Did Jesus Exist? All Scholars Agree He “Certainly” Existed

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
12,041
I came across an article earlier that really interested me…


The above was well worth a read, and led me onto another historical investigation…

Gary Habermas on 6 Skeptics-Approved Facts That Prove Jesus' Resurrection

By Anugrah Kumar, Christian Post Contributor

Gary Habermas


Gary Habermas, distinguished research professor and chair of the Department of Philosophy and Theology at Liberty University and visiting professor at Southern Evangelical Seminary, presenting on "Jesus' Resurrection for Skeptics," at the Southern Evangelical Seminary's 21st Annual National Conference on Christian Apologetics, Charlotte, N.C., Oct. 10, 2014. | (Photo: The Christian Post/Napp Nazworth)

Speaking at the Southern Evangelical Seminary's annual National Conference on Christian Apologetics, Christian philosopher and historian Gary Habermas shared historical facts that a vast majority of scholars, including even skeptics, do not dispute — facts that are the basis for proving Jesus' boldly resurrection.

"Of what did earliest preaching consist before there was a single New Testament book? What did the earliest Christian preaching look like before any books were written?" Habermas, a New Testament scholar, asked the audience, explaining that he would talk about what the first 20 years after Jesus' Crucifixion looked like.

Oral testimonies are important as evidence of a historical event, he said Saturday at what's known as America's largest and longest-running apologetics conference. He added that studies have shown that if you have special reasons to remember special events, you'll remember it more carefully for a longer period of time.

Habermas, the distinguished research professor and chair of the Department of Philosophy and Theology at Liberty University, said there are some historical facts that even critics "allow," referring to the minimal facts theory. "Two arguments for what makes a minimal fact include only those historical data that are strongly evidenced by multiple independent lines of argumentation, and only those data which are accepted as historical by virtually all historical scholars," he explained.

The six strongest evidences to support the resurrection, which are not denied even by critics, are ones about which no scholar has debated him, said Habermas, who has authored several books.

These include Jesus died by crucifixion; Jesus' disciples had real experiences that they thought were appearances of Jesus; the disciples were transformed even to the point of being willing to die for their message; James, the brother of Jesus, had real experience wherein he thought he had an appearance of Jesus; Paul also had a similar appearance of Jesus and converted; and the message was proclaimed within one or two years from the crucifixion.

Other facts which are also accepted by scholars, including skeptics though not with an overwhelming majority, include Christians' talk of the resurrection of Jesus appears to be of bodily in nature; Jesus was buried, the disciples despaired after the crucifixion thinking that all hope was lost; the tomb was empty; Sunday became the primary day of worship; and Jesus predicted His resurrection appearances ahead of time.

However, scholars say there's no way history can prove a miracle, he said, adding that "what they're not telling you is … history can show you events occurred," but only philosophy and theology can construct an argument that it could only have come from God's hand. "Historians don't have any test called a miracle test."

For example, some can say that Jesus' disciples having experiences that they thought were appearances of Jesus is a fact, but not necessarily actual resurrection, Habermas said.

To prove the resurrection, "naturalistic theories need to fail," he went on to say, adding that "naturalistic alternatives need to be destroyed." But Jesus having predicted His resurrection is a "divine action pattern" all by itself, he argued. This matters all the more considering who Jesus is, as He remains unmatched among all key figures in all religions, the apologist said.
 

A Freeman

Star
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
3,724
Along with the atheists and agnostics, there are many "Muslims" (unbelievers really) that do not believe that the crucifixion and resurrection took place, even though the Koran (Quran) COMMANDS its readers to read, study and put into action The Law (Old Covenant) and Gospel (New Covenant), which God has guaranteed have been safe-guarded and kept secure.


Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarite, whom ye crucified, WHOM GOD RAISED FROM THE DEAD, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. THIS is the Stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the Head of the Corner (Matt. 21:42). Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
--Acts 4:10-12

2000 years ago, a miracle child was born to a virgin, to set Him apart from everyone else, so people would take notice of Him and HEAR Him (Mark 9:7).

The miracle birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary is prophesied in the Old Covenant (Isa. 7:14), fulfilled and recorded in the New Covenant (Matt. 1:18-23, Luke 1:27-35), and CONFIRMED in the Koran (Sura 3:42-47, 19:16-37). We literally changed the way we keep time on this planet because of this miracle. Who then could do more wrong than to ignore such Clear Signs from our Lord?

B.C. = Before Christ

A.D. = Anno Domini = in the year of our Lord

Similarly, the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is prophesied in the Old Covenant (Ps. 22, Isa. 53:1-11, Dan. 9:25-27, Zech. 11:11-13) and New Covenant (Matt. 12:39-40, 20:17-19, 26:2, Mark 9:31, 10:32-34), fulfilled and recorded in the New Covenant (Matt. 27, Mark 15:17-16:8, John 19:14-21:25), and CONFIRMED in the Koran (Sura 3:55, 4:157-158, 6:122, 19:33-34).

We also have recorded in the Bible, which the Koran was sent to CONFIRM (not to contradict), a list of eyewitnesses to both the crucifixion and resurrection.


Witnesses to the crucifixion of Jesus:

– Joseph of Arimathaea, Jesus' great-uncle, who claimed the body (Matt. 27:57-60, Mark 15:43-46, Luke 23:50-53, John 19:38)

– Mary Magdelene, and Mary, the mother of Jesus (Matt. 27:55-56, Mark 15:40, 15:47, John 19:25-27)

– The mother of Zebedee's children (Matt. 27:56)

– John, the disciple of Jesus (John 19:25-27, 19:35)

– And all Jesus' acquaintances (Luke 23:49)


Witnesses of the resurrected Jesus:

Mary Magdelene (Matt. 28:9-10, John 20:15-18)

Mary, the mother of Jesus (Matt. 28:9-10)

Simon, the Pharisee and Alphaeus Cleophas (Luke 24:13-32)

The eleven disciples (Luke 24:33-51, John 20:19-30)

Simon Peter, Thomas, Nathanael, James and John (the sons of Zebedee) and two other disciples on another occasion (John 21)

Despite the perfect agreement between the Bible and the Koran on the miracle virgin-birth of Jesus, despite the numerous references within the Bible and Koran concerning the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus – which likewise are in perfect agreement IF properly understood – despite the documented accounts of dozens of eyewitnesses by multiple Apostles, despite over 121 secular, non-Biblical citations for Jesus outside the New Covenant/Testament that confirm the details of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection in Jerusalem, during the same period the events in the New Covenant/Testament are described, despite dozens of COMMANDS in the Koran to read and believe the Bible, despite the Koran itself plainly stating it was sent to CONFIRM the Bible, and despite numerous warnings in the Koran against becoming an UNBELIEVER, by picking and choosing which Apostles to believe (Sura 4:150-152), what do “Muslims” do?

They ignore God's Messengers and pretend the crucifixion and resurrection never happened.


This is what the Koran actually teaches about the crucifixion and about God raising Jesus from the dead after being buried for 3 days and 3 nights (Sura 3:42-55):


Sura 3:45, 48-55
3:45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of The Word (John 1:1-5) from Him: he will be called Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those NEAREST to God.

3:48. And GOD WILL TEACH HIM The Book (Old Covenant) and Wisdom, The Law (The Torah) and The Gospel (John 5:20-21, John 7:15-19, Sura 7:157-158),
3:49. And (appoint him) an Apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: and I HEAL THOSE BORN BLIND (John 9), and the lepers, and I enliven the dead, by God's leave and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. SURELY therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
3:50. (I have come to you), to affirm The Law which was before me (Matt. 5:17-20). And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you (Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14); I have come to you WITH A SIGN FROM YOUR LORD (Matt. 12:39-40). So fear God, and obey me (John 14:15, 21-24).
3:51. It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord (John 20:17) then worship Him. This is The Way that is Straight' (Matt.7:13-14, John 14:6)."
3:52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God." Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: we believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are "True in Faith".
3:53. Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger (John 1:14, 5:24); then write us down among those who bear witness (Luke 24:48, Acts 1:8, 2:32, 3:15, 5:32)."
3:54. And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and God too planned, and the best of planners is God.
3:55. Behold! GOD SAID: "O Jesus! I will take thee and RAISE THEE to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme*; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to The Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.


*Note well: those who falsely claim Jesus wasn't crucified and raised by God from the dead after 3 days and 3 nights, are committing blasphemy by calling God a liar.

Sura 4:157-159
4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed Christ not, nor crucified Christ (John 1:10), but so it was made to appear to them (as they crucified the human body called Jesus, that Christ the spirit-being used - Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Zechariah 11:10-13; Matthew 27), and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) Knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed Christ not:-
4:158. NAY, GOD RAISED HIM UP UNTO HIMSELF and God is Exalted in Power, and in Wisdom;-
4:159. And, of the People of The Book, they all MUST believe him (Christ) before their death; and on The Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them (and you) (Sura 43:61);-

Note well: Sura 4:157 is probably the most misunderstood verse in the Koran. IF it is read properly, it provides us with CLEAR SIGNS AND CONVINCING PROOF that The Messiah/Christ, the immortal spirit-Being incarnated inside the mortal human Jesus (John 1:14, Sura 2:87, Sura 2:253, Sura 5:113), was NOT crucified; but JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED AND RAISED FROM THE DEAD BY GOD HIMSELF, as it says throughout the Bible and Koran, including in the very next verse (Sura 4:158).


Further confirmation of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus:-

Sura 6:122. Can he who was dead (Jesus – Matt. 27:50-54, Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:44-47, John 19:30-42) to whom We gave life (Matt. 28:5-10, Mark 16:6-8, Luke 24, John 20), and a Light (John 3:19-21, John 8:3) with which he (Christ) walks amongst men, be like him who is in the depths of darkness (Lucifer), from which he can never come out? Thus to those without Faith their own deeds seem pleasing (Deut. 4:28, Matt. 6:5).

Excerpts from Sura 19:16-37, about Mary, the virgin birth, and Jesus:

19:19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of an HOLY SON (Rev. 15:4, Sura 59:23, Sura 62:1)."

19:27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, THE DAY THAT I DIE, AND THE DAY THAT I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (again)!"
19:34. SUCH (WAS) JESUS THE SON OF MARY: (IT IS) A STATEMENT OF TRUTH, about which they (vainly) dispute.
19:35. It is not befitting to (the Majesty of) "I AM" that He should beget a (human) son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
19:36. Verily "I AM" is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is The Way that is straight.
19:37. But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the Unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day!
19:38. How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! But the unjust today are clearly in error!

Note well: the word “beget” in this context means to procreate through sexual intercourse. God is NOT a human [Num. 23:19, Hos. 11:9, John 4:24), and therefore does NOT have/beget human children. He did however CREATE the Angels (Spirit-Beings) which are referred to as the Sons of God (the immortal spirit-Beings, NOT the humans they incarnate – Sura 9:30)]. And in doing so, He became our Heavenly Father.

Jesus, WAS the mortal human son (“Son of Man”), born of the virgin body of Mary. Christ, the immortal Spirit-Being, IS the Firstborn/First-created Son of God. Together they formed the human+Being referred to as Jesus+Christ. It is The Messiah/Christ that is prophesied to return in a new body (Gen. 49:10, 22-24) with a new name (Rev. 2:17, 3:12, 19:12) just before the Last Day (Mal. 4, Sura 43:61), NOT Jesus.


There is absolutely NO DOUBT of the existence of Jesus, nor of the virgin birth, nor of Jesus' Life and Teachings, nor of the crucifixion and resurrection (raising of Jesus by God Himself).

Only a complete fool would look at the MOUNTAIN of evidence for the crucifixion and resurrection and somehow doubt the existence of Jesus.

Until these irrefutable FACTS are clearly understood and no longer ignored, so-called Muslims (unbelievers really) will continue to vainly dispute against God and His Messenger, until they too find themselves in The Fire, exactly as the Koran warns us at least 300 times.
 

AdjeYen

Rookie
Joined
Mar 11, 2020
Messages
69
Along with the atheists and agnostics, there are many "Muslims" (unbelievers really) that do not believe that the crucifixion and resurrection took place, even though the Koran (Quran) COMMANDS its readers to read, study and put into action The Law (Old Covenant) and Gospel (New Covenant), which God has guaranteed have been safe-guarded and kept secure.


Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarite, whom ye crucified, WHOM GOD RAISED FROM THE DEAD, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. THIS is the Stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the Head of the Corner (Matt. 21:42). Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
--Acts 4:10-12

2000 years ago, a miracle child was born to a virgin, to set Him apart from everyone else, so people would take notice of Him and HEAR Him (Mark 9:7).

The miracle birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary is prophesied in the Old Covenant (Isa. 7:14), fulfilled and recorded in the New Covenant (Matt. 1:18-23, Luke 1:27-35), and CONFIRMED in the Koran (Sura 3:42-47, 19:16-37). We literally changed the way we keep time on this planet because of this miracle. Who then could do more wrong than to ignore such Clear Signs from our Lord?

B.C. = Before Christ

A.D. = Anno Domini = in the year of our Lord

Similarly, the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is prophesied in the Old Covenant (Ps. 22, Isa. 53:1-11, Dan. 9:25-27, Zech. 11:11-13) and New Covenant (Matt. 12:39-40, 20:17-19, 26:2, Mark 9:31, 10:32-34), fulfilled and recorded in the New Covenant (Matt. 27, Mark 15:17-16:8, John 19:14-21:25), and CONFIRMED in the Koran (Sura 3:55, 4:157-158, 6:122, 19:33-34).

We also have recorded in the Bible, which the Koran was sent to CONFIRM (not to contradict), a list of eyewitnesses to both the crucifixion and resurrection.


Witnesses to the crucifixion of Jesus:

– Joseph of Arimathaea, Jesus' great-uncle, who claimed the body (Matt. 27:57-60, Mark 15:43-46, Luke 23:50-53, John 19:38)

– Mary Magdelene, and Mary, the mother of Jesus (Matt. 27:55-56, Mark 15:40, 15:47, John 19:25-27)

– The mother of Zebedee's children (Matt. 27:56)

– John, the disciple of Jesus (John 19:25-27, 19:35)

– And all Jesus' acquaintances (Luke 23:49)


Witnesses of the resurrected Jesus:

Mary Magdelene (Matt. 28:9-10, John 20:15-18)

Mary, the mother of Jesus (Matt. 28:9-10)

Simon, the Pharisee and Alphaeus Cleophas (Luke 24:13-32)

The eleven disciples (Luke 24:33-51, John 20:19-30)

Simon Peter, Thomas, Nathanael, James and John (the sons of Zebedee) and two other disciples on another occasion (John 21)

Despite the perfect agreement between the Bible and the Koran on the miracle virgin-birth of Jesus, despite the numerous references within the Bible and Koran concerning the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus – which likewise are in perfect agreement IF properly understood – despite the documented accounts of dozens of eyewitnesses by multiple Apostles, despite over 121 secular, non-Biblical citations for Jesus outside the New Covenant/Testament that confirm the details of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection in Jerusalem, during the same period the events in the New Covenant/Testament are described, despite dozens of COMMANDS in the Koran to read and believe the Bible, despite the Koran itself plainly stating it was sent to CONFIRM the Bible, and despite numerous warnings in the Koran against becoming an UNBELIEVER, by picking and choosing which Apostles to believe (Sura 4:150-152), what do “Muslims” do?

They ignore God's Messengers and pretend the crucifixion and resurrection never happened.


This is what the Koran actually teaches about the crucifixion and about God raising Jesus from the dead after being buried for 3 days and 3 nights (Sura 3:42-55):


Sura 3:45, 48-55
3:45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of The Word (John 1:1-5) from Him: he will be called Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those NEAREST to God.

3:48. And GOD WILL TEACH HIM The Book (Old Covenant) and Wisdom, The Law (The Torah) and The Gospel (John 5:20-21, John 7:15-19, Sura 7:157-158),
3:49. And (appoint him) an Apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: and I HEAL THOSE BORN BLIND (John 9), and the lepers, and I enliven the dead, by God's leave and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. SURELY therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
3:50. (I have come to you), to affirm The Law which was before me (Matt. 5:17-20). And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you (Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14); I have come to you WITH A SIGN FROM YOUR LORD (Matt. 12:39-40). So fear God, and obey me (John 14:15, 21-24).
3:51. It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord (John 20:17) then worship Him. This is The Way that is Straight' (Matt.7:13-14, John 14:6)."
3:52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God." Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: we believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are "True in Faith".
3:53. Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger (John 1:14, 5:24); then write us down among those who bear witness (Luke 24:48, Acts 1:8, 2:32, 3:15, 5:32)."
3:54. And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and God too planned, and the best of planners is God.
3:55. Behold! GOD SAID: "O Jesus! I will take thee and RAISE THEE to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme*; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to The Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.


*Note well: those who falsely claim Jesus wasn't crucified and raised by God from the dead after 3 days and 3 nights, are committing blasphemy by calling God a liar.

Sura 4:157-159
4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed Christ not, nor crucified Christ (John 1:10), but so it was made to appear to them (as they crucified the human body called Jesus, that Christ the spirit-being used - Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Zechariah 11:10-13; Matthew 27), and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) Knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed Christ not:-
4:158. NAY, GOD RAISED HIM UP UNTO HIMSELF and God is Exalted in Power, and in Wisdom;-
4:159. And, of the People of The Book, they all MUST believe him (Christ) before their death; and on The Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them (and you) (Sura 43:61);-

Note well: Sura 4:157 is probably the most misunderstood verse in the Koran. IF it is read properly, it provides us with CLEAR SIGNS AND CONVINCING PROOF that The Messiah/Christ, the immortal spirit-Being incarnated inside the mortal human Jesus (John 1:14, Sura 2:87, Sura 2:253, Sura 5:113), was NOT crucified; but JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED AND RAISED FROM THE DEAD BY GOD HIMSELF, as it says throughout the Bible and Koran, including in the very next verse (Sura 4:158).


Further confirmation of the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus:-

Sura 6:122. Can he who was dead (Jesus – Matt. 27:50-54, Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:44-47, John 19:30-42) to whom We gave life (Matt. 28:5-10, Mark 16:6-8, Luke 24, John 20), and a Light (John 3:19-21, John 8:3) with which he (Christ) walks amongst men, be like him who is in the depths of darkness (Lucifer), from which he can never come out? Thus to those without Faith their own deeds seem pleasing (Deut. 4:28, Matt. 6:5).

Excerpts from Sura 19:16-37, about Mary, the virgin birth, and Jesus:

19:19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of an HOLY SON (Rev. 15:4, Sura 59:23, Sura 62:1)."

19:27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, THE DAY THAT I DIE, AND THE DAY THAT I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (again)!"
19:34. SUCH (WAS) JESUS THE SON OF MARY: (IT IS) A STATEMENT OF TRUTH, about which they (vainly) dispute.
19:35. It is not befitting to (the Majesty of) "I AM" that He should beget a (human) son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
19:36. Verily "I AM" is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is The Way that is straight.
19:37. But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the Unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day!
19:38. How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! But the unjust today are clearly in error!

Note well: the word “beget” in this context means to procreate through sexual intercourse. God is NOT a human [Num. 23:19, Hos. 11:9, John 4:24), and therefore does NOT have/beget human children. He did however CREATE the Angels (Spirit-Beings) which are referred to as the Sons of God (the immortal spirit-Beings, NOT the humans they incarnate – Sura 9:30)]. And in doing so, He became our Heavenly Father.

Jesus, WAS the mortal human son (“Son of Man”), born of the virgin body of Mary. Christ, the immortal Spirit-Being, IS the Firstborn/First-created Son of God. Together they formed the human+Being referred to as Jesus+Christ. It is The Messiah/Christ that is prophesied to return in a new body (Gen. 49:10, 22-24) with a new name (Rev. 2:17, 3:12, 19:12) just before the Last Day (Mal. 4, Sura 43:61), NOT Jesus.


There is absolutely NO DOUBT of the existence of Jesus, nor of the virgin birth, nor of Jesus' Life and Teachings, nor of the crucifixion and resurrection (raising of Jesus by God Himself).

Only a complete fool would look at the MOUNTAIN of evidence for the crucifixion and resurrection and somehow doubt the existence of Jesus.

Until these irrefutable FACTS are clearly understood and no longer ignored, so-called Muslims (unbelievers really) will continue to vainly dispute against God and His Messenger, until they too find themselves in The Fire, exactly as the Koran warns us at least 300 times.
Haha. You are definitely something else, mate. No, it isn't the most misunderstood surah in the Qur'an. It's not a rocket-science verse.
Prophet Jesus (pbuh) wasn't killed nor crucified. It's that simple. What you did right there was overanalyzing a simple verse and taking the context out of it and how you interpret it.
They didn't crucify a "human body Jesus" or a "God in a human body Jesus" how you Christian usually say, most of you because there are plenty of Christians out there who don't believe that Jesus was God.
A "Human body Jesus" doesn't exist, my friend. Stop making things up.
But I understand, you people love to cherry-pick verses how you want.
Say "I'm the biggest Muslim hater without saying that you're a Muslim hater," my friend. Don't act like you're a Saint or something because you're not. I have read your posts, you're sharing nothing but hatred.
I don't mind having a debate with Christians, as long as there's no "fighting, shouting, yelling, mocking" but it's this "No, no, Islam was made up by prophet Muhammad and he actually was a fire-worshipper" rubbish fairytales you guys keep making. Just to make Islam look bad.
How can you go to the Church and pray to God but yet you have hate towards Islam? Can you answer this question? You're nothing but a hater, my friend.

I know people like you. As soon as you said "so-called Muslims (unbelievers really)" I just knew what kind of a person you are. You have problems, my friend, big-time problems.
What right does it give you to call the entire Muslim population unbelievers?
You're one of those "Look at how special I am. I'm the best believer in the world. I'm the best Christian, look how good I am." otherwise you wouldn't mock other religions.
 

TempestOfTempo

Superstar
Joined
Jan 29, 2018
Messages
7,376
Muslims are supposed to believe that Jesus was born by divine miracle with the immaculate conception, that he walked the earth as a real human (NOT a myth or fantasy as is being suggested by some) and performed his miracles. We are to believe that he was taken to heaven by the will of the Creator and will return to lead the victorious charge against the anti-Christ and his forces.

So for myself, I prefer to focus on where we have common ground with the Christians who truly take their faith seriously.
 

A Freeman

Star
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
3,724
Haha. You are definitely something else, mate. No, it isn't the most misunderstood surah in the Qur'an.
Of course it is the most understood Surah in the Qur'an, otherwise you wouldn't be here trying to argue the exact opposite of what it actually says and means.

It's not a rocket-science verse.
Agreed. It says in the very next ayat/verse that God raised Jesus from the dead, so it should be self-evident that Jesus died.

Sura 4:157-159
4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed Christ not, nor crucified Christ, but so it was made to appear to them (as they crucified the human body called Jesus, that Christ the spirit-being used - Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Zechariah 11:10-13; Matthew 27), and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) Knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed Christ not:-
4:158. NAY, GOD RAISED HIM UP UNTO HIMSELF and God is Exalted in Power, and in Wisdom;-
4:159. And, of the People of The Book, they all MUST believe him (Christ) before their death; and on The Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them (and you) (Sura 43:61);-

Prophet Jesus (pbuh) wasn't killed nor crucified. It's that simple. What you did right there was overanalyzing a simple verse and taking the context out of it and how you interpret it.
Not true. What was done was to apply The Law that Allah gave us, to see if that single verse (Sura 4:157) actually disagrees with hundreds and hundreds of other verses, or whether it is in perfect agreement with the rest of Scripture when it is CORRECTLY understood.

Here are two additional verses within the Koran (Quran) that confirm Jesus was crucified/murdered.

Sura 6:122. Can he who was dead (Jesus – Matt. 27:50-54, Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:44-47, John 19:30-42) to whom We gave life (Matt. 28:5-10, Mark 16:6-8, Luke 24, John 20), and a Light (John 3:19-21, John 8:3) with which he walks amongst men (Christ), be like him who is in the depths of darkness (Lucifer), from which he can never come out? Thus to those without Faith their own deeds seem pleasing.

Here is Gabriel confirming the virgin birth, and the words directly from the Prophet Jesus plainly stating that he would die and be raised again from the dead to life:-

Sura 19:19-20
19:19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of an HOLY SON (Rev. 15:4, Sura 59:23, Sura 62:1)."
19:20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

Sura 19:27-34
19:27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
19:28. O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
19:29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the crib?"
19:30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of "I AM": He hath given me revelation and made me a Prophet;
19:31. And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Compassion as long as I live;
19:32. (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"
19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

Of course the Koran (Quran) also tells us many times that it was sent to confirm the Old Covenant (which prophesies the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus) and the New Covenant (which serves as a historical account of the crucifixion and resurrection).

See: Sura 2:97-98, 3:1-3, 4:47, 5:51, 6:92-94, 6:154-157, 10:37, 12:111, 22:52, 35:31, 46:12, 61:6-7.

So it should come as no surprise that the Koran COMMANDS its readers to read, study, digest and follow both The Law (Old Covenant) and Gospel (New Covenant) and to not be in doubt of their veracity.

Sura 2:53, 2:87-93, 3:1-3, 3:48-50, 4:54, 5:46-50, 6:91-92, 6:154-157, 7:157, 9:111, 11:17, 15:9-10, 17:2-4, 21:48, 23:20, 23:49, 25:35, 28:1-3, 32:23, 35:25-32, 37:117, 40:53, 40:70, 41:45, 42:14-17, 45:16, 46:12, 46:30, 48:29, 53:36-47, 57:25-29, 61:6, 78:2

It should therefore be self-evident, that in the face of this absolute MOUNTAIN of evidence, anyone foolish enough to be duped into believing that Sura 4:157 somehow contradicts rather than confirms the Old Covenant prophecies and New Covenant accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection, and that it somehow contradicts other verses within the Koran, MUST be in error.

We likewise have secular historians and multiple eye-witnesses to both the crucifixion and resurrection to consider as well. All of which was documented in the previous post in this thread. Did you even bother to read and study what was shared before having a knee-jerk reaction?

It states in Sura 4:157 that "it was made to APPEAR to them that they killed Christ, Who is an IMMORTAL Spirit-Being that humans cannot kill. Humans can only kill human bodies, whereas God can kill both the body and the soul (spirit-Being).

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell-fire.

Anyone who claims that Jesus wasn't crucified is calling God, Gabriel, Jesus and Muhammad liars, which is not only thoughtless and stupid, but a sure-fired way to wind up in The Fire on Judgment Day.

They didn't crucify a "human body Jesus"
Of course that's exactly what they did. The human body of Jesus was crucified and died, but the immortal spiritual-Being known here on Earth as The Messiah/Christ was obviously NOT killed; it only APPEARED that way.

or a "God in a human body Jesus" how you Christian usually say, most of you because there are plenty of Christians out there who don't believe that Jesus was God.
Never on this forum has it ever been personally said that Jesus was (or is) God. So what you're doing is introducing this as a strawman argument (which is a logical fallacy, i.e. illogical).

Jesus WAS the mortal human son of the virgin body of Mary, born in Bethlehem on 12 April 7 B.C. and crucified on Golgotha on Wednesday, 21 April 34 A.D. (backdating through the Gregorian and Julian calendars).

Christ (Prince Michael) IS the first created Angel (aka Son of God), Who plainly stated through the mouth of Jesus "I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD".

A "Human body Jesus" doesn't exist, my friend. Stop making things up.
Nothing has been made up, so please stop making false accusations, for your sake.

But I understand, you people love to cherry-pick verses how you want.
Isn't it YOU who are doing that?

You pick ONE verse, which you clearly do NOT understand, don't bother to read the following verse, or the rest of the Koran, or the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, ALL of which prove your interpretation of Sura 4:157 to be in obvious error, and then accuse another of doing what YOU are actually doing.

You hypocrite!

Say "I'm the biggest Muslim hater without saying that you're a Muslim hater," my friend.
Knowing what I know -- that every single "Muslim" is going to burn on Judgment Day for their continued refusal to stop committing shirk -- If I actually hated "Muslims", then why not say nothing, avoid all of the thoughtless and satanic attacks (like yours) and simply let them burn?

Everything that is shared on this forum is done so in love, to help others get to KNOW THE One TRUE God AND Christ, the Saviour/Messenger of God, Whom God SENT.

Don't act like you're a Saint or something because you're not. I have read your posts, you're sharing nothing but hatred.
That may be how you see it, because you're viewing what's been shared through human eyes, rather than through spiritual eyes.

I don't mind having a debate with Christians, as long as there's no "fighting, shouting, yelling, mocking" but it's this "No, no, Islam was made up by prophet Muhammad and he actually was a fire-worshipper" rubbish fairytales you guys keep making.
More strawman arguments? When was there ever a claim made that Muhammad was a "fire-worshipper"???

And who is "you guys"? Another false judgment perhaps on your part?

Just to make Islam look bad.
Nobody needs to make the evil organized religion that deceitfully calls itself "Islam" look bad. It does that all by itself, by promoting fairy tales and pretending to worship God, whilst doing the exact opposite of what He COMMANDS us to do.

How can you go to the Church and pray to God but yet you have hate towards Islam?
HOW CAN ANYONE GO TO SYNAGOGUE, CHURCH, MOSQUE, TEMPLES, ETC. WHEN GOD HAS REPEATEDLY CONDEMNED ALL OF THOSE SATANIC PLACES OF BUSINESS AND THEIR RABBIS, PRIESTS, PASTORS AND IMAMS, ETC.?

God has repeatedly told us NOT TO GO TO CHURCH/MOSQUES, etc., but to seek Him IN PRIVATE and in HUMILITY. And yet so-called Jews, so-called Christians and so called Muslims directly disobey God and go to these evil places of business anyway.

Matthew 6:5-8
6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt NOT be as the hypocrites [ARE]: for they love to pray standing in the churches and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward (they have been seen by men, but God will not answer them).
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and WHEN THOU HAST SHUT THY DOOR, pray to thy Father in private (Enoch 56:5; Sura 7:55); and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly (by answering you).
6:7 But when ye pray, use NOT vain repetitions, as the heathen [DO]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
6:8 Be NOT ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, BEFORE ye ask Him.

Sura 4:142. The Hypocrites - they think they are over-reaching God, but He will over-reach them: when they stand up to prayer, they stand without earnestness, to be seen by men (Matt. 6:5), only little do they hold God in remembrance;

Sura 7:55. Call on your Lord with HUMILITY and in PRIVATE (Enoch 56:5; Matt. 6:6): for Allah ("I AM") loveth not those who trespass beyond bounds.

Sura 33:33. And stay quietly IN YOUR HOUSES (Sura 9:107-111), and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance (Sura 4:142, Sura 7:55); and establish constant Prayer (1 Thes. 5:17), and give regular Charity (Matt. 6:1-8); and obey "I AM" and His Messenger. And "I AM" only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye Members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless (Matt. 5:8).

Sura 107:5-6
107:5. Who are neglectful of their Prayers,
107:6. Those who (want only) to be seen (by men - Matt. 6:5),

Can you answer this question?
As above please.

You're nothing but a hater, my friend.

I know people like you. As soon as you said "so-called Muslims (unbelievers really)" I just knew what kind of a person you are. You have problems, my friend, big-time problems.
What right does it give you to call the entire Muslim population unbelievers?

You're one of those "Look at how special I am. I'm the best believer in the world. I'm the best Christian, look how good I am." otherwise you wouldn't mock other religions.
It sounds like the problem YOU have isn't with me but with God, Who has nothing to do with churches/synagogues/mosques, etc. and organised religions, NONE of which belong to Him.

Peace be upon you.
 
Last edited:

Daze

Star
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
2,533
Haha. You are definitely something else, mate. No, it isn't the most misunderstood surah in the Qur'an. It's not a rocket-science verse.
Prophet Jesus (pbuh) wasn't killed nor crucified. It's that simple. What you did right there was overanalyzing a simple verse and taking the context out of it and how you interpret it.
They didn't crucify a "human body Jesus" or a "God in a human body Jesus" how you Christian usually say, most of you because there are plenty of Christians out there who don't believe that Jesus was God.
A "Human body Jesus" doesn't exist, my friend. Stop making things up.
But I understand, you people love to cherry-pick verses how you want.
Say "I'm the biggest Muslim hater without saying that you're a Muslim hater," my friend. Don't act like you're a Saint or something because you're not. I have read your posts, you're sharing nothing but hatred.
I don't mind having a debate with Christians, as long as there's no "fighting, shouting, yelling, mocking" but it's this "No, no, Islam was made up by prophet Muhammad and he actually was a fire-worshipper" rubbish fairytales you guys keep making. Just to make Islam look bad.
How can you go to the Church and pray to God but yet you have hate towards Islam? Can you answer this question? You're nothing but a hater, my friend.

I know people like you. As soon as you said "so-called Muslims (unbelievers really)" I just knew what kind of a person you are. You have problems, my friend, big-time problems.
What right does it give you to call the entire Muslim population unbelievers?
You're one of those "Look at how special I am. I'm the best believer in the world. I'm the best Christian, look how good I am." otherwise you wouldn't mock other religions.
Most people here are not interested in truth, they want you to tell them what they have is the truth. Eventually you reach a point to either ignore them or spend 5, 10 pages arguing over absolute retardation. For example Freeman says Prophet Muhammad was never in Mecca. Why engage people like this?

You make good points but pride and ego will never allow them to see it. These are the people whose hearts are sealed. Angels could appear before them and still they will not believe.

Ma salaama.
 

TempestOfTempo

Superstar
Joined
Jan 29, 2018
Messages
7,376
Most people here are not interested in truth, they want you to tell them what they have is the truth. Eventually you reach a point to either ignore them or spend 5, 10 pages arguing over absolute retardation. For example Freeman says Prophet Muhammad was never in Mecca. Why engage people like this?

You make good points but pride and ego will never allow them to see it. These are the people whose hearts are sealed. Angels could appear before them and still they will not believe.

Ma salaama.
The "truth" is that here you are again, provoking instead of communicating... no surprise there. Everyone here can see your "truth" for itself... that you promote an agend of child trafficking, r*pe and murder all justfied by your blasphemous theological manipulations.
 
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
17
Fernando Conde Torrens, a Spanish engineer, has done an intense research on this subject during many years. He mainly analyzed the Bible and reached a clear conclusion: Jesus didn't exist and the Christianity was totally invented. The most shocking evidence is an acrostic ("simon") found in many texts of the Bible (New Testament).

His work is in Spanish language, but I put here his site, in case someone speaking Spanish is interested:


You can google his name and find some interviews too. For example:

 
Last edited:

Daze

Star
Joined
Jun 28, 2020
Messages
2,533
Fernando Conde Torrens, a Spanish engineer, has done an intense research on this subject during many years. He mainly analyzed the Bible and reached a clear conclusion: Jesus didn't exist and the Christianity was totally invented. The most shocking evidence is an acrostic ("simon") found in many texts of the Bible.

His work is in Spanish language, but I put here his site, in case someone speaking Spanish is interested:


You can google his name and find some interviews too. For example:

The Quran vindicates Jesus. He is mentioned in it many times. In fact there is an entire chapter about his mother called Maryam.


As I've argued with x-tians here, the Quran itself is a modern day miracle, on par with Moses splitting the red sea or Jesus giving life to the dead.
The Quran is literally the word of the Creator with plenty of proofs attesting to this. One i often put forth is 10's of 1000's hate Islam. For 1400 years 10's of 1000's have come and gone hating Islam and not a single one has managed to change a single letter.

Entire nations have declared to make their own Quran and we see to this day they have found such a task to be impossible. While this is a challenge from the Almighty himself.

Or do they say [about the Prophet], "He invented it?" Say, "Then bring forth a surah like it and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah , if you should be truthful." (10 38 Quran)

To this day their remains 1 Quran.

There are many things i can mention. Such as the Quran speaking of things science has only realized in our own time, such as the universe is in fact expanding, all life being made from water and so on. A book sent down 1400 years ago to an illiterate man in the desert mentions many things science has only discovered 50, 60 years ago.


This is not exactly a thread proving the Quran, in fact it is made by one who honestly has a hard time posting without putting Islam down in some way. I am simply here to point out the fact that Jesus, at one time did walk amongst us and a time is coming when he will return. To rule the planet for roughly 40 years.

So to say Jesus never existed??.. is kinda like arguing for flat earth. If nothing else lets inject some common sense here. How many people are on the planet today? 7 billion, 8? See if you can find me a single soul who hasn't heard of Jesus. The fact that he is globally known should tell you of his elevated status in this life and the next.
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
12,041
Fernando Conde Torrens, a Spanish engineer, has done an intense research on this subject during many years. He mainly analyzed the Bible and reached a clear conclusion: Jesus didn't exist and the Christianity was totally invented. The most shocking evidence is an acrostic ("simon") found in many texts of the Bible (New Testament).

His work is in Spanish language, but I put here his site, in case someone speaking Spanish is interested:


You can google his name and find some interviews too. For example:

Fernando Conde Torrens has written 'Year 303: [They] Invent Christianity'

I guess nobody told Irenaeus or Polycarp?!
 
Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
12,041
If @VigilantCitizen ever became really cross with me, he might delete all my content from this forum. What would be left would be an imprint of my interactions with others and perhaps even clues as to what was going on in my life during my years here. Some people might have grabbed a quote from what I said to comment on, negatively or positively etc.

In the same way, history bears the imprint of Jesus, not just from those who were positive towards Him, but also from those who were decidedly negative. If you exclude the positive witnesses, you are still left with the accounts of the hostile witnesses. This is what destroys the “Jesus Myth” narrative completely, as well as giving valuable insight into the world in which the Church first appeared.

I thought this book was excellent…


Description

“If you ask people about the existence of Christ, they usually fall into one of three camps: the faithful who sing his praises, the atheists who consider him a mythological creation, and the skeptics who fall somewhere in between.

But regardless of your personal feelings about Jesus of Nazareth, little doubt remains that he was a real person who once walked this earth. A wealth of historical accounts exist to assure us of this—with many of the most compelling coming from nonbelievers themselves.

Hostile Witnesses is an examination of the best historical evidence for Christ’s existence, particularly the evidence provided to us by the most unexpected of sources. From the pagans of ancient Rome, to Jewish and Muslim writings, these accounts create a solid fact-based history of Jesus’s life on earth…one that believers and nonbelievers will find equally compelling.

Whether you are established in your beliefs or just now embarking on a journey of faith, join author Curtis Grant Parker as he reveals the truth about the historical Jesus—and discover the opportunity to make your own decisions about his status as Lord God and Savior.”

About the Author

Curtis Grant Parker was born in St. Petersburg, Florida, in 1945 and raised in suburban St. Louis, where his favorite activities included reading, playing sports, and helping raise his younger siblings. Despite growing up in a loving Christian home, Parker put his faith into a “deep freeze” and began a two-decade separation from God after earning a degree in English at the University of Missouri in St. Louis.

During this dark time in his life, he began his professional career—first working as an English teacher, then in an advertising agency, before eventually beginning his own medical marketing company.

In the late 1980s, Parker finally rediscovered his Christian faith thanks to his wife Deborah. In addition to teaching Sunday school for twenty years, he also helped form a men’s Bible study group and went on a mission to Ghana, West Africa, in 2009.

He currently lives in Wildwood, Missouri, with his wife. He is the father of three grown daughters.
 
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
17
Fernando Conde Torrens has written 'Year 303: [They] Invent Christianity'

I guess nobody told Irenaeus or Polycarp?!
According to Conde Torrens, they were invented.

He says:

Ireneo, Marción, Ignacio de Antioquía, Pedro, Pablo, Juan, Marcos, Mateo, Lucas, Santiago, Judas y un largo etcétera son personajes inventados por Lactancio y Eusebio de Cesarea, autores ambos, del Nuevo Testamento. Esto se demuestra de manera documental, con pruebas falsables, en el libro.

Google translation:

Irenaeus, Marcion, Ignatius of Antioch, Peter, Paul, John, Mark, Matthew, Luke, James, Judas and a long etcetera are characters invented by Lactantius and Eusebius of Caesarea, both authors of the New Testament. This is demonstrated documentary, with falsifiable evidence, in the book.
 
Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
12,041
According to Conde Torrens, they were invented.

He says (sorry, in Spanish):

Ireneo, Marción, Ignacio de Antioquía, Pedro, Pablo, Juan, Marcos, Mateo, Lucas, Santiago, Judas y un largo etcétera son personajes inventados por Lactancio y Eusebio de Cesarea, autores ambos, del Nuevo Testamento. Esto se demuestra de manera documental, con pruebas falsables, en el libro.
I guess whoever invented him would have been pretty bright then? The proposed historic revisionist must have anticipated Christian doctrine and early church heresies to create an entire body of written work from their ghost witness!!

 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
12,041
As for the Islamic perspective of Jesus’s crucifixion, death and resurrection, an historic revision of the account some 700 years subsequent hardly has academic credibility. On Muhammad’s own omission, there was no attempt to suggest that documents or other information had come to his possession that would indicate Jesus was exchanged on the cross for one made to resemble Him.

We are to go on the words of the spirit being / Muhammad himself to base the veracity of the claim. On a purely human level, you are to imagine me making a revisionist claim about John Wycliffe from the 14th Century.

To use another analogy, I like Tolkien but if another author were to claim Tolkiens manuscripts of LoTR had been corrupted and produce a fresh version of the story, where Saruman saves the day but Sam dies, then Gollum and Frodo go back to the Shire together, I would have issues with it. While the Bible shares many of the stories and characters of the Qur’an, they are re-presentations of the originals, re-cast to support Muhammad’s narrative. I don’t need to be rude to Muslims about this, but “it is what it is”.
 

A Freeman

Star
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
3,724
Nope. All I’ll say is “So called Christians (unbelievers for real), polytheistic pagans”

have a nice day
Are there any REAL Muslims today? If you are a Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Wahhabi, Salafi, Takfiri, or member of any other sect, Allah says you are NOT a Muslim, but are Kafir – Infidels/Unfaithful

Sura 6:159. As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou must have nothing whatsoever to do with it, even in the least: their affair is with “I AM”: in the end He will tell them the truth of all that they did.

Sura 11:17. Can they be (like) those who accept a Clear (Sign) from their Lord, and whom a witness from Himself doth teach, as did the Book of Moses (the Torah) before it,- a guide and a mercy? They believe therein but those of the Sects that reject it,- the Fire will be their promised meeting-place. Be not then in doubt thereon: for it is the Truth from thy Lord: yet many among men do not believe!

All so-called Muslims today are actually polytheistic pagans themselves, committing shirk by making the made-up stories (LIES) about Muhammad (which also do Muhammad a great disservice) a partner with part of God's Word (the Koran/Quran).

And, at the very same time, overtly and blasphemously rejecting the other two parts of God's Word (the Old Covenant and the New Covenant), including God's Law (THE CRITERION -- Sura 2:53) and the Gospel of Jesus, which the Koran was sent to CONFIRM.

Sura 32:23. We did indeed aforetime give the Book (Torah) to Moses: be then NOT IN DOUBT of its (The Torah) reaching (THEE): and We made it a Guide to the Children of Israel.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] Apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

One cannot continue to disbelieve and disobey God and claim to be doing His Will (Islam in Arabic). Period.

Peace be upon you.
 
Last edited:

A Freeman

Star
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
3,724
As for the Islamic perspective of Jesus’s crucifixion, death and resurrection, an historic revision of the account some 700 years subsequent hardly has academic credibility. On Muhammad’s own omission, there was no attempt to suggest that documents or other information had come to his possession that would indicate Jesus was exchanged on the cross for one made to resemble Him.

We are to go on the words of the spirit being / Muhammad himself to base the veracity of the claim. On a purely human level, you are to imagine me making a revisionist claim about John Wycliffe from the 14th Century.

To use another analogy, I like Tolkien but if another author were to claim Tolkiens manuscripts of LoTR had been corrupted and produce a fresh version of the story, where Saruman saves the day but Sam dies, then Gollum and Frodo go back to the Shire together, I would have issues with it. While the Bible shares many of the stories and characters of the Qur’an, they are re-presentations of the originals, re-cast to support Muhammad’s narrative. I don’t need to be rude to Muslims about this, but “it is what it is”.
The fact that the Koran/Quran repeatedly tells its reader that it was sent to CONFIRM the Old Covenant and New Covenant that came before it should make it crystal clear that the organized religion that calls itself "Islam" has it WRONG about the ONE VERSE they routinely misinterpret, and have made up a fantasy story about to try to explain it away.

We have it straight from the mouth of Jesus, as cited in the Koran, that Jesus DID die and that God raised/resurrected Jesus from the dead.

From Gabriel to Mary about Jesus:

Sura 19:19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of an Holy son."

From Jesus (Isa):-

Sura 19:33-34
19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, THE DAY THAT I DIE, AND the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"
19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

Only a complete fool/infidel/unbeliever would choose to (vainly) dispute the above is allegedly not a statement of truth, when God says that it is a statement of TRUTH.
 
Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
12,041
The fact that the Koran/Quran repeatedly tells its reader that it was sent to CONFIRM the Old Covenant and New Covenant that came before it should make it crystal clear that the organized religion that calls itself "Islam" has it WRONG about the ONE VERSE they routinely misinterpret, and have made up a fantasy story about to try to explain it away.

We have it straight from the mouth of Jesus, as cited in the Koran, that Jesus DID die and that God raised/resurrected Jesus from the dead.

From Gabriel to Mary about Jesus:

Sura 19:19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of an Holy son."

From Jesus (Isa):-

Sura 19:33-34
19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, THE DAY THAT I DIE, AND the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"
19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

Only a complete fool/infidel/unbeliever would choose to (vainly) dispute the above is allegedly not a statement of truth, when God says that it is a statement of TRUTH.
Whilst I don’t see a compatibility between the Qur’an and the Bible (other than the former being an echo of the latter) I can see that there may well be an original Islam and a modern formulation of Islam that differ. I am sure that certain unhelpful verses such as those above are quietly avoided in Islamic discourse (or perhaps re-imagined in windy articles stressing original Arabic nuances that are difficult to cross examine!!!)
 

Maldarker

Star
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
1,275
4:159. And, of the People of The Book, they all MUST believe him (Christ) before their death; and on The Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them (and you) (Sura 43:61);-

Seems this passage really fits with the biblical verse of :

“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. Matt10:32
 
Top