Jesus Revealed In The Old Testement Feasts

Red Sky at Morning

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You bring up an interesting point which lays bare an inconsistency in Christianity, today. We (Christians) are happy to tell everyone how Christ fulfillfed the Law and is man's intercessor in the Most Holy place since that curtain was "rent in twain" and yet we are, at the same time strongly supporting Jewish efforts of rebuilding the temple so that "things can be the way they were before". Isn't that odd? What purpose has God for re-instating the sacrificial system? And what is it foreshadowing? The argument in favour is that it was prophecied and God will use the whole thing to get the Jews to repent. I don't see how that worked 2000 before Christ (the 2 temples), as they were in and out of exile. Why would it work now?

Evangelical Christians can sleep-walk through this but in all honesty, subconsciously (?) or consciously for others, its a direct denial of the cross and His on-going ministry in the heavens for EVERYONE, even if iam cheering the efforts on the side-lines. It is a terrifying reality that the re-building of the temple (for the 3rd time) is a mainstream belief in evangelical Christianity, more so because of a supposed bearing in eschatology. That also brings into question the many end-time aspects tied to the temple. It would then reveal them to be lies, biblically unfounded, even though people will twist scripture to prove their stance. Is this laying the ground for Christ to return contrary to peoples' expectations? How did we get here?
How is this any different from faiths that deny the crucifixion. How am i, any different from Annas or Caiaphas? To support those Jewish efforts is to stand where the Sanhedrin stood 2000yrs ago. People can get excited about red heifers, Cohens (apparently they carry Levite DNA) and developments around the Temple Mount, but the enemy isn't sleeping. Same deception, different garb. Only this time, it seems so subtle.
A complex point and worth making. I don't believe in replacement theology or starry eyed Hebrew roots evangelical rubber stamping of every Israeli action. God doesn't need out help to 'set the right conditions' for prophetic events either, imo...
 

Lady

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You bring up an interesting point which lays bare an inconsistency in Christianity, today. We (Christians) are happy to tell everyone how Christ fulfillfed the Law and is man's intercessor in the Most Holy place since that curtain was "rent in twain" and yet we are, at the same time strongly supporting Jewish efforts of rebuilding the temple so that "things can be the way they were before". Isn't that odd? What purpose has God for re-instating the sacrificial system? And what is it foreshadowing? The argument in favour is that it was prophecied and God will use the whole thing to get the Jews to repent. I don't see how that worked 2000 before Christ (the 2 temples), as they were in and out of exile. Why would it work now?

Evangelical Christians can sleep-walk through this but in all honesty, subconsciously (?) or consciously for others, its a direct denial of the cross and His on-going ministry in the heavens for EVERYONE, even if iam cheering the efforts on the side-lines. It is a terrifying reality that the re-building of the temple (for the 3rd time) is a mainstream belief in evangelical Christianity, more so because of a supposed bearing in eschatology. That also brings into question the many end-time aspects tied to the temple. It would then reveal them to be lies, biblically unfounded, even though people will twist scripture to prove their stance. Is this laying the ground for Christ to return contrary to peoples' expectations? How did we get here?
How is this any different from faiths that deny the crucifixion. How am i, any different from Annas or Caiaphas? To support those Jewish efforts is to stand where the Sanhedrin stood 2000yrs ago. People can get excited about red heifers, Cohens (apparently they carry Levite DNA) and developments around the Temple Mount, but the enemy isn't sleeping. Same deception, different garb. Only this time, it seems so subtle.

I find it extremely strange for Christians to support the building of a temple along with the renewal of the sacrificial system! This is in effect denying the role of Jesus Christ in our salvation. The sacrifice of the Lamb of God was the end of that system. His-as the sinless Son-was the most pure sacrifice that ever could be offered and was the only one that God accepted as a final and complete recompense for man's sin.

When Jesus says, "I am the truth, the life, and the way," He is referencing the established Jewish perspective of the Torah as being "the way" to God. When the Son of God came to earth, this is what He-the Word-replaced as the way. He is the new Torah as He states He is the way.

I think the Hebrew Roots movements, et al, are preparing Christians for accepting a sacrifice system once again, and those who are deceived into these movements will be easy targets for the anti-Christ at his appearing.
 

Karlysymon

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Unfortunately, it is blind support and many of us haven't really thought these things through, just ask the average Christian. S/he will outrightly deny it (that they aren't denying the cross) and yet the meaning of those actions is as clear as day, at least to me.
 

Tatilina

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I find it extremely strange for Christians to support the building of a temple along with the renewal of the sacrificial system! This is in effect denying the role of Jesus Christ in our salvation. The sacrifice of the Lamb of God was the end of that system. His-as the sinless Son-was the most pure sacrifice that ever could be offered and was the only one that God accepted as a final and complete recompense for man's sin.

When Jesus says, "I am the truth, the life, and the way," He is referencing the established Jewish perspective of the Torah as being "the way" to God. When the Son of God came to earth, this is what He-the Word-replaced as the way. He is the new Torah as He states He is the way.

I think the Hebrew Roots movements, et al, are preparing Christians for accepting a sacrifice system once again, and those who are deceived into these movements will be easy targets for the anti-Christ at his appearing.
I think the reason some Christians believe this, which includes Zionists and the HRM is because they have Daniel 9:27 all wrong. They believe that Daniel 9:27 is referring to the Anti-Christ when it is obviously referring to Jesus and his covenant made because the NT makes it clear that he WAS the FINAL sacrifice and offering for the atonement of sin.
 
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Lady

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26 And after three score and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determinedshall be poured upon the desolate.

I have always thought this verse referred to the anti-Christ when observing how the sentence is constructed. The thought that 9:27 refers to Christ Himself is indeed promoted among some scholars. Here is a comparison between 3 differing persons to whom Dan. 9:27 refers:

WHO IS "HE"?

(1) ANTICHRIST: Applying the accepted rule of interpretation and observing the text for the nearest antecedent of the pronoun he (without bias or influence by other "experts"), this hemost closely parallels the prince who is to come in the previous passage (Daniel 9:26). This is the conclusion reached by most conservative evangelical commentaries, who go on to identify him as the Little Horn (Antichrist) who "came up among the (10) horns" of the fourth beast (fourth kingdom ~ "Revived Rome") chapter 7 of Daniel (Da 7:8,11-note Da 7:20, 21-note).

It is interesting that both Christ and Antichrist are referred to as "prince" (synonymous with "king"), for the prefix "anti-" means the regal imposter is not only opposed to or against Christ, but "instead of" or a substitute for the real Christ.

We know that the prince's people (Rome) destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and can deduce that this coming prince has his ancestral roots in the ancient Roman Empire and is thus part of what is often referred to as "the revived Roman Empire", the final Gentile world government described in Romans 7 (see Da 7:7-note, Da 7:19-note). In the Revelation of Jesus Christ, John records this vision...

And he stood on the sand of the seashore. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems ("ten king stage" of the beast in Da 7), and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion (Ed: Note how this is the reverse of the sequence of same beasts in Da 7:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6-note - John is looking back in time and sees the leopard first = Greece, bear = Medo-Persia, Lion = Babylon). And the dragon (Satan) gave him (Antichrist) his power and his throne and great authority. (Notice how the term "beast" merges subtlety from a beastly kingdom to the king of that kingdom in the latter part of the verse) (Re 13:1-note; Re 13:2-note; see also study of The Beast; and Beasts, Heads, and Horns)

(2) CHRIST: Some such as Edward Young and Phillip Mauro interpret the "He" as a reference to the Messiah primarily because the entire prophecy is about the Messiah and the premise that there is no (to use their words) "future 'prince' making a covenant with" Israel. This interpretation makes little sense because the new covenant in His blood is an everlastingcovenant, not a seven year covenant and not a covenant which He will ever break. God is a covenant keeping God! How can the reference be to Christ when we have just been introduced to the prince who is to come which describes one out of the Roman empire? Christ did not come from the Roman Empire but from Israel. Furthermore, when did Christ make a firm covenant with many Jews for one week (seven year period)? And how can it be said of Christ that “in the midst of the week” He caused the sacrifices to cease? Sacrifices continued in the Temple some 40 years after Messiah was cut off, well past the 7 years of the 70th Week. Clearly, the "he" is not Christ.

Harry Ironside agrees that "He" is not the Messiah writing...

Ere closing I briefly notice a rather peculiar interpretation which is frequently given to the 27th verse. It is said that the Lord Jesus is Himself to be the prince that shall come who confirms the covenant for one week. His own crucifixion is supposed to be the event which caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. But neither chronologically nor doctrinally will this stand for a moment, if examined in the light of other scriptures. With whom did the Lord Jesus ever confirm a covenant for seven years? His precious blood is called ”the blood of the everlasting covenant;” not a covenant for one week of years. We may rest assured it is not Messiah at all, but the blasphemous prince who is yet to come, who will fulfil what is predicted in this verse.

How near this world may be to the actual entering upon all these things no man can say, but it is the part of wisdom to learn from the prophetic Scriptures, and to turn now to Him who alone can save; to own Him as Redeemer and Lord, and thus be certain of being caught up to meet Him when He comes in the clouds, ere the time comes for His righteous judgment to be poured out upon this poor world. (Daniel - H A Ironside)

Ray adds...

In deciding between the Messiah or the “prince to come” as the antecedent, Barnes contends “it is not reasonable to suppose that the latter is referred to, because it is said (Da 9:26) that the effect and the purpose of his coming would be to ‘destroy the city and the sanctuary.’ In other words Barnes is saying the prince is coming to make peace. He is wrong on two accounts. Da 9:26 says it is the people of the prince, not the prince himself, who execute the destruction. Too, he is implying it is reasonable to suppose the Messiah would bring about the devastation. To assume Da 9:27 deals with Christ is presumptuous, for that is the very question for which interpreters are seeking an answer. Lastly, it is not unthinkable a future leader would bring about such an agreement with Israel; people will do almost anything to have peace in the Middle East....Leupold and Keil are some of the few non-pre-millenarians who admit the “he” is the antichrist. (A Study of Daniel 9:24 - 27, Part III)

(3) ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES: (See related discussion on Antiochus Epiphanes - Da 8:9-note, Da 8:17-note, Da 8:19-note; see also Daniel notes and additional discussion) The liberal commentator Montgomery (who to my utter amazement does not even interpret Da 9:25, 26as a prophecy of Christ's first coming - See list of other Non-Christological Interpreters) identifies the "He" as Antiochus Epiphanes. Montgomery feels that this prophecy was fulfilled in the second century before Christ noting how apostate Jews cooperated with Antiochus (see 1Mac 1:11, 12, 13, 14, 15).

(4) A WEEK: The pronoun He has even been interpreted as a week by some who take he as neuter (not masculine), but such an interpretation of makes absolutely no sense in context. It does emphasize how far some commentators are willing to go in an attempt to "jettison" a literal, futuristic interpretation.

In summary, even applying the elementary grammatical rule of examination of the context for the nearest antecedent noun ("prince" in Da 9:26), there is little question that the pronoun Hein Da 9:27 is the future Antichrist, the evil end times anti-Semitic leader who is known by many names in Scripture (see table). And as you review the list of the names of the Antichrist, remember that in Scripture one's name speaks of one's character.
Con't.
http://www.preceptaustin.org/index.php/daniel_927
 

Tatilina

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Yeah....if you see it from a non-chronological order as I do and take the majority of scripture non-symbolically, then Pre-millennialism will be your favourite flavour. I tried to understand it from a Premill perspective, but I can't. I also studied Post-Millennialism and couldn't understand either of them except Amill. I didn't even know what Amill was until someone asked me if I was. I had to google it and found this link, which explained very well what I understand just from simply reading the bible without any commentaries.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/amillennial.shtml

I later found this which explains perfectly the binding of Satan.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/amill2.html

Interesting enough there are four current views that I know of in how and when the Millennial rule of Jesus Christ takes places.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

This link leaves out Karlysmom SDA view of the millennial reign that is suppose to occur in heaven. So
in total that leaves 5 different perspectives of understanding of scripture. The diversity and contrast is pretty remarkable when you realize just how much we comprehend word, verses and their meaning to us. It totally shapes your whole outlook on prophecy. I know that no where in scripture does it specifically state that the Anti-Christ will be a man, but is more referring to a spirit. I like what this link has to say regarding the word and it's meanings in different parts of scripture

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/topics/antichrist

I'm not for or against the idea of their being a one and final Anti-Christ ruler type of figure, but I'm not sold on it either because I see the spirit of the Anti-Christ spirit working in many, so my theory is that it is one spiritual entity spread throughout the world, just as is the holy spirit through the body of Christ. That is my understanding of what the Anti-Christ is and will be in the ending instead of just one man alone. I say this because scripture makes it clear that our bodies are considered temples now that God dwells within. Scripture makes it clear that he no longer dwells within temples or buildings made with human hands. This is why I disagree with a final temple needed to be constructed because you can't cause an abomination of desolation where God's spirit doesn't reside.

Okay this post was way too long. I respect and accept the various perspectives concerning this and I understand we are all going to perceive and interpret particular verses differently.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Wise observations. I think it is good to actually not have a fixed view on how everything might pan out.

I have what I would describe as a biblical opinion on end times, but some of these have shifted as I have considered alternative interpretations.

It is always tempting to stick with the views of our parents, church at favourite Bible teacher and I certainly went with this for a while.

It does not harm to keep an open mind and an open Bible when complex future possibilities are in consideration....
 

Tatilina

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Wise observations. I think it is good to actually not have a fixed view on how everything might pan out.

I have what I would describe as a biblical opinion on end times, but some of these have shifted as I have considered alternative interpretations.

It is always tempting to stick with the views of our parents, church at favourite Bible teacher and I certainly went with this for a while.

It does not harm to keep an open mind and an open Bible when complex future possibilities are in consideration....
I agree whole heartedly. I used to be so strict with my views absolutely convinced and determined to convince everyone who understood differently that I was right and they were wrong. I was really encouraged by someone in facebook that I used to
have to look into the other alternatives without biased for a change. I was young at the time and very over eccentric about my views.

I like that, a biblical opinion. I'll go with that. Mine has shifted dramatically over the years. I used to be Pre-trib at one time. I was sold on the rapture happening at any moment. I wouldn't mind if it happens! You won't see me putting up a fuss lol.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I can picture the Apostle Paul peering at the room through an slightly opaque, bubbled Roman glass as he was thinking on these things and penned the words...

"For now we see through a glass,darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
1 Corinthians 13:12

There is so much I want to understand. Sometimes I feel like a child reading a textbook on astrophysics, other times things are clear as day. I don't doubt the inspiration of the message but I do stumble sometimes in my comprehension...
 

Tatilina

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I can picture the Apostle Paul peering at the room through an slightly opaque, bubbled Roman glass as he was thinking on these things and penned the words...

"For now we see through a glass,darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
1 Corinthians 13:12

There is so much I want to understand. Sometimes I feel like a child reading a textbook on astrophysics, other times things are clear as day. I don't doubt the inspiration of the message but I do stumble sometimes in my comprehension...
That reminds me of when Jesus was trying to explain being born again, born of God, born of the spirit

John 3:12

12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

It is beyond our comprehension, so all we can do is imagine and speculate. We try to understand to thr best of our ability. I think we can all agree that as long as we are final face to face with Jesus, in his presence for eternity, to me that's what matters. Eschatology is not a salvational issue because it is how we interpret the scriptures of what happens afterwards. I think we will all be so much awe to worry about the minor details of when and where.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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I think Romans 10 puts it really clearly...

"9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."​

Everyone who is truly a Christian could read that and think "that's me". If the spiritual journey were like catching a cruise across the Atlantic, this is what puts you on the boat! Once on board various guests may look into, speculate and sadly sometimes argue about what the destination might be like, the design of the ship or the best way to spend the journey...
 

Mr. Blah

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I find it extremely strange for Christians to support the building of a temple along with the renewal of the sacrificial system! This is in effect denying the role of Jesus Christ in our salvation. The sacrifice of the Lamb of God was the end of that system. His-as the sinless Son-was the most pure sacrifice that ever could be offered and was the only one that God accepted as a final and complete recompense for man's sin.

When Jesus says, "I am the truth, the life, and the way," He is referencing the established Jewish perspective of the Torah as being "the way" to God. When the Son of God came to earth, this is what He-the Word-replaced as the way. He is the new Torah as He states He is the way.

I think the Hebrew Roots movements, et al, are preparing Christians for accepting a sacrifice system once again, and those who are deceived into these movements will be easy targets for the anti-Christ at his appearing.
What do you think about Ezekiel Temple?
 
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What do you think about Ezekiel Temple?
The million dollar question:

Ezekiel 37
24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@KoncreteMind - I think this passage hinges on your definition of who is meant by "David"...

How do you interpret it?

P.s. no fee will be provided despite it being a million dollar question ;-)
 
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I dont think my definition of "David" has anything to do with Ezekiel writing about a temple existing again. And that was just a cursory mention of it, Ezekiel 40-48 describes the temple in detail and says there will be sacrifices (blood being mentioned as well) and sin offerings etc.... Isnt that a reason to believe there will be a temple again?

But I think by "David" God is talking about one who will be the son of David and do the things mentioned in Ezekiel. That or David himself I guess. But thats because I personally believe that what Ezekiel wrote came from God so its bound to happen.
 

Damien50

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I dont think my definition of "David" has anything to do with Ezekiel writing about a temple existing again. And that was just a cursory mention of it, Ezekiel 40-48 describes the temple in detail and says there will be sacrifices (blood being mentioned as well) and sin offerings etc.... Isnt that a reason to believe there will be a temple again?

But I think by "David" God is talking about one who will be the son of David and do the things mentioned in Ezekiel. That or David himself I guess. But thats because I personally believe that what Ezekiel wrote came from God so its bound to happen.
Are we taking a millennial reign son of David scenario?
 

Damien50

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Well the text says forever which didn't always mean for eternity biblically speaking but I assume meant for more than 1000 years
My weak reading comprehending aside, in your opinion, is the David Jesus or some obscure successor yet to be revealed?
 
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My weak reading comprehending aside, in your opinion, is the David Jesus or some obscure successor yet to be revealed?
Jesus didn't fulfill it the first time around so for it to apply to him he'd have to fulfill it his next time around.
 
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