No, all those that refuse the mark of the beast will be sealed by God whether they survive the persecutions or not (Revelation 7:1-4, 14:1). All God's people since creation have always been sealed (2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, 4:30). Those that survive the persecutions and and who will be around when the plagues fall on the unsaved, will be divinely protected by God. Btw I'm not the one saying this, its the Word of God that says it.Ok, so to summarize what you are saying, there will be intense persecution and pressure (to the point of death in some/many cases) to take the mark, and those that survive this pressure and persecution will then be sealed by God and protected from being affected by the plagues. Is this accurately what you are saying?
This is another man made doctrine from dispensationalism. They lifted the last week (seven years) of the tribulation from the book of Daniel and took it out of context completely.Are you saying that Daniel's 70th week does not refer to the tribulation?
Yes. In biblical symbolic language a day symbolises a literal year.If I understood one of your earlier posts correctly, you are saying that references to 1260 days refer to years not days, correct?
I do not presume damnation of anyone. God will judge us all according to how much we knew and what we did with it. But you know we were discussing Christians who go to Church and sometimes read the Bible but believe in false doctrines because they do not search and study the Bible for themselves.We must be careful to not presume damnation on others who have believed on Jesus Christ's death, burial and resurrection and grace through faith. Especially in the past, when many were illiterate (and could not study the scriptures) yet believed and were martyred.
There is one truth in the Bible to any subject. Pre-trib is a false doctrine and contrary to God's truth.I agree, which is why I am not claiming the pre trib rapture doctrine as fact. It is one interpretation.
Most false doctrine is insidious because its mixed with the truth. Do not think you are not gullible by studying a false doctrine but thinking you're above being led to believe in it. Once we find out that a doctrine is false we should not indulge one more second studying it. That's how the devil gets us!Yes, by their fruits we shall know them.
Clearly any cult leader who teaches literal suicide is not a prophet of God. There are also many pastors/teachers who teach things that contradict scripture, like properity gospel, to name one.
And I definitely spend much more time reading the Bible than reading about it.
The false doctrine has given them a way out if they don't make it the first time. If they fail at first, try and try again. That's how.See, that's the part that makes no sense. How can someone simultaneouly think they'll get another chance while at the same time wanting to be raptured because they don't want to go through the tribulation?
I see your point but do you think every one who believes in the rapture doctrine thinks like you?I can see the scenario that if they believe in the tribulation and it doesn't happen they lose their faith. While that is unfortunate, I can see how that makes sense. But it doesn't make sense to believe in it while thinking there is another chance. Especially knowing that things will get more difficult for Christians during the tribulation.
I don't doubt that is what the pastors you've watched preach but the message also says they have another chance to be saved. When I found out about this false doctrine and that millions of Christians believe in it, I was shocked. The doctrine is pleasing to the carnal heart of man but is completely false. Anyway the entire pre-trib doctrine which is dispensationalist is all false and has mixed up and twisted scripture.Every pastor I have ever watched that teaches pre-trib rapture has taught that the time to get saved and follow Jesus is RIGHT NOW. I have never seen one say any variation of "you have another chance later". And the emphasis on evangelization is also based on the fact that it is better to reach non-believers NOW than to hope they change their mind during the tribulation.
Agree.Exactly. We must have a love of the truth and study the Bible.
2Thess 2
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Yes, thats what i meant to ask.Those that survive the persecutions and and who will be around when the plagues fall on the unsaved, will be divinely protected by God.
Are you saying there was 3 and a half years between the resurrection and when exactly? When Stephen was martyred and the disciples scattered? When Saul/Paul was converted and became the apostle to the gentiles? When Peter was told nothing was unclean?They lifted the last week (seven years) of the tribulation from the book of Daniel and took it out of context completely.
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According to the Bible, the ministry of Jesus lasted for three and a half years then He was crucified. In the middle of the week (seven years) Jesus was crucified which brought an end to sacrifice and offering which refers to the sanctuary/temple system and its ceremonies that were about Jesus' ministry and death. Its no coincidence that Jesus died during the passover where the Jews sacrificed a lamb that represented the crucifixion of Christ. In 1 Corinthians 5:7 Paul wrote, “For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.” Christ’s sacrifice fulfilled the Passover feast. He was the Passover Lamb. The Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. Jesus' death brought an end to sacrifices that is why the veil in the temple that separated the holy and most holy rooms was ripped in two from top to bottom (Matthew 27:50-51). In this way, God demonstrated that the Jewish sacrificial system with its rites and ceremonies had ended. Atonement for sins was only available through Christ, and the symbolic practices had been fulfilled through Christ.
Another three and a half years would lead up to the end of the 70 weeks and the end of Jewish probation. During that three and a half years the disciples mainly preached the gospel to the Jews. At the end of the probation the Jews had rejected the Messiah and the gospel message and were no longer God's people just as Daniel had predicted. From then on Jews could be saved only as individuals, in exactly the same way as the Gentiles. As a nation they were no longer a chosen people. Jesus told them, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” (Matthew 23:37-39).
Interesting.By this devious manipulation of God's Word, the rapturists believe they have extended the Jewish probation; and based upon this, they teach that all the fleshly Jews will be saved in a great second chance after the "rapture" takes place
But in Matt24The tragedy of the rapture doctrine is that it takes these beautiful verses of Daniel 9:24-27 that predict the first advent of Jesus, and crucifixion, and apply them to the antichrist. They do this by stating that it is the antichrist that causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease after three and a half years. But Daniel states that it is Jesus who caused the sacrificial system of the Jews to cease when He died on the cross. A misinterpretation that confuses something Christ has done, and applies it to the devil instead, is certainly a tragic occurrence. And yet this is the only way one can arrive at a seven-year tribulation period.
The issue is that in the Bible sometimes a day means a day (like Jesus being dead three literal days), and sometimes it means 1000 years (2Pet3:8).Yes. In biblical symbolic language a day symbolises a literal year.
Yes. Now if a Christian DOES search and study the Bible that would mean there is nothing to be concerned about if there does not appear to be completely irrefutable proof of a doctrine.I do not presume damnation of anyone. God will judge us all according to how much we knew and what we did with it. But you know we were discussing Christians who go to Church and sometimes read the Bible but believe in false doctrines because they do not search and study the Bible for themselves.
No, of course not. If they did they would study the Bible diligently. But there are some that do, and they believe that is what the Bible teaches, not just heasay from a pastor.I see your point but do you think every one who believes in the rapture doctrine thinks like you?
I am put in mind of going looking for a pack of biscuits my wife told me was in the pantry. I knew exactly What they looked like as I had seen the packet many times. I can remember a shouted conversation up the stairs while she was drying her hair, where she told me they were there and I flatly contradicted that idea! After a couple of minutes, she came down and staid, pointing “there!”. Sure enough, they were… right in front of me in a packet I wasn’t expecting!Yes, thats what i meant to ask.
Are you saying there was 3 and a half years between the resurrection and when exactly? When Stephen was martyred and the disciples scattered? When Saul/Paul was converted and became the apostle to the gentiles? When Peter was told nothing was unclean?
Where are you getting the dates from? Verses that show the dates please.
Interesting.
So although the rapture doctrine has been popularized (though not invented) by zionists, they intend to deceive the Jews that they will have a chance to be saved during the tribulation.
I say "have a chance" because not every pre-trib teacher teaches automatic Jewish salvation at all, though I am aware that some do.
But in Matt24
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand ) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains
After the crucifixion the disciples were not told to flee to the mountains. And after the resurrection they were told to stay in Jerusalem until Pentecost.
Also Dan 11
31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
If Jesus stopping the sacrifice system by his one time perfect sacrifice is what is referred to in Dan9:25-27, is this reference to a different abomination of desolation? Clearly these verses are not referring to Jesus.
Not to mention that there is a historical application to the verses, both before Jesus with Antiochus Epiphanes and after, when the temple was destroyed (which was an appropriate time to flee to the mountains, and from what I have read, the reason why many believers survived). But my point is the historical applications indicate that the abomination of desolation is a bad thing.
The issue is that in the Bible sometimes a day means a day (like Jesus being dead three literal days), and sometimes it means 1000 years (2Pet3:8).
How do we figure the 1260 days mentioned in Revelation are years?
Yes. Now if a Christian DOES search and study the Bible that would mean there is nothing to be concerned about if there does not appear to be completely irrefutable proof of a doctrine.
Regardless if someone is pre-trib or not I would encourage them to study the Bible for themselves. Sadly, many won't. So then if they are going to go by what their pastor teaches only, it appears to be a matter of chance, did they wind up at the "correct" church.
No, of course not. If they did they would study the Bible diligently. But there are some that do, and they believe that is what the Bible teaches, not just heasay from a pastor.
That's explosive! Talk about putting someone into a deep sleep! I hope the inquirer went back and read the text (Revelation 14:9-11) for himself. Someone should take McArthur to task on this.Another thing that just occured to me: if pastors teach that it is possible to repent of the mark it may lead people into falsely taking it. I don't know what everyone's opinion is of John Mac Arthur, but in one of his sermons he claimed it is possible to repent the mark.
Sept 24 1980
Bible Questions and Answers, Part 11
JOHN: We are so blessed to be together again tonight, and we have about an hour – and hour and a few minutes to share together. The apostle Paul went into a city, and he reasoned with them outwww.gty.org
I know this sermon is old, but if it does not reflect his current beliefs of teachings why is it still on his site?
Also, I believe he is incorrect. IF there is a rapture, there still is salvation for those who are left if they come to Christ, but they must either endure or be martyred. The Bible does not teach repentance from the mark.
You gave me a good laugh!....instead of fantasizing about an unscriptrual "get out of jail free" card that will never happen according to God.
That is why i bumped this thread because we needed to have an honest conversation about this. Things are accelerating and we cannot afford to pretend that when things are super hard, that there won't be people falling away because they expected to be raptured out of a situation and it didn't happen.If my understanding is incorrect on this and the events of Daniel 9:27 occur while I’m still here, then I would not abandon my faith since my faith was never in some kind of spiritual “get-out-of-jail free” card. It is in Jesus. Plenty of people in the times we live face tribulation and death for their faith whether they hold a pre-trib view or not!
The “system” without the Beast is like a car without a driver. Until tha Antichrist steps in and strengthens a covenant between Israel and “the many” (whoever they turn out to be) for a period of 7 years, the clock will not have started ticking. Once that happens, if I’m still here, I would probably have to concede to a mid-trib / pre-wrath position, but that would have not one jot of effect on my faith.That's explosive! Talk about putting someone into a deep sleep! I hope the inquirer went back and read the text (Revelation 14:9-11) for himself. Someone should take McArthur to task on this.
You gave me a good laugh!
That is why i bumped this thread because we needed to have an honest conversation about this. Things are accelerating and we cannot afford to pretend that when things are super hard, that there won't be people falling away because they expected to be raptured out of a situation and it didn't happen.
When things described in this clip happen and we are all still here, it will be safe to consider the theory debunked.
You probably won't like what i will say but hear me out....The “system” without the Beast is like a car without a driver. Until tha Antichrist steps in and strengthens a covenant between Israel and “the many” (whoever they turn out to be) for a period of 7 years, the clock will not have started ticking. Once that happens, if I’m still here, I would probably have to concede to a mid-trib / pre-wrath position, but that would have not one jot of effect on my faith.
I love the Rothschilds conspiracy angle - it reminds me for all the world of Shift, Rishta Taarkan and Ginger the cat in The Last Battle.You probably won't like what i will say but hear me out....
The dispensationalist view is too Israel-centric and that is already suspect, for me. Everything revolves around Israel, it's creation, the temple being built and subsequently the antichrist storming into it etc. Lately, it seems to me that this particular eschatological view curiously and seamlessly syncs with NWO plans, such as the world government supposedly moving to Israel. I mean, Jacques Attali (Macron's adviser) publicly said this on tv.
Anyway, imagine if we all awoke tomorrow to find that the mark of the beast is rolling out and worship of the image is mandatory, heads of refuseniks are rolling....all the while there is no temple erected in Israel and no AC storming into it. I think that will be a shock to many christians.
That said, while there are these different eschatological views within Christendom, remember there are countless religions in the world whose adherents are also waiting for their respective prophectic fulfilments. How many times have we been told on this forum that the Christian bible is corrupted and cannot be trusted? A recent claim that has gained some traction is that the Rothschilds wrote the Book of Revelation as some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. There won't be disillusionment only within the Christian body but in the breadth of various religious persuasions when only God's truth is vindicated.
I find their claim disingenuous to be honest because once that is said, they never go on to explain as to why the Rothschilds and the rest of that 'WEF' terrorist group would write themselves as defeated in the end.A recent claim that has gained some traction is that the Rothschilds wrote the Book of Revelation as some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.
The beginning of the 70th week was the beginning of Jesus' ministry. Then in the middle of the week He was crucified which brought an end to sacrifices and offerings. Then as I posted there were three and a half years left in which the apostles preached the gospel to the Jews mainly. The end of the 70th week was when Stephen was martyred. Before Stephen was stoned, he gave a powerful message to the Jews who falsely accused him (Acts 7:2-53). It was an apt message to the Jews about their hardened hearts. In Acts 7:51-53 he said, "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.” Doesn't this sound like what Jesus told the Jews in Matthew 23:37-39?Are you saying there was 3 and a half years between the resurrection and when exactly? When Stephen was martyred and the disciples scattered? When Saul/Paul was converted and became the apostle to the gentiles? When Peter was told nothing was unclean?
I didn't put any dates in my post nor are there no dates in the Bible. All the dates are based on history. Let me explain.Where are you getting the dates from? Verses that show the dates please.
The dispensationalists who invented the rapture doctrine were zionists. Yes, they deceive Jews that they will all be saved during the tribulation. According to them the Jews are still chosen and are therefore more special than Gentiles which is not biblical. In the New Covenant all those who accept Jesus as their personal Saviour, submit and live according to His will are chosen. Plus God doesn't play favourites with us.Interesting.
So although the rapture doctrine has been popularized (though not invented) by zionists, they intend to deceive the Jews that they will have a chance to be saved during the tribulation.
It doesn't matter what they teach, the whole doctrine is false. They should stop teaching pre-trib all together and teach biblical truth with no error mixed in.I say "have a chance" because not every pre-trib teacher teaches automatic Jewish salvation at all, though I am aware that some do.
Matthew 24 is a dual prophecy. Dual prophecy means that because God is not linear in the way He does things, He can speak, and one prophecy can have different applications. In Matthew 24 Jesus foretold the signs of the second coming but He also covered several phases of history with one answer. The abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet that Jesus referred to happened back in the time of the Apostles.
No, they were not told to flee the mountains because that wasn't when Jerusalem was destroyed, that happened three decades later.After the crucifixion the disciples were not told to flee to the mountains. And after the resurrection they were told to stay in Jerusalem until Pentecost.
In the Bible there are three abominations of desolation. There was an abomination of desolation in Daniel's day by the Babylonians, then the second one by the Romans (discussed above) then there is a third one (the final one) referenced in Daniel 8:13; 11:31; and 12:11 which will involve the whole earth. These verses predict the formation and ascension of power of the Papacy, aka the beast and mystery Babylon in Revelation.Also Dan 11
31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
If Jesus stopping the sacrifice system by his one time perfect sacrifice is what is referred to in Dan9:25-27, is this reference to a different abomination of desolation? Clearly these verses are not referring to Jesus.
The teaching that the abomination of desolation was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes does not harmonise with biblical doctrine at all. He does not meet the specifications of abominations of desolation in the Bible. I will mention one specification which is that the abominations of desolations always involved the complete destruction of the temple which was the centre of worship because of the Jews' disobedience and idolatry. Antiochus Epiphanes did not destroy the temple in Jerusalem.Not to mention that there is a historical application to the verses, both before Jesus with Antiochus Epiphanes and after, when the temple was destroyed (which was an appropriate time to flee to the mountains, and from what I have read, the reason why many believers survived). But my point is the historical applications indicate that the abomination of desolation is a bad thing.
Jesus being dead for three days was literal nor was symbolic/figurative language used for the events of His death and resurrection. A day symbolises a literal year in biblical prophetic symbolic language.The issue is that in the Bible sometimes a day means a day (like Jesus being dead three literal days), and sometimes it means 1000 years (2Pet3:8).
How do we figure the 1260 days mentioned in Revelation are years?
If a Christian searches the Bible prayerfully and earnestly everyday, God will lead them to the truth of His Word or to someone who will point them to the truth of His Word. Whichever way God sees fit.Yes. Now if a Christian DOES search and study the Bible that would mean there is nothing to be concerned about if there does not appear to be completely irrefutable proof of a doctrine.
Absolutely. We should always study the Bible as long as we don't approach the Word of God to confirm our doctrines but to let God show us His truth. That's why we should always pray before we study the Bible.Regardless if someone is pre-trib or not I would encourage them to study the Bible for themselves. Sadly, many won't. So then if they are going to go by what their pastor teaches only, it appears to be a matter of chance, did they wind up at the "correct" church.
That is because that is what was taught to them. They study the Bible believing that is the truth and are not looking for a different interpretation.No, of course not. If they did they would study the Bible diligently. But there are some that do, and they believe that is what the Bible teaches, not just heasay from a pastor.
This verse is even better...Doesn't this verse by itself end any and all pre-trib (or mid-trib) rapture fantasies?
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and THEN he shall reward EVERY man according to his WORKS.
I have had a few situations like that for sure, both literally like that and while searching the Bible.I am put in mind of going looking for a pack of biscuits my wife told me was in the pantry. I knew exactly What they looked like as I had seen the packet many times. I can remember a shouted conversation up the stairs while she was drying her hair, where she told me they were there and I flatly contradicted that idea! After a couple of minutes, she came down and staid, pointing “there!”. Sure enough, they were… right in front of me in a packet I wasn’t expecting!
My point is that we can be so sure we have particular things figured out we can’t see what is right in front of us.
Interesting!Just looking into the 1260 days [years] from the Adventist position….
How are we to understand vaccine hesitancy? Might the church play a constructive role with its members and the surrounding communities in decreasing the suspicion and even countering the misinformation?
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There is nothing new about people being hesitant about medical treatments and vaccines. The pandemic, however, has made it imperative that most of us get vaccinated to achieve herd immunity.
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Disinformation, which is strategically and deliberately spread false information; misinformation, which is false information, not necessarily shared with intent to mislead; and mistrust, which denotes more than the lack of trust but suspicion of ill intent, commonly referred to as “conspiracy theories” — these fuel fear, promote avoidance, and become the “rationale” to be hesitant about the vaccination process. Conspiracy beliefs are “attempts to explain the ultimate cause of an event … as a secret plot by a covert alliance of powerful individuals or organizations, rather than as an overt activity or natural occurrence. It can be difficult to persuasively present evidence to refute these types of ideas, especially because experts are often seen as part of the conspiracy, and new pieces of contrary evidence can be rationalized into an existing narrative.”4
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Could the church help in addressing vaccination hesitancy, misinformation, and even addressing conspiracy beliefs? In fact, the organized church and members are already helping by providing written statements and information pieces, disseminating accurate information, and providing vaccination sites. Could the church help by more directly addressing the fears/avoidance of vaccine hesitation? I believe we could.
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Post pictures on social media of church leaders from all ethnic groups in your community taking the vaccine. Open your church to be a vaccination site, especially if located in a poor part of your community.
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Use the pulpit to speak about the importance of getting vaccinated, framing it as an expression of caring for others as part of our Christian duty to protect the community. Frame the message in the context of the church’s theology of health.
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public health leader from the World Health Organization came to Loma Linda University to participate.
He's got a lot of followers, a lot of lawyers and masonic connections.Someone should take McArthur to task on this.
Welcome to the John Macarthur Cult Watch Forum. Watchman Wakes in Vain fully exposes John Fullerton Macarthur. Examine evidence that Macarthur is a Jew, a Freemason, and an intelligence operative who was born into an elite Masonic lineage which included his Great Grandfather, Thomas Fullerton, for whom he's named and who was the Grand Master of the Grand Masonic Lodge of Canada. Macarthur and his church leaders are Jewish and his spiritual mentor was Rabbi Charles Feinberg. His financier, Lorena Jaeb, was a Governor of the treasonous Council for National Policy. Macarthur's teachings are heretical; he denies the power of the blood of Jesus Christ and with his "Lordship Salvation," the gospel of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. He is even now teaching that taking the Mark of the Beast is OK and forgiveable! Macarthur had a close association with 1960's black civil rights radicals which led to his presence at the Lorraine Motel on the day Martin Luther King was assassinated and to his arrest a short while later! Macarthur's Masters University and Masters Seminary are both on probation as Macarthur leads his own personal crime family (see his son and son-in-law's nefarious activities). Macarthur is on TV and on 1000 radio stations daily. He has published hundreds of books (none of which he's written) including his own bible. Macarthur is dangerous and is now preparing his "left behind" followers to worship the Antichrist and to take his Mark. Be wary and watchful of this heretical hireling as he continues to deceive millions to Hell through his vast international "ministry
I don't want to upset anybody, but since we are discussing the mark i thought this was relevant.
The adventist church (as an organization, not saying all individual members) appears to be all in on the pandemic/v@x narrative.
The Psychology of Vaccine Hesitancy | Adventist World
Can the church help? Some tips on how to converse with those who speak against COVID-19 vaccination.www.adventistworld.org
I know this wasnt directed at me, but i wanted to give some of my thoughts.Is it far fetched to think we may have been born after the rapture? Let's say our History has been falsified and it took place during what we know as the black plague for example, what are the ressources in scriptures we can find that would argue against such a scenario?
In short, i am not endorsing this guy's preterist interpretation, but found it interesting regardless.
An artistic depiction of the army in the clouds in A.D. 66.
The first-century Jewish historian Josephus describes a heavenly army in the clouds much like the army Jesus leads in Revelation 19:11-14. This event is also recorded by other historians. The first-century pagan historian Tacitus also mentions this event: “In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.”2 Pseudo-Hegesippus also describes the coming of Christ on the clouds with His mighty angels at that time when he writes, “A certain figure appeared of tremendous size, which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed, and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen in the clouds chariots in the clouds and armed battle arrays by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded.”3 The medieval Jewish historian Sepher Yosippon expounds upon this angelic army in the sky of A.D. 66 by saying, “Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire.”4 The parallels between these three accounts and Revelation 19 are striking. However, in Yosippon’s account one can see how 2 Thessalonians 1:7 was explicitly and LITERALLY fulfilled in A.D. 66: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”
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Perhaps you might now be asking yourself, “Was the parousia in A.D. 66 or in A.D. 70?” This is the wrong question to ask. Parousia is a Greek word meaning presence or coming. Parousia is a word used to denote the arrival of a conquering general, emperor or high-ranking official into a city for an extended stay oftentimes for several months or years before often returning to the capital city, the seat of his throne. For example, Nero Caesar’s Parousia in Greece lasted for years. Nero arrived in Greece in A.D. 66 and stayed until late A.D. 67 or early A.D. 68. The word connotes a coming and an extended presence or stay often followed by a subsequent departure. When people think of the parousia, they often picture a one-time, brief appearance of Christ on the clouds. However, this term generally connotes a coming and an extended stay or presence as is illustrated by the way Parousia is also used in Philippians 2:12. Thus Jesus’ second coming or Parousia also appears to be a coming with an extended stay or presence.
As is implied by the Greek word often translated “second coming” in the New Testament, the second coming or Parousia was a coming with a lengthy stay. Thus I believe that the Parousia or second coming began at the very start of the Jewish War in Iyyar of A.D. 66 when the Jews first began their revolt against Rome and continued until the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of its Temple in A.D. 70. Recall that it was also at the very start of the Jewish revolt, Iyyar of A.D. 66, that Jesus was seen approaching Jerusalem on the clouds of heaven with His mighty angels. This Parousia (presence or coming) then continued until A.D. 70 at the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple.
The fact that Jesus was to come in A.D. 66 at the start of the Jewish War rather than arriving in A.D. 70 at the end of the war is also implied by the fact that Jesus said He was to “come on the clouds” during the Parousia. The fact that Jesus says that He was going to “come on the clouds” is an allusion to the Old Testament when God had come on the clouds in judgment on nations in the past as was the case, for example, when God came on the clouds in judgment on Egypt with the Assyrians and Babylonians in Old Testament history (Isaiah 19). The fact that Jesus implied that He was going to come on the clouds suggests that He was also going to come in judgment. And if Jesus was going to come in judgment this implies that He was to come when the judgment began, not after it was already over. God judged Jerusalem and apostate Israel during its first-century war with Rome from A.D. 66 to A.D. 70. Thus if Jesus was going to come on the clouds in judgment on Israel one would expect Him to come in A.D. 66 when that judgment began, not first arrive at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 when this judgment was believed to be over.
I agree that Stephen's sermon was very reminiscent of Jesus'.The beginning of the 70th week was the beginning of Jesus' ministry. Then in the middle of the week He was crucified which brought an end to sacrifices and offerings. Then as I posted there were three and a half years left in which the apostles preached the gospel to the Jews mainly. The end of the 70th week was when Stephen was martyred. Before Stephen was stoned, he gave a powerful message to the Jews who falsely accused him (Acts 7:2-53). It was an apt message to the Jews about their hardened hearts. In Acts 7:51-53 he said, "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.” Doesn't this sound like what Jesus told the Jews in Matthew 23:37-39?
After that the apostles began preaching the gospel to the Gentiles because the Jews had rejected Christ for the last time. God now counts people of all nationalities who accept and serve Him as spiritual Jews. They have become His chosen people, “heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:27-29). Spiritual Jews, of course, include Jewish people who individually accept and serve Jesus (Romans 2:28-29).
I didn't put any dates in my post nor are there no dates in the Bible. All the dates are based on history. Let me explain.
Acts 7:5661But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 63Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Anyway, I agree that after the stoning of Stephen the Jews in Jerusalem were no longer the focus of the ministry. But rather than immediately go to the gentiles weren't the Jews of the diaspora the next focus?55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Does the eunuch of Acts 8:27-8:38 (who was reading Isaiah, so even though he was ethnically Ethiopian was he already a jewish convert) being taught by Philip indicate that the focus is now gentiles? Or was it the centurion's vision in Acts 10 that would indicate a gentile focus?19Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only
The problem is, while believers may have stopped sacrificing, there is no indication that Jews who did not believe stopped sacrificing until they were forced to at the time of the temple's destruction.It was at His death that put an end to the system of offerings practised by Israel for so many years.
No, it was popularized and spread by Darby and Scofield in the modern era, but variations of the rapture doctrine have existed since the early church days a couple generations removed from the apostles. Since before Nicaea and a paganized form of Christianity becoming state religion.The dispensationalists who invented the rapture doctrine were zionists.
I agree.one prophecy can have different applications
But he did sit jn the temple and declare himself to be God. I disagree that Dan11 does not apply to Epiphanes.Epiphanes did not destroy the temple in Jerusalem.
So rather than a physical temple being destroyed what would be made desolate?Yes abominations of desolation are very bad news but one more is to come at the end times. This time it will involve the whole earth. There will be no physical temple of course. Paul called God’s church the temple of God
I take it you don't believe in the "church ages" doctrine, and that we are now in the lukewarm Laodicean era, in which there is no true church left and Jesus stands outside knocking to be let in?No one winds up in the right church by chance. And there is one now and until Jesus returns as there has always been since creation.
I do want to sincerely thank you for taking the time to patiently answer all my questions. You've given me much to think about in regards to my Bible studies.14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches