you're saying. God didn't do it because He had to do it, i.e. had no choice but to kill Jesus.

This comes in contradiction with God's omnipotence and sovereignity. God created the conditions of the fall. He devised the rules of foregiveness. He initiated and enacted the killing of Jesus.

For all intents and purposes, ultimately the finger points at God.

According to the orthodox Christian doctrines, that is.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Absolutely. It's a far better joy than to settle for something that isn't right.

Better keep eyes open than shut.

There's no greater joy than to see things as they are, even if there's no end to seeking to understand the beaitiful and ugly things you see.

I said "bitter", that being an oxymoron. To look for a restaurant because you are hungry but deny the "easy answer" of eating contains longing without fulfillment.

 

[Bacsi]

Put more simply, if a father who works in studying graphene cannot adequately explain to his ten year boy what he does for a living in terms that mean anything to him (nanotechnology, quantised atoms etc) does this mean his dad is actually unemployed?

Dad and son are reality. Christian doctrine is fantasy.

 

[Orwell's mentor]

I've yet to see Christians explain the trinity, without confusing each other. This diagram shows that irony better than I can.

Just an FYI, there are Unitarian Christians as my parents went to and met at a Unitarian church. Therefore, not all Christians believe in or follow the Trinity doctrine. Actually on these VC boards is the first I’ve ever heard of it.