Christian viewpoints and "supporting israel"

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

Wow. I had not heard that interpretation before. It makes sense in a way that other alternatives to a future earthly millenium reign haven't.

What you said really clears up vs 20:4 because i've not gotten an answer before about who the righteous will be reigning over, since everyone else is dead...

I mean, ive heard completely unbiblical or extrabiblical rationales like some people get a second chance (which directly contradicts scripture), or those who never attained the age of reason get the opportunity to believe/obey (depending if the perspn teaching is for faith alone or works salvation) but the Bible doesn't say any of these things...

But what does it mean that when satan is loosed out of prison he will receive the nations and gathet them to battle?

We first have to understand what kind of prison Satan will be in.

Satan as all angels (good or bad) is a spirit as the Bible tells us. So the chain he will be bound with will not be physical because angels cannot be confined with a literal chain.

His prison will be his circumstances. Satan will be “tied down” because he will have no people to deceive. The unrighteous will all be dead (the unrighteous dead won't be resurrected when Jesus returns, and the unrighteous living will die at the sight of Christ which is why the earth will be desolate when Satan is bound) and the saved will all be in heaven. The Lord will confine Satan and his demons to this earth for a thousand years with no one to deceive. It will be for him the most galling chain ever forged.

The Bible tells us as you've posted that Satan will go out to deceive the nations again. The unrighteous will be resurrected in what is called the second resurrection, which will be the resurrection of the wicked. This is when all those who rebelled against God, who refused Jesus and sided with Satan, will be brought back to life to be judged (Revelation 20:5). This is how Satan will be released from his prison. True to his nature, he will immediately begin lying to the unrighteous on the earth from all ages.

Then Satan and the wicked will attack the Holy city/New Jerusalem which will come down from heaven with all the saints and Jesus. Satan will convince the wicked, if they unify, God does not have a chance. With the entire world against one city (the wicked outnumber the saints), victory will likely appear certain to them. The nations will then unite and marshal their armies to surround the New Jerusalem.

Does the rest of the chapter take place during the 1000 years and not after?

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

It happens after the millennium. Verses 11-15 are about the Great white throne judgement which is the judgement of the unsaved/the wicked. This happens after Satan is loosed from his prison and the wicked have been resurrected. Jesus will return to earth with the holy city/New Jerusalem. All the wicked who have ever lived, including the devil and his angels, will be present.

Revelation is not written in chronological order. So most of Revelation 20 gives us the gist of what is going to happen to Satan and the wicked and the last verses (11-15 as you've posted) give us more details about the judgement of the wicked before fire comes down from heaven and the wicked are cast into the lake of fire.

Also, i'm guessing Isaiah 11 is not about an earthly millenium then - i've often seen this passage given as a proof for a millenium.

6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious

No, its not about the earthly millennium. Its about Jesus and about heaven and the new earth mostly. There is more to it of course.

Millennialism

(from Latin millennium 'a thousand years', and -ism) or chiliasm (from the Greek equivalent) is a belief which is advanced by some religious denominations. According to this belief, a Golden Age will occur or a Paradise will be established on Earth prior to the Last Judgment and the future eternal state of the "world to come".

If i remember correctly he was saying that Jesus returned in 66AD right before the temple was destroyed.

Thanks for the explanation.

Wow I had never heard of a Christian who said Jesus returned before the temple was destroyed. There are really many false doctrines within Christendom that don't harmonise with the Bible. That would mean His second return would not be His second but third and the third would be the fourth.

Yeah, i've been doing more research about it and you're right, the jesuits were right in the middle of this. I guess as a form of controlled opposition, because i think most dispensationalists are anti catholic and anti papacy. That's kind of what drew me in originally.

I hope more people begin to ask questions and really search the scriptures.

Lets pray that God through the Holy spirit guides and illuminates us all while we search and study the Bible and that we always ask questions and get answers to them according to God's Word.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

I just wanted to add this if that is okay. This is about the 70 weeks/490 years that God cut off for the Jews to accept Jesus as Messiah or they would be cut off.

What the dispensationalists did is cut off the 70th week/ 7 literal years and put it more than 2000 years in the future. As I told another Christian Zionist, time is continuos and does doesn't nor cannot be separated by a second let alone by more than 2000 years. Biblically God has never separated time. So the 70 weeks/490 years are continuous and they ended 31/2 years after Jesus' death. Israel then stopped being a chosen nation because they rejected Christ. Jews became like the Gentiles who had to accept Christ individually.

I think we may discussed this before. You said the final 7 yrs ended around the time Stephen was stoned to death if i remember correctly?

Yeah, i can see how dispensationalism (and it's ulterior motive of promoting zionism) can only make sense if the last 7 yrs are postponed.

Makes me wonder if the ones behind all of this are planning/have planned a(nother) psy op that they will attempt to pass off as prophesy being fulfilled...

We first have to understand what kind of prison Satan will be in.

Satan as all angels (good or bad) is a spirit as the Bible tells us. So the chain he will be bound with will not be physical because angels cannot be confined with a literal chain.

His prison will be his circumstances. Satan will be “tied down” because he will have no people to deceive. The unrighteous will all be dead (the unrighteous dead won't be resurrected when Jesus returns, and the unrighteous living will die at the sight of Christ which is why the earth will be desolate when Satan is bound) and the saved will all be in heaven. The Lord will confine Satan and his demons to this earth for a thousand years with no one to deceive. It will be for him the most galling chain ever forged.

The Bible tells us as you've posted that Satan will go out to deceive the nations again. The unrighteous will be resurrected in what is called the second resurrection, which will be the resurrection of the wicked. This is when all those who rebelled against God, who refused Jesus and sided with Satan, will be brought back to life to be judged (Revelation 20:5). This is how Satan will be released from his prison. True to his nature, he will immediately begin lying to the unrighteous on the earth from all ages.

Then Satan and the wicked will attack the Holy city/New Jerusalem which will come down from heaven with all the saints and Jesus. Satan will convince the wicked, if they unify, God does not have a chance. With the entire world against one city (the wicked outnumber the saints), victory will likely appear certain to them. The nations will then unite and marshal their armies to surround the New Jerusalem.


It happens after the millennium. Verses 11-15 are about the Great white throne judgement which is the judgement of the unsaved/the wicked. This happens after Satan is loosed from his prison and the wicked have been resurrected. Jesus will return to earth with the holy city/New Jerusalem. All the wicked who have ever lived, including the devil and his angels, will be present.

Revelation is not written in chronological order. So most of Revelation 20 gives us the gist of what is going to happen to Satan and the wicked and the last verses (11-15 as you've posted) give us more details about the judgement of the wicked before fire comes down from heaven and the wicked are cast into the lake of fire.

I see... so ch21 takes place before 20:8-9, because the city descends before satan is loosed to gather the resurrected wicked ones to attack it.

Wow I had never heard of a Christian who said Jesus returned before the temple was destroyed. There are really many false doctrines within Christendom that don't harmonise with the Bible. That would mean His second return would not be His second but third and the third would be the fourth.

Around the same time or before.

Yeah, predictably there are jesuit fingerprints all over this one too. Just clarifying, this is not the official catholic or orthodox view, but they all have in common that they believe either the end times already occured or we're living in the millenium. I think the catholics may go as far as to say the catholic church is the new Jerusalem, but i don't remember if he directly said that.

Yes that would mean the 2nd is the 3rd.

Preterism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

At the time of the Counter-Reformation, the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar wrote a prominent preterist exposition of prophecy.
...
Partial preterism (often referred to as orthodox preterism or classical preterism) may hold that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70[27] or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
...
Full preterism differs from partial preterism in that full preterists believe that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus's Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment.[44
...
In the preterist view, the Tribulation took place in the past when Roman legions destroyed Jerusalem and its temple in AD 70 during the end stages of the First Jewish–Roman War, and it affected only the Jewish people rather than all mankind.

A preterist discussion of the Tribulation has its focus on the Gospels, in particular the prophetic passages in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and the Olivet discourse, rather than on the Book of Revelation. Most preterists apply much of the symbolism in Revelation to Rome, the Caesars, and their persecution of Christians, rather than to the Tribulation upon the Jews.

Jesus's warning in Matthew 24:34 that "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled"[61] is tied back to his similar warning to the scribes and the Pharisees that their judgment would "come upon this generation",[62] that is, during the first century rather than at a future time long after the scribes and Pharisees had died. The destruction in AD 70 occurred within a 40-year biblical generation from the time when Jesus gave that discourse.



As for the second coming in the sky with His armies, supposedly the Jewish historian Josephus wrote about something that sounds like it.

Jesus, the Son of Man, was LITERALLY Seen in the Clouds in A.D. 66 | Revelation Revolution

The first-century Jewish historian Josephus describes a heavenly army in the clouds much like the army Jesus leads in Revelation 19:11-14. This event is also recorded by other historians. The first-century pagan historian Tacitus also mentions this event: “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.”2

Pseudo-Hegesippus also describes the coming of Christ on the clouds with His mighty angels at that time when he writes, “A certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed, and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen in the clouds chariots in the clouds and armed battle arrays by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded.”3

The medieval Jewish historian Sepher Yosippon expounds upon this angelic army in the sky of A.D. 66 by saying, “Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire.”4 The parallels between these three accounts and Revelation 19 are striking. However, in Yosippon’s account one can see how 2 Thessalonians 1:7 was explicitly and LITERALLY fulfilled in A.D. 66: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”


In my personal view, either it isn't it or it's a dual application. The actual second coming has not occured because here we all are, it is not the millenium, nor are we in new Jerusalem...

Lets pray that God through the Holy spirit guides and illuminates us all while we search and study the Bible and that we always ask questions and get answers to them according to God's Word.

Yes!

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

No mention of the bloodline issue (theyre not the descendants of Abraham), but still worth a watch

Shaking my head at some of the comments... apparently mentioning the current moral state of the country of israel and their hatred for Christ and Christians is "self-righteous". It amazes me that people who believe Christians can/should? be completely unregenerate sinners believe that there is ONE unforgivable sin: not "supporting" israel.

Either it's faith alone or not... can't have it both ways.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

From back in 2002.

Again, doesn't mention the bloodline issue, but still makes some valid points.

Zionism Versus The Holy Bible — by Pastor Thomas Williamson

Zionism Versus The Holy Bible

www.jesus-is-savior.com

Much of our Christian emphasis on foreign policy in the Middle East today is based on the promise that God made to Abraham in Genesis 12:3, "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."


The first half of this verse is a promise that God made to just one person, Abraham. The original Hebrew is in the second person singular, meaning that God is speaking only to Abraham. The King James Version correctly reflects this grammatical construction, since "thee" is singular, referring only to one person, whereas "ye" would refer to multiple persons.

Of the second half of the verse, Matthew Henry says, This was the promise that crowned all the rest; for it points to the Messiah, in whom ‘all the promises are yea and amen.’ Note, (1), Jesus Christ is the great blessing of the world, the greatest that ever the world blessed with."


Recently Genesis 12:3 has been spiritualized by Christian Zionist preachers, who say that this verse applies not just to Abraham, but also to Abraham’s descendants, specifically to the modern state of Israel founded in 1948. Supposedly, it means that evangelical Christians as individuals, and America as a nation, are bound to provide unquestioning support, financial and otherwise, to the state of Israel. It is said that if America fails to back up Israel in every way possible, financially, militarily and otherwise, then God will be through with America and will have us nuked.

When it is pointed out that the various Arabs nations, including Palestine, are also descended from Abraham, the Christian Zionists say that the promise of Genesis 12:3 applies only to the descendants of Isaac (Of course, there is no mention of Isaac in Genesis 12:3. They often misquote the verse, saying it refers to "blessing Israel," but Israel is not mentioned in the verse either).

Zionists say, based on their non-literal, speculative, spiritualized interpretation of Genesis 12:3, that we are to give total, unquestioned support to some of Abraham’s children, while others of Abraham’s children are to be hated, persecuted, ethnically cleansed, bombed back into the Stone Age, maybe even nuked.

But in Genesis 21:13, 17-18 God also bestows His blessing on Ishmael and his descendants, saying, "For I will make him a great nation." According to the same principles of interpretation by which we have made Genesis 12:3 a command for political support of the modern nation of Israel, Genesis 21:18 must be taken as a command for political support of the modern Arab nations. (Anybody want to start up a "Christian Ishmaelist" movement to lobby for Arab national greatness?)


Does God really demand that we support all actions and activities of the Israeli Government, even if those actions violate God’s moral standards of righteousness?

It should be pointed out that even in Old Testament times, when Israel was a nation specially chosen by, and ruled over by, Jehovah, He did not expect His people to support and endorse all actions of the government of Israel.

When the Government of Israel committed human rights violations, the prophets openly condemned them, 2 Kings 6:21 –23, 2 Chronicles 28:9-11, Nehemiah 5:7-11, Jeremiah 34:11-17, Amos 2:6-7, etc. Nowadays, liberal Jewish groups still protest human rights violations in Israel. Nevertheless, most fundamentalists Christians would never dream of doing such a thing – it is against their religion. It is their duty to either deny that such violations take place, or else to endorse and commend such violations. We have been told that God will smite us if we disagree with anything that Israel does.

The lawgiver Moses commanded the Hebrews that they should not oppress the strangers or non-Jews in their lands, Exodus 12:49, 22:21, 23:9, Leviticus 19:33-34, 25:35, Deuteronomy 10:18-19, 23:7, 24:17, 27:19. That message, of course, is not mentioned today – it is considered "politically incorrect."

When King Ahab and Queen Jezebel unjustly expropriated the vineyard of Naboth, the prophet Elijah publicly denounced the kind for this unjust action, 1 Kings 21:17-24, Jehu cited this official action of the government of Israel against Naboth as justification for overthrowing that government, 2 Kings 9:25-26.

But nowadays, when the Israeli government expropriates the lands and properties of Palestinians without compensation, we look the other way and say nothing about it.

...
Supposedly it is better for Jewish and Arab children of Abraham to keep on killing each other over the land (while these sanctimonious war profiteers collect the money from sales of their Armageddon videos. Could it be a conflict of interest to allow American foreign policy to be dictated by these mega-millionaire preachers, who stand to make a profit if there is a war in the Middle East?)

We have seen that God’s inspired prophets did not meet the Christian Zionist standard of blind, unquestioning support for Israel. As it turns out, today’s Christian Zionists do not meet that standard, either.

Whenever the modern Israeli government takes any action that does not fit in with the speculative doomsday scenarios of the Armageddon Theology, the Christian Zionists will loudly protest and insist that the Israelis are doing wrong.

For instance, in 1994 Christian Zionist leaders, including Pat Robertson and Ralph Reed, publicly condemned the policies of the Israeli government under Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, who was seeking a peace settlement with the Palestinians. Robertson has also attacked the policies of Israeli foreign minister Shimon Peres.
...

Modern-day Israelis and other Jews are well aware of the fact that the Christian Zionists believe, based on a mistaken interpretation of Zechariah 13:8, that there must be a devastating war in the Middle East in which two-thirds of all the Jews will be slaughtered. It is commonly understood that the Christian Zionists do not really care about what is best for the Jews, as evidenced by their constant lobbying efforts to stir up World War III in the Middle East. Million Jews may wind up dead, but it will be good for sales of the Armageddon videos that are peddled on the televangelists’ broadcasts and web-sites.


This raises the question who is really "blessing Israel;" those who are working for peace in the Middle East, or those who are agitating for a war designed to get two-thirds of all Jews wiped out?

...

American Christians who really want to be a blessing to all the children of Abraham (Jews and Arabs) need to realize that they do not have to render blind, knee-jerk support to the most extremist elements of Zionism, or to those who are actively trying to foment massive wars in the Middle East that would be contrary to the interests of the Israeli people. Not everyone is going to agree that stirring up a war to get 2/3 of all Jews killed is a good thing for the Jews.

Nor should we forget that our Prime Directive as Christians is found in the Great Commission. Our mission is to evangelize, baptize and teach, not to try to hasten Christ’s coming by agitating war and violence in the Middle East.

Zionism is based on a total misunderstanding of what the Bible teaches. It is true that God gave Palestine to Hebrews in ancient times. But the Bible teaches that their possession of the land was under a conditional covenant with Jehovah. If the Hebrews disobeyed their God, they would lose the land. This is clearly taught in Genesis 17:9-14, Exodus 19:4-5, Leviticus 26:40-45, Deuteronomy 7:12, Joshua 23:15-16, 1 Kings 9:6-9, 2 Chronicles 7:19-22, Jeremiah 34:12-22, Ezekiel 33:23-29, Matthew 21:43, etc.

When the Jews rejected their Messiah, God sent the Romans to dispossess the Jews from their land in 70 AD. This was God’s complete punishment on the Jews for crucifying Christ – therefore, the Jews today should not be persecuted for something that happened 2000 years ago. However, their former title deed on the land of Palestine is not abrogated.

The New Testament teaches that Christians are to focus on the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one, John 4:21, Galatians 4:24-28, Hebrews 12:18-24. We are told in Hebrews 11:13-16 that even Abraham has no further interest in a restored Jewish state on earth, because he is in a much better place in heaven.

Christian Zionism is a movement that claims to be based on the Bible, but as we have seen, it is actually contrary to what the Bible teaches. All Christians should repudiate Zionism and should work for a peace settlement in the Middle East that will be of mutual benefit to Abraham’s Jewish and Arab children in Palestine.

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

I think we may discussed this before. You said the final 7 yrs ended around the time Stephen was stoned to death if i remember correctly?

We did.

In Daniel 9, the 70th week (7 literal years) is mentioned specifically because of Jesus' ministry and death. Daniel 9: 27 says, "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." Jesus' ministry starts at the beginning of the seven years which lasts 31/2 years, then in the middle of the week He is crucified (brings an end to the sacrificial rituals of the earthly temple because Christ is the Lamb that takes away our sins). 31/2 years later, Stephen the deacon is stoned which sadly is how the 70 weeks/490 years ended for the Jews. It ended with their rejection of Christ.

Yeah, i can see how dispensationalism (and it's ulterior motive of promoting zionism) can only make sense if the last 7 yrs are postponed.

Yep and it messes up biblical doctrine, prophecy and time.

Makes me wonder if the ones behind all of this are planning/have planned a(nother) psy op that they will attempt to pass off as prophesy being fulfilled...

Of course. As long as Satan is alive and free, he will always be plotting and planning how to get people on the road to hell. And he uses his human agents and any means possible to do that. The Bible tells us Satan is walking about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

The end time deceptions will be very powerful and effective to the point that even some of the very elect (God's people) will believe these deceptions (Matthew 24:24; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10; Revelation 12:9, 20:10).

I

see... so ch21 takes place before 20:8-9, because the city descends before satan is loosed to gather the resurrected wicked ones to attack it.

Revelation 21 skips out all the events of Revelation 20 and focusses on the New Jerusalem and the earth being made new.

After the New Jerusalem comes down to earth it doesn't go back to heaven again. The events of Revelation 20 take place and then Satan and the wicked are destroyed and they will cease to exist. Evil and sin will be no more forever.

All these things take place in the presence of Christ and the saints. After that, the earth will be cleansed with a purifying fire which will be quenched after its work is done and the whole world will be made new. The saints will live in this world after its made new with the New Jerusalem in it. The earth will still be our planet, but it will be restored to God’s original plan before sin entered this world.

Isaiah 65:17, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind."

There will be no more sin, or suffering, or even negative thoughts! It will be a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in God's presence.

Yeah, predictably there are jesuit fingerprints all over this one too. Just clarifying, this is not the official catholic or orthodox view, but they all have in common that they believe either the end times already occured or we're living in the millenium. I think the catholics may go as far as to say the catholic church is the new Jerusalem, but i don't remember if he directly said that.

Yes that would mean the 2nd is the 3rd.

Preterism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I've heard about Preterism and know a bit about it. Not much because I don't want to waste too much time learning about false doctrines. I posted about it in my dispensationalism thread. The papacy has control of the Jesuits and gives orders to them. They are Satan's agents. They do his bidding that's for sure. They have brought in so much false doctrine and confusion in Christendom and completely diverted it from God and His truth.

One of the other reasons for these false teachings were entirely to take the finger off the papacy as the antichrist and it has worked because most Protestants don't think of the papacy as the antichrist. They have joined hands with the papacy instead as part of the ecumenical movement.

In my personal view, either it isn't it or it's a dual application. The actual second coming has not occured because here we all are, it is not the millenium, nor are we in new Jerusalem...

Very sad that there are Christians who believe these Jesuit/satanic lies. If they read their Bibles they would very quickly realise its not God's truth.

 

[Flarepath]

..Lets pray that God through the Holy spirit guides and illuminates us all while we search and study the Bible and that we always ask questions and get answers to them according to God's Word.

Don't overdo the "searching and studying" mate-
Paul said - "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)
And Jesus had to tell the snooty priestly classes the same thing-
"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:39/40)
I could even speculate that it's satanic to suggest to people that heavy-duty bible study is necessary..

 

[phipps]

No mention of the bloodline issue (theyre not the descendants of Abraham), but still worth a watch

Shaking my head at some of the comments... apparently mentioning the current moral state of the country of israel and their hatred for Christ and Christians is "self-righteous". It amazes me that people who believe Christians can/should? be completely unregenerate sinners believe that there is ONE unforgivable sin: not "supporting" israel.

Either it's faith alone or not... can't have it both ways.

I believe the Palestinians who stayed on the land are more Jewish than those who came back to the land and created the state of Israel as you posted. I've seen some documentaries and videos on YouTube where Jews do their DNA and they find out they don't have any middle eastern DNA at all. They are fully European.

Also they don't understand the teaching of the unpardonable sin biblically. The unpardonable sin is “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.”

Matthew 12:31, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men." See also Mark 3:29 and Luke 12:10.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit means to purposely shut it out, to stop listening to God’s voice. Even to the point of slander without remorse.

A good example is that of the Pharisees. Jesus had just been to the synagogue, where He healed a man’s withered hand on the Sabbath. That angered the Pharisees as it broke their “rules” about Sabbath-keeping. Jesus then angered them further by healing a blind and mute man who was possessed by a demon. The Pharisees and scribes then said that Jesus was doing all these miraculous things not through the power of God but through the power of Satan, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons” (Matthew 12:24). They said this to God Himself.

Jesus knew the minds and hearts of the Pharisees. He knew they felt threatened by Him and that they were planning on how to get rid of Him (Matthew 12:14). He responded to their accusations by saying, "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matthew 12:32-32).

Jesus knew the Pharisees didn’t actually believe Jesus was performing miracles by the power of the devil. They knew that all the good Jesus was doing could only have come from a good source, as good fruit can only come from a good tree. But they put that knowledge to the back of their minds and were only interested in opposing Jesus to promote their authority because they felt threatened.

The Pharisees had become so stubborn, so determined to be wise in their own eyes, that they blocked out God’s message even when it was right in front of them. They wilfully ignored the Holy Spirit.

Once they were determined to silence the Holy Spirit and their own consciences, the Pharisees had committed the unforgivable sin. Not because of one particular act. But because they repeatedly pushed away everything that showed them that Jesus was the Son of God. By continuing to do this, they cut their connection to God and His Holy Spirit.

The unforgivable sin is not God refusing to take us back when we repent, but its us shutting ourselves off from the possibility of repentance. It’s us deliberately severing our connection to God, even though we know His love and the sacrifice He made for us.

Its not committing the unforgivable sin not to support Israel.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I recently found out that my great-grandfather was an SDA. He was a good guy by all accounts but had some “heterodox” ideas about the Bible, as filtered through the writings of Ellen G White. In many ways, the spiritual opposites of an Adventist position would be those who take a pre-trib, futurist, premillennial stance on eschatology. Typically the future (if any) for Israel is an area of deepest disagreement.

For an alternative view on Adventism, this channel is a good place to start:

https://youtube.com/@answeringadventism?si=glYWHxKKFHz3Y-lU

This group is also a good Facebook resource:

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

www.facebook.com

 

[phipps]

The truth is the truth, whether we believe it or not.

Satan can present a counterfeit so closely resembling the truth that it deceives those who are willing to be deceived, who desire to shun the self-denial and sacrifice demanded by the truth; but it is impossible for him to hold under his power one soul who honestly desires, at whatever cost, to know the truth. Christ is the truth and the "Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9). The Spirit of truth has been sent to guide men into all truth. And upon the authority of the Son of God it is declared: "Seek, and ye shall find." "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine" (Matthew 7:7; John 7:17). - DD 12.1

Personally I don't think dispensationalism closely resembles the truth of God at all.

Dispensationalist teaching is very popular within Christendom. However popularity is not a sign of something being true. The truth of God is not not based on how many people believe in it. Whether its a minority (only a minority ever have the truth) or the majority the truth is the truth and won't change forever.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Revelation 21 skips out all the events of Revelation 20 and focusses on the New Jerusalem and the earth being made new.

After the New Jerusalem comes down to earth it doesn't go back to heaven again. The events of Revelation 20 take place and then Satan and the wicked are destroyed and they will cease to exist. Evil and sin will be no more forever.

All these things take place in the presence of Christ and the saints. After that, the earth will be cleansed with a purifying fire which will be quenched after its work is done and the whole world will be made new. The saints will live in this world after its made new with the New Jerusalem in it. The earth will still be our planet, but it will be restored to God’s original plan before sin entered this world.

Well, im not sure i understand the correct order of events - if satan is loosed to gather the newly resurrected wicked ones and war against the saints wno are in new Jerusalem, then wouldn't new Jerusalem come down (for the 1st and only time) around the same time, not after?

Regardless, we will find out when it happens, i suppose.

I've heard about Preterism and know a bit about it. Not much because I don't want to waste too much time learning about false doctrines. I posted about it in my dispensationalism thread. The papacy has control of the Jesuits and gives orders to them. They are Satan's agents. They do his bidding that's for sure. They have brought in so much false doctrine and confusion in Christendom and completely diverted it from God and His truth.

One of the other reasons for these false teachings were entirely to take the finger off the papacy as the antichrist and it has worked because most Protestants don't think of the papacy as the antichrist. They have joined hands with the papacy instead as part of the ecumenical movement

I research a variety of doctrines and view points, and see how they match up to, or not, the scriptures.

It was a specific form of dispensationalism that first appealed to me as a new Christian, but at some point i just couldn't overlook the omissions, mental gymnastics and contradictions needed to make sense of some of the doctrines.

And, having attended one church that was deep into this specific form, the complete lack of questioning permitted and cult like atmosphere. Seems the pastors are almost counting on people not studying their Bibles for themselves and just believing what theyre told.

The jesuits and the papacy are bad news, im am skeptical of anyone who downplays this fact. The ecumentcal movement has the goal of a one world religion, and it does not involve Jesus.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Don't overdo the "searching and studying" mate-
Paul said - "I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)
And Jesus had to tell the snooty priestly classes the same thing-
"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:39/40)
I could even speculate that it's satanic to suggest to people that heavy-duty bible study is necessary..

Then how will people know if what they believe lines up with God.
These days too many people operate on feelings alone and no doctrine.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

I recently found out that my great-grandfather was an SDA. He was a good guy by all accounts but had some “heterodox” ideas about the Bible, as filtered through the writings of Ellen G White.

"Heterodox" is a relative term - to an eastern orthodox anything outside their church is heterodox, to a catholic anything outside of their church plus eastern orthodox is heterodox. Once shouldn't be disuaded by a fear of heterodoxy while searching the scriptures.

At some point in history (and to some, still today) dispensationalism was heterodox...

I can agree about not filtering the scriptures through the teachings of anybody.

In many ways, the spiritual opposites of an Adventist position would be those who take a pre-trib, futurist, premillennial stance on eschatology. Typically the future (if any) for Israel is an area of deepest disagreement.

The adventist position is the opposite spiritually of a position that advocates supporting israel at all costs, regardless of the devastation and civilian casualties? So, spiritually, adventists are on the side of not murdering innocent children?

Full disclosure: i am not a seventh day adventist. The attempts to pigeonhole people into groups based on their lack of support for israel was a big reason why i made this thread.

Nor is this thread about adventism. It is about the fact that Christians are not required to support the modern country of israel, regardless of their denomination. Christians do not lose their salvation by not supporting israel.

Do you disagree with that statement?

For an alternative view on Adventism, this channel is a good place to start:

https://youtube.com/@answeringadventism?si=glYWHxKKFHz3Y-lU

For those who are more readers than video viewers, they have a website as well.

Answering Adventism: Revealing the Gospel Truth

Discover the truth behind Adventism's doctrines and history. Experience a vibrant gospel-oriented platform that celebrates God's grace. Begin your journey now.

answeringadventism.com

Agenda seems to be to oppose adventism at all costs, even if it means defending catholicism. Major red flag.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Sermon from 2012, pastor has a pre trib dispensational world view and STILL acknowledges that zionism is wrong. I don't agree with all his takes, but i think it is important in this thread to show the variety of Christian views that are not zionist.

Questions And Answers Concerning Israel

Questions And Answers Concerning Israel

www.jesus-is-savior.com

Sadly, there is much heresy taught today in America's churches concerning Israel. It is my sincere hope to provide Biblical answers to some of the common questions concerning the chosen nation of Israel. I am not anti-Semitic (i.e., anti-Jew). No Christian can be Anti-Semitic and please the Lord, but I'm also not anti-Arab. God loves all races and we all desperately need the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation is found in the God of Israel (John 4:22); not the false god of filthy and demonic Judaism, but in the holy God of the Bible, by faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 10:43).
...
Is the Nation of Israel Today God's Doing?

No. The Illuminati (via the United Nations) put Israel back on the map as a nation in 1948. The Illuminati is an elite group of occult members, who own the largest banks (e.g., the Rothschild banking cartel) and control the world today through The Council On Foreign Relations. Interestingly, the United Nations was created by The Council On Foreign Relations. Their admitted goal is a New World Order, i.e., a Global Godless Totalitarian Communist Police State. The League Of Nations failed to receive congressional support after World War I, so the globalists caused World War II to get their way (and they did). The UN was born.

World Domination (aka, the New World Order) has been in the works for centuries. In fact, evidence can be traced back to the tower and city of Babel in Genesis 11:7-9, when men attempted to unite together in rebellion against God. If the Lord hadn't stopped them, the Antichrist would have come then I believe. Today, Babel is being continued as the nations of the world are tearing down the racial, language and geographical boundaries which God had established in Genesis 11:7-9 to protect humanity from soon corruption. Modern technology is making the world a smaller place to live each day.

The "Star of David" (the national symbol for Israel today) is a demonic symbol not found in the Scriptures. This symbol is seen in star formation above the eagle on back of every U.S. one-dollar bill, showing that America is under the control of elite Illuminati Jews via Freemasonry. Sound crazy? Take a look at this. The so-called Star of David is two pyramids, one inverted.

“That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and WILL RETURN and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.” —Deuteronomy 30:3

Please read that again... WILL RETURN!!! God promised to regather Israel only when HE RETURNS! As difficult as it is for some people to accept, the nation of Israel today was not placed there by God. Certainly, God in His permissive and sovereign will allowed it, but the restoration of Israel to their Promised Land won't happen until Jesus returns after the 7-year Tribulation Period. Of course, Biblically the Rapture will occur BEFORE the Tribulation Period begins.

And let me say boldly that Israel belongs to God, not the Jews. Leviticus 25:23, “The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.” Unsaved Zionist Jews claim that God promised the land to them; but the Bible says it is God's land upon which He has promised to regather all the saved (Jew and Gentile alike) to live (Galatians 3:26-29). This regathering will happen when Jesus Christ returns at the Second Coming (and not until).

Jerusalem could be leveled tomorrow and it would not go against Biblical prophecy. In fact, it would support it according to Luke 21:24... "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." The Holy Land is God's land. The Zionist certainly aren't a holy people. Jews are the most hateful enemies of Jesus Christ today. And likewise, of the few Jews who are saved, they love Jesus the most. I believe that. Zionism is of the Devil.

The Synagogue of Satan
“I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” (Rev. 2:9-10)


The “Synagogue of Satan” which is the subject of this series must not be confused with the “Remnant” of Jews, who will receive the Lord Jesus Christ at His Second Coming and be saved by Him. The Synagogue of Satan are an occult power elite which, having rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel, conspire to substitute another messiah made in the image of their master, Satan, and to establish a world kingdom under Satan. The Synagogue of Satan claims Jewish descent, but does not fit God's definition of a Jew, either in the Old Testament or the New: “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Romans 2:29)


The Synagogue of Satan have contempt, not only for Jesus Christ, His Church and the Gentile masses, but for the Jewish “Remnant” who are Torah-observant and anti-Zionist and are, therefore, awaiting the kingdom of Israel to be restored when the Messiah appears, and not before. As well, the Synagogue of Satan have conspired to eliminate all people, whether Jew or Gentile, who stand in the way of their world kingdom. To this end they have developed a staggering number of fronts, as well as the capacity to create blinds and diversions, to obscure the fact that they are Cabalist Jews with an anti-Christ agenda. Through the centuries, the Synagogue of Satan have, by means of false identities, infiltrated Gentile institutions where they act as agents provocateurs—undercover agents who provoke violence and beget scandals, which are used to bring reproach upon Jesus Christ and His Church.


Satan is the god of this sinful world (2nd Corinthians 4:4), and he operates secretly through occult organizations such as Freemasonry, Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove, et cetera. Freemasonry, as with Mormonism and other Satanic cults, are rooted in the demonic Jewish Kaballah and sexually-immoral Talmud. This is the synagogue of Satan. Titus 1:14 warns: "Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."

...
Should Jews Be Treated Special?

No, not at all. Acts 10:34 states: "...God is no respecter of persons." Romans 10:12 states: "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek..." Jews are no better, or worse, than anyone else. To teach that Jews are special, and should be treated better than other people, goes contrary to the Scriptures... "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons." Christians are commanded to love Arabs as much as Jews.

I wanted to vomit when I heard a ridiculous Zionist sermon by Pastor James Modlish. Modlish says he'd like to hire a Jew in his ministry to witness only to Jews just to receive God's blessings. That's insane! Poor African-Americans and Hispanics are just as important to God as any Jew. God's blessings are promised to the Christian who labors in the Lord, period (1st Corinthians 3:8). If you labor for Christ as a born-again believer, then you have God's promise of reward.


Concerning Israel, Zechariah 2:8 states: "...for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye." This Scripture has been used exhaustively by Zionists in an attempt to rally support for the nation of Israel in modern times; however, Zechariah is referring to the Tribulation Period, when the Lord will defend Israel and destroy her enemies.

God hasn't defended Israel since the Old Testament, because of their sin and rebellion... "Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble" (Jeremiah 11:14). The only thing Christians should be praying for today concerning Israel is that they would repent toward God from their unbelief and get saved. Israel is a wicked nation today, as is America. Wicked Zionist/Marxist Jews have control over Israel's government. There is no religious freedom.

Matthew 18:4-6 pronounces judgment upon anyone who messes with a Christian...

"Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Jesus clearly warned against mistreating anyone who BELIEVES on Him. Although God will certainly avenge every innocent child, that is not the intended meaning of Matthew 18:4-6. Jesus clearly promised to avenge those who "believe in me." The reason why God promised Abraham in Genesis 12:3 to "bless them that bless thee" and "curse them that curse thee" was because Abraham was a born again Christian (Genesis 15:6) who loved the Lord. Abraham was unquestionably a man of faith (Hebrews 11:8,17). God did not bless Abraham merely because he was Hebrew.

In fact, Deuteronomy 28:15-68 pronounces numerous CURSES upon the Jews if they fail to obey God's commandments. God's promise of blessing upon Israel is conditioned upon their obedience to the Word of God. The same is true of all mankind (Acts 17:30).

We are told in Mark 9:41... "For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward." The emphasis in the New Testament is upon rewarding those who help Christians (i.e., those who "belong to Christ"); and not heathen Jews.

Psalms 94:14, “For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.” Romans 11:1-2 and 19-23 plainly teach that God CUT OFF Israel because of immorality and unbelief; but ANYBODY, Gentile or Jew alike, will be grafted back into God's tree as His people BY FAITH.

God finally said, enough! The Jews were a stiffnecked and rebellious people, saturated with sins (as we are in America today). In 586 BC God gave the Jews into the hands of Babylon for destruction. Only 4,700 Jews returned from Babylon 70 years later.

Some people superstitiously think that they will receive a special reward for giving money or assistance to a natural Jew—no matter how immoral, Godless, or sinful that Jew may be. No such heresy is taught in the Bible. As we read earlier in Romans 2:28,29...

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." —Romans 2:28,29

There is no Biblical obligation for Christians today to help the nation of Israel in any way, form, or fashion. God promised to make of Ishmael "a great nation" (Genesis 21:18) as much as He did to Abraham (Genesis 12:2). The Word of God clearly states that God doesn't view Jews as being any better than Gentiles...

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." —Galatians 3:28

Again, the emphasis is upon the born-again believer, whose sins are washed away by the redeeming literal physical blood of Jesus Christ (1st John 1:7; 1st Peter 1:18,19; Hebrews 9:12; Revelation 1:5). Every genuine born-again believer is "one" in Jesus Christ.

"...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel... That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God" (Romans 9:6,8)

I don't understand so-called "Christian" Zionists who continually demonize the Arabs and whitewash the Jews. The Jews are dirty, rotten, Hell-deserving, sinners just like everybody else (Romans 3:10,19-23; 6:23). The Arab people are the descendents of Abraham, just as are the Jews. As Christians, we must love them all with God's unconditional love. The Bible plainly teaches that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. Once you become a Christian, you are hidden in Christ and are no longer considered a Jew or Gentile.

The Biblical focus then is not upon the Jewish people themselves as being a super race, not at all; but rather, upon the preaching of the Gospel which God entrusted to the nation of Israel to do. Israel was to be God's ambassadors to mankind, but they refused. There is nothing in the Bible which teaches that the Church is expected to financially support heathen Israel, or assist Israel in any capacity. God promised to regather and restore Israel at the Second Coming of Christ, and not before. The notion that Christians today are obligated to financially support a nation that was founded by the theft of Arab homes and land is insane. The so-called nation of Israel today is not of God; but of men. God's promise to restore Israel to the Promised Land is in the "future."

It is ridiculous, as some people today believe, that hurricane Katrina was punishment from God upon America for failing to help Israel. Not so. There are hundreds of reasons why God should punish America (such as for the 53,000,000 murderous abortions), but our relationship to the nation of Israel is not one of them.


Conclusion

God chose Israel as the means by which to BLESS the world with the Word of God, the Savior, the Apostles, salvation, and Christianity itself. This is why the nation of Israel is precious in the eyes of God. However, the Bible plainly states that God is NO respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) and that there is NO difference between the Jew and the Gentile (Romans 10:12).

Christians are not obligated, nor expected to befriend the heathen nation of Israel today.
Only a fool would teach that God's promise of blessings upon Abraham's seed in the Old Testament applies to wicked Christ-rejecting Jews.

Galatians 3:28-29, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” These Scriptures plainly teach that only those who are in Jesus Christ by faith are Abraham's seed according to promise. This is why nearly all Jews today reject the New Testament. It matters not whether you are Jew or Gentile, free or imprisoned, male or female... we are all one in Christ Jesus! Followers of Judaism openly reject Jesus as the Christ and are therefore of the Devil. God blesses those who do good unto those who are in Christ by faith. Galatians 3:26, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

The New Testament teaches that Christians are to focus on the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one (John 4:21, Galatians 4:24-28, Hebrews 12:18-24). We are told in Hebrews 11:13-16 that even Abraham has no further interest in a restored Jewish state on earth, because he is in a much better place in Heaven. How foolish that so many believers today are choked by the cares and riches of this world (Luke 8:14), when they ought to be soulwinners preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to this lost and sinful world.

Everything that God ever did through Israel was with one intent—to bring salvation to the human race. Thanks be to God for the precious redeeming literal blood of Jesus Christ that washes our sins away (1st Peter 1:18,19; Revelation 1:5).


And just to make it abundantly clear, this viewpoint is not from a seventh day adventist, in fact the author is very pro sunday worship

Is the Sabbath Day Still Valid Today?

No. The Sabbath was a ceremonial law given only to a specific people (the Jews), during a specific time period (the Old Testament), in a specific region (Palestine). The Sabbath was an object lesson for the Jews, picturing the coming Messiah in Whom believers rest for salvation. When men cease from their self-righteous labors, and rest upon the redeeming blood sacrifice of the Son of God, they are saved (1st Peter 1:18,19). Colossians 2:14-17 plainly teach that the Old Testament ceremonial laws are no longer applicable concerning Christians or Jews... "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ" (Colossians 2:16-17 — Note: All Scriptures are quoted from the trustworthy King James Bible).

Jesus is our Sabbath today, in Whom we completely rest for salvation. God required the death penalty in the Old Testament for a man who merely picked up some sticks on the sabbath Day (likely to make a fire). Why did God require the man's death? It is because picking up sticks represents Human Effort in salvation, which is a road to Hell. The Sabbath represents resting solely in Christ Jesus for salvation. Adding even one work negates, corrupts and cancels God's free gift of grace. Romans 3:20 warns that no flesh can be justified by the keeping of the Law of God. Salvation is by faith alone!

Today we honor the "Lord's Day" on Sunday, the first day of the week, when Jesus rose from the dead; but this is voluntary and not obligatory. It is grace and not law. It was a much better time in America when stores and shops all drew down their shades on Sunday to prevent window shopping. People used to honor the Lord. We've lost our nation today because we have forsaken the God of the Bible.

 

[phipps]

@ToxicFemininitySucks

Well, im not sure i understand the correct order of events - if satan is loosed to gather the newly resurrected wicked ones and war against the saints wno are in new Jerusalem, then wouldn't new Jerusalem come down (for the 1st and only time) around the same time, not after?

I say after the 1000 years, others say at the end of the 1000 years but its all around that period of time. Satan being loosed from his prison, the wicked being resurrected and the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven all happen at the same time. I'm not good at explaining things very well.

Regardless, we will find out when it happens, i suppose.

True but the Bible tells us too.

I research a variety of doctrines and view points, and see how they match up to, or not, the scriptures.

Its clear you do and we are all supposed to do that as Christians.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

What the dispensationalists did is cut off the 70th week/ 7 literal years and put it more than 2000 years in the future. As I told another Christian Zionist, time is continuos and does doesn't nor cannot be separated by a second let alone by more than 2000 years. Biblically God has never separated time. So the 70 weeks/490 years are continuous and they ended 31/2 years after Jesus' death.

I have a question about this 7 years having already happened topic again.

Does that mean the 42 months/1260 days signaling the first half of the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 11 have a dual application?

Revelation 11
2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will


Revelation was written after Jesus' ministry, and the 3.5 years immediately after. Views on whether it was written before or after the destruction of the temple vary. So rather than prophecy is it a recap of past events, filling in details that were not mentioned in the gospels or Acts? Who were the two witneses?

Or will this happen again in the future?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Sermon from 2012, pastor has a pre trib dispensational world view and STILL acknowledges that zionism is wrong. I don't agree with all his takes, but i think it is important in this thread to show the variety of Christian views that are not zionist.

Questions And Answers Concerning Israel

Questions And Answers Concerning Israel

www.jesus-is-savior.com

Sadly, there is much heresy taught today in America's churches concerning Israel. It is my sincere hope to provide Biblical answers to some of the common questions concerning the chosen nation of Israel. I am not anti-Semitic (i.e., anti-Jew). No Christian can be Anti-Semitic and please the Lord, but I'm also not anti-Arab. God loves all races and we all desperately need the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation is found in the God of Israel (John 4:22); not the false god of filthy and demonic Judaism, but in the holy God of the Bible, by faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 10:43).
...
Is the Nation of Israel Today God's Doing?

No. The Illuminati (via the United Nations) put Israel back on the map as a nation in 1948. The Illuminati is an elite group of occult members, who own the largest banks (e.g., the Rothschild banking cartel) and control the world today through The Council On Foreign Relations. Interestingly, the United Nations was created by The Council On Foreign Relations. Their admitted goal is a New World Order, i.e., a Global Godless Totalitarian Communist Police State. The League Of Nations failed to receive congressional support after World War I, so the globalists caused World War II to get their way (and they did). The UN was born.

World Domination (aka, the New World Order) has been in the works for centuries. In fact, evidence can be traced back to the tower and city of Babel in Genesis 11:7-9, when men attempted to unite together in rebellion against God. If the Lord hadn't stopped them, the Antichrist would have come then I believe. Today, Babel is being continued as the nations of the world are tearing down the racial, language and geographical boundaries which God had established in Genesis 11:7-9 to protect humanity from soon corruption. Modern technology is making the world a smaller place to live each day.

The "Star of David" (the national symbol for Israel today) is a demonic symbol not found in the Scriptures. This symbol is seen in star formation above the eagle on back of every U.S. one-dollar bill, showing that America is under the control of elite Illuminati Jews via Freemasonry. Sound crazy? Take a look at this. The so-called Star of David is two pyramids, one inverted.


Please read that again... WILL RETURN!!! God promised to regather Israel only when HE RETURNS! As difficult as it is for some people to accept, the nation of Israel today was not placed there by God. Certainly, God in His permissive and sovereign will allowed it, but the restoration of Israel to their Promised Land won't happen until Jesus returns after the 7-year Tribulation Period. Of course, Biblically the Rapture will occur BEFORE the Tribulation Period begins.

And let me say boldly that Israel belongs to God, not the Jews. Leviticus 25:23, “The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.” Unsaved Zionist Jews claim that God promised the land to them; but the Bible says it is God's land upon which He has promised to regather all the saved (Jew and Gentile alike) to live (Galatians 3:26-29). This regathering will happen when Jesus Christ returns at the Second Coming (and not until).

Jerusalem could be leveled tomorrow and it would not go against Biblical prophecy. In fact, it would support it according to Luke 21:24... "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." The Holy Land is God's land. The Zionist certainly aren't a holy people. Jews are the most hateful enemies of Jesus Christ today. And likewise, of the few Jews who are saved, they love Jesus the most. I believe that. Zionism is of the Devil.

The Synagogue of Satan
“I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” (Rev. 2:9-10)


The “Synagogue of Satan” which is the subject of this series must not be confused with the “Remnant” of Jews, who will receive the Lord Jesus Christ at His Second Coming and be saved by Him. The Synagogue of Satan are an occult power elite which, having rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel, conspire to substitute another messiah made in the image of their master, Satan, and to establish a world kingdom under Satan. The Synagogue of Satan claims Jewish descent, but does not fit God's definition of a Jew, either in the Old Testament or the New: “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Romans 2:29)


The Synagogue of Satan have contempt, not only for Jesus Christ, His Church and the Gentile masses, but for the Jewish “Remnant” who are Torah-observant and anti-Zionist and are, therefore, awaiting the kingdom of Israel to be restored when the Messiah appears, and not before. As well, the Synagogue of Satan have conspired to eliminate all people, whether Jew or Gentile, who stand in the way of their world kingdom. To this end they have developed a staggering number of fronts, as well as the capacity to create blinds and diversions, to obscure the fact that they are Cabalist Jews with an anti-Christ agenda. Through the centuries, the Synagogue of Satan have, by means of false identities, infiltrated Gentile institutions where they act as agents provocateurs—undercover agents who provoke violence and beget scandals, which are used to bring reproach upon Jesus Christ and His Church.


Satan is the god of this sinful world (2nd Corinthians 4:4), and he operates secretly through occult organizations such as Freemasonry, Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove, et cetera. Freemasonry, as with Mormonism and other Satanic cults, are rooted in the demonic Jewish Kaballah and sexually-immoral Talmud. This is the synagogue of Satan. Titus 1:14 warns: "Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."

...
Should Jews Be Treated Special?

No, not at all. Acts 10:34 states: "...God is no respecter of persons." Romans 10:12 states: "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek..." Jews are no better, or worse, than anyone else. To teach that Jews are special, and should be treated better than other people, goes contrary to the Scriptures... "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons." Christians are commanded to love Arabs as much as Jews.

I wanted to vomit when I heard a ridiculous Zionist sermon by Pastor James Modlish. Modlish says he'd like to hire a Jew in his ministry to witness only to Jews just to receive God's blessings. That's insane! Poor African-Americans and Hispanics are just as important to God as any Jew. God's blessings are promised to the Christian who labors in the Lord, period (1st Corinthians 3:8). If you labor for Christ as a born-again believer, then you have God's promise of reward.


Concerning Israel, Zechariah 2:8 states: "...for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye." This Scripture has been used exhaustively by Zionists in an attempt to rally support for the nation of Israel in modern times; however, Zechariah is referring to the Tribulation Period, when the Lord will defend Israel and destroy her enemies.

God hasn't defended Israel since the Old Testament, because of their sin and rebellion... "Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble" (Jeremiah 11:14). The only thing Christians should be praying for today concerning Israel is that they would repent toward God from their unbelief and get saved. Israel is a wicked nation today, as is America. Wicked Zionist/Marxist Jews have control over Israel's government. There is no religious freedom.

Matthew 18:4-6 pronounces judgment upon anyone who messes with a Christian...


Jesus clearly warned against mistreating anyone who BELIEVES on Him. Although God will certainly avenge every innocent child, that is not the intended meaning of Matthew 18:4-6. Jesus clearly promised to avenge those who "believe in me." The reason why God promised Abraham in Genesis 12:3 to "bless them that bless thee" and "curse them that curse thee" was because Abraham was a born again Christian (Genesis 15:6) who loved the Lord. Abraham was unquestionably a man of faith (Hebrews 11:8,17). God did not bless Abraham merely because he was Hebrew.

In fact, Deuteronomy 28:15-68 pronounces numerous CURSES upon the Jews if they fail to obey God's commandments. God's promise of blessing upon Israel is conditioned upon their obedience to the Word of God. The same is true of all mankind (Acts 17:30).

We are told in Mark 9:41... "For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward." The emphasis in the New Testament is upon rewarding those who help Christians (i.e., those who "belong to Christ"); and not heathen Jews.

Psalms 94:14, “For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.” Romans 11:1-2 and 19-23 plainly teach that God CUT OFF Israel because of immorality and unbelief; but ANYBODY, Gentile or Jew alike, will be grafted back into God's tree as His people BY FAITH.

God finally said, enough! The Jews were a stiffnecked and rebellious people, saturated with sins (as we are in America today). In 586 BC God gave the Jews into the hands of Babylon for destruction. Only 4,700 Jews returned from Babylon 70 years later.

Some people superstitiously think that they will receive a special reward for giving money or assistance to a natural Jew—no matter how immoral, Godless, or sinful that Jew may be. No such heresy is taught in the Bible. As we read earlier in Romans 2:28,29...


There is no Biblical obligation for Christians today to help the nation of Israel in any way, form, or fashion. God promised to make of Ishmael "a great nation" (Genesis 21:18) as much as He did to Abraham (Genesis 12:2). The Word of God clearly states that God doesn't view Jews as being any better than Gentiles...


Again, the emphasis is upon the born-again believer, whose sins are washed away by the redeeming literal physical blood of Jesus Christ (1st John 1:7; 1st Peter 1:18,19; Hebrews 9:12; Revelation 1:5). Every genuine born-again believer is "one" in Jesus Christ.


I don't understand so-called "Christian" Zionists who continually demonize the Arabs and whitewash the Jews. The Jews are dirty, rotten, Hell-deserving, sinners just like everybody else (Romans 3:10,19-23; 6:23). The Arab people are the descendents of Abraham, just as are the Jews. As Christians, we must love them all with God's unconditional love. The Bible plainly teaches that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. Once you become a Christian, you are hidden in Christ and are no longer considered a Jew or Gentile.

The Biblical focus then is not upon the Jewish people themselves as being a super race, not at all; but rather, upon the preaching of the Gospel which God entrusted to the nation of Israel to do. Israel was to be God's ambassadors to mankind, but they refused. There is nothing in the Bible which teaches that the Church is expected to financially support heathen Israel, or assist Israel in any capacity. God promised to regather and restore Israel at the Second Coming of Christ, and not before. The notion that Christians today are obligated to financially support a nation that was founded by the theft of Arab homes and land is insane. The so-called nation of Israel today is not of God; but of men. God's promise to restore Israel to the Promised Land is in the "future."

It is ridiculous, as some people today believe, that hurricane Katrina was punishment from God upon America for failing to help Israel. Not so. There are hundreds of reasons why God should punish America (such as for the 53,000,000 murderous abortions), but our relationship to the nation of Israel is not one of them.


Conclusion

God chose Israel as the means by which to BLESS the world with the Word of God, the Savior, the Apostles, salvation, and Christianity itself. This is why the nation of Israel is precious in the eyes of God. However, the Bible plainly states that God is NO respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) and that there is NO difference between the Jew and the Gentile (Romans 10:12).

Christians are not obligated, nor expected to befriend the heathen nation of Israel today.
Only a fool would teach that God's promise of blessings upon Abraham's seed in the Old Testament applies to wicked Christ-rejecting Jews.

Galatians 3:28-29, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” These Scriptures plainly teach that only those who are in Jesus Christ by faith are Abraham's seed according to promise. This is why nearly all Jews today reject the New Testament. It matters not whether you are Jew or Gentile, free or imprisoned, male or female... we are all one in Christ Jesus! Followers of Judaism openly reject Jesus as the Christ and are therefore of the Devil. God blesses those who do good unto those who are in Christ by faith. Galatians 3:26, “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

The New Testament teaches that Christians are to focus on the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one (John 4:21, Galatians 4:24-28, Hebrews 12:18-24). We are told in Hebrews 11:13-16 that even Abraham has no further interest in a restored Jewish state on earth, because he is in a much better place in Heaven. How foolish that so many believers today are choked by the cares and riches of this world (Luke 8:14), when they ought to be soulwinners preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to this lost and sinful world.

Everything that God ever did through Israel was with one intent—to bring salvation to the human race. Thanks be to God for the precious redeeming literal blood of Jesus Christ that washes our sins away (1st Peter 1:18,19; Revelation 1:5).


And just to make it abundantly clear, this viewpoint is not from a seventh day adventist, in fact the author is very pro sunday worship

Reading the above and considering the two “positions” I can’t help but think of the words of Mr Myagi…



*you might find we agree about more than you realise…

So:

Is it a good thing that the Temple Institute want to build a third Temple?

No - we are the third temple. If they build one, it will be the fourth (a number that speaks of judgement) making Ezekiel’s millennial temple the fifth, the number that speaks of grace.

Is it a good thing that they are close to having the Red Heiffer of an age to sacrifice?

No and no! - Jesus was our perfect sacrifice and the sacrificial system has now been abolished, meaning any sacrifice would be rejected by God.

Does God endorse the goals of political Zionism?

Matthew 23 suggests otherwise -
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

This suggests that the only way that the Jews will return to their full land blessings promised in the OT is if they recognise Jesus as their true Messiah, not “Yeshu” (meaning “let his name be forgotten”).

Is there a second salvation covenant that applies to the Jews?

Some Christian Zionists have lost the plot on this one through wishing to be respectful and supportive. Jesus describes Himself as “The Door” in John 10. There is no other way to eternal life apart from Him.

I could continue but it would be a long post. One final thing though…

I’m sure you are familiar with the law of first mention in the Bible… as far as I can tell, the first mention of “the last days” comes in Genesis 49…

1 And Jacob called his sons and said, “Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:​

2 “Gather together and hear, you sons of Jacob, And listen to Israel your father.​

Genesis 49:1-2 NKJV​

Many of the prophecies to the sons are negative and uncomplimentary have been wondering just how literal God might be in some of the names he uses. Look what Jacob says to the last child…

27 “Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he shall devour the prey, And at night he shall divide the spoil.”​

Genesis 49:27 NKJV​

I have been wondering if our present Israeli government, headed by Benjamin might follow this template e.g:

PM: Massive military force fastest way to end war

“If our friends want to help shorten the war, which is also their war against the barbarism that threatens to sweep the world, they simply have to stand firmly by our side,” Netanyahu said.

m.jpost.com

If it does, any actions beyond the necessary ones that result in loss of innocent lives is not a good thing. All people are loved by God, however when many these people want toe dead and will apparently never give up, what do you do?

Just because something is prophesied does not necessarily mean it is a good thing that God “wants” a person to do it. E.g. Judas in Psalm 109 or Isaiah 17.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I have a question about this 7 years having already happened topic again.

Does that mean the 42 months/1260 days signaling the first half of the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 11 have a dual application?

Revelation 11
2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will


Revelation was written after Jesus' ministry, and the 3.5 years immediately after. Views on whether it was written before or after the destruction of the temple vary. So rather than prophecy is it a recap of past events, filling in details that were not mentioned in the gospels or Acts? Who were the two witneses?

Or will this happen again in the future?

I think there are many examples of dual fulfilment.

If you consider preterism, historicism and futurism, they are actually lenses through which to view prophecy. The failing of many is to discount the value of what can be seen through any particular one as they are all true!

Take the letters to the seven churches in Revelation - they had a preterist application - they were actually relevant letters at the time to those groups. The historicist could point to how closely they related to the unfolding history of the church while the futurist could see how the Laodicean church patterns much of comfortable Western Christianity right now (and see it as a prophetic warning).

I had my best insight into this reading the Hobbit! I liked this dialogue between Gandalf and Bilbo:

Good Morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out further than the brim of his shady hat.​

​

"What do you mean?" he said. "Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?"​

​

"All of them at once," said Bilbo. "And a very fine morning for a pipe of tobacco out of doors, into the bargain.​

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

Reading the above and considering the two “positions” I can’t help but think of the words of Mr Myagi…



*you might find we agree about more than you realise…

Im not sure i follow...
For the record, i think there are more than two positions that can be taken on any issue.

Is it a good thing that the Temple Institute want to build a third Temple?

No - we are the third temple. If they build one, it will be the fourth (a number that speaks of judgement) making Ezekiel’s millennial temple the fifth, the number that speaks of grace.

Is it a good thing that they are close to having the Red Heiffer of an age to sacrifice?

No and no! - Jesus was our perfect sacrifice and the sacrificial system has now been abolished, meaning any sacrifice would be rejected by God.

Why would there be sacrifice during the millenium if Jesus' sacrifice has abolished the sacrificial system?

Does God endorse the goals of political Zionism?

Matthew 23 suggests otherwise -
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

This suggests that the only way that the Jews will return to their full land blessings promised in the OT is if they recognise Jesus as their true Messiah, not “Yeshu” (meaning “let his name be forgotten”).

Which would indicate that Christians are not required to support israel...

Is there a second salvation covenant that applies to the Jews?

Some Christian Zionists have lost the plot on this one through wishing to be respectful and supportive. Jesus describes Himself as “The Door” in John 10. There is no other way to eternal life apart from Him.

True, Jews are not saved automatically without accepting Jesus.
But i don't think anyone is supporting military action against civilians because theyre concerned about the Jews' eternal salvation...

I could continue but it would be a long post. One final thing though…

I’m sure you are familiar with the law of first mention in the Bible… as far as I can tell, the first mention of “the last days” comes in Genesis 49…

1 And Jacob called his sons and said, “Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:​

2 “Gather together and hear, you sons of Jacob, And listen to Israel your father.​

Genesis 49:1-2 NKJV​

Many of the prophecies to the sons are negative and uncomplimentary have been wondering just how literal God might be in some of the names he uses. Look what Jacob says to the last child…

27 “Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he shall devour the prey, And at night he shall divide the spoil.”​

Genesis 49:27 NKJV​

I have been wondering if our present Israeli government, headed by Benjamin might follow this template e.g:

PM: Massive military force fastest way to end war

“If our friends want to help shorten the war, which is also their war against the barbarism that threatens to sweep the world, they simply have to stand firmly by our side,” Netanyahu said.

m.jpost.com

If it does, any actions beyond the necessary ones that result in loss of innocent lives is not a good thing. All people are loved by God, however when many these people want toe dead and will apparently never give up, what do you do?

Just because something is prophesied does not necessarily mean it is a good thing that God “wants” a person to do it. E.g. Judas in Psalm 109 or Isaiah 17.

The tribe of Benjamin is prophesied to be warlike, yes.
But i'm not seeing how a man named benjamin is to be automaticaly connected with the ancient Israelite tribe, any more than the modern country of israel is not the same as the Israel in the Bible.

Some of the actions taken by the israeli army, such as having newborns be abandoned to die in a hospital, point to a blatant disregard for human life. Did they think there were bombs hidden in the newborns or why not make sure they would be taken care of? It's obvious they don't regard the Palestinians as human, netenyahus comments regarding amalek make that clear.

Simply put, israel's defense systems must have known the attack was coming, and they allowed it. As a pretext to then indiscriminately kill the population? Quite possibly.

All im saying in this thread is that as Christians we are not required to support this. To do so turns a blind eye to human suffering and requires an extreme hardening of the heart. I wonder if someone who hardens their heart so much will not have a warped conscience, in order to escape the cognitive dissonance.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

The failing of many is to discount the value of what can be seen through any particular one as they are all true!

Interesting take. Dual (or more) applications would point to that.

Take the letters to the seven churches in Revelation - they had a preterist application - they were actually relevant letters at the time to those groups. The historicist could point to how closely they related to the unfolding history of the church while the futurist could see how the Laodicean church patterns much of comfortable Western Christianity right now (and see it as a prophetic warning).

I do believe the letters to the seven churches have multiple applications.
Sadly, the futurist interpretation for the letters lends itself to bad doctrine, such as saying everything during the Philadelphia age was good, or purposely turning our back to social issues in order to avoid being "laodicean".

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

…Sadly, the futurist interpretation for the letters lends itself to bad doctrine, such as saying everything during the Philadelphia age was good, or purposely turning our back to social issues in order to avoid being "laodicean".

With respect to bad futurist interpretations, I think this quote covers God’s role pretty well..