Jung, Steiner, Shamanism and the spiritual nieivity of Occultism

[Red Sky at Morning]

YouTube sometimes features content it thinks I might be interested in. Yesterday it decided I might want to find out more about Jung and Steiner. As the spirituality they espouse seems to be very popular on the @VigilantCitizen forum, I thought it might be really interesting to inspect the lives and claims of these two "greats of the esoteric Hermetic tradition".

P.s. HUGE disclaimer - I don't endorse the views held by the people in the video, but they do provide significant insight into the thinking of a significant and growing number of people I have interracted with.

 

[DavidSon]

Andrew Camargo and Jesse Stewart are not greats of the hermetic traditions! Also you misspelled "Nativity"...

Seriously I hope to check the video. But if we're talking about the trends of modern spirituality I wondered what you think of this list of Christian Movements- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_movements

It reminds me of what CS Lewis said, that people need to be Christian "something", like put your beliefs into action.

What do you make of these movements outside of the denominations?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Andrew Camargo and Jesse Stewart are not greats of the hermetic traditions! Also you misspelled "Nativity"...

Seriously I hope to check the video. But if we're talking about the trends of modern spirituality I wondered what you think of this list of Christian Movements- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_movements

It reminds me of what CS Lewis said, that people need to be Christian "something", like put your beliefs into action.

What do you make of these movements outside of the denominations?

Lol -

1 - I really did mean nieivity*

*Occustists seem to unquestioningly take "spiritual" experiences at face value and as such seem uniquely primed for deception

2 - The "greats of the Hermetic Esoteric Tradition" I referred to are Jung and Steiner, not the dudes in the video...

3 - that list was really useful. In some ways I can recognise areas of current Christian belief that I connect with, others seem to be examples of what C.S. Lewis terms "Christianity and" of which there are myriad.

 

[elsbet]

I've pulled this up so I can listen on the way in to work...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I listened carefully to what the guys in the video had to say. What struck me about them were two things - firstly they seemed like nice people, secondly they appeared to have unquestioningly bought every "insight" their spiritual researches had led them to.

The assumption appears to be that the in realm of spiritual experience, you become the standard by which the truth of experience is measured. If you feel that a long deceased relative appeared to you and told you to study Madame Blavatsky, ask no questions! In rebelling against dogma, these folk who were once involved in Christian fellowships are now calling Lucifer the "light bringer" and attending courses on Hermetic knowledge and higher selves!

To that, I would simply say that just as you would tell a child in the natural world to be suspicious of strangers, so would I say to an adult contemplating wandering the spiritual town at night and talking with anyone they met and taking what they were told at face value -



John 10:1-6

1 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”
6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Another popular voice in the "truth" movement with the same message as the nieive occultists in the OP...

Alan Watts

I can comprehend the power of the narrative here, but he has taken that narrative from the same spiritual sources as Jung and Steiner.

Unfortunately, when the masks slip from the faces of the "ancestral memory" and the "collective consciousness", the real and ordinary "doctrines of demons" are laid bare.

David Pawson puts a different angle on the subject:-

 

[DavidSon]

Lol -

1 - I really did mean nieivity*

*Occustists seem to unquestioningly take "spiritual" experiences at face value and as such seem uniquely primed for deception

2 - The "greats of the Hermetic Esoteric Tradition" I referred to are Jung and Steiner, not the dudes in the video...

3 - that list was really useful. In some ways I can recognise areas of current Christian belief that I connect with, others seem to be examples of what C.S. Lewis terms "Christianity and" of which there are myriad.

Sorry, that was my attempt at humor. I agree too, the list notes groups that I would have support for- and many that I strongly appose.

Well I listened to their presentation and found it worthwhile. I've never studied much of Jung or Steiner. As I understood their message, Jung represented study of the "soul", the psychology of our personal struggles. Steiner was part of Blavatsky's schools of occult/esoteric teachings, and his role to "new age" religions is in mapping out spiritual dimensions and progressions into that world. I've thumbed through one of Blavatsky's books and may read more sometime. I personally don't view this scene as demonic or naive. It's a wide world and people find what they do.

What struck me about their talk was their inclusion of entheogens (psychedelics), and I think it was mentioned Jung was experimenting with them. I wonder if there could be a divide between the people who have "tripped" and those who never have. For those raised in the Church who were "turned on", I think many felt a separation between the "shamanic" experience vs. the traditional Christian explanation of the world. For both the presenters their drug interactions deeply shaped their spiritual inquiries.

Both of the speakers view (as did Steiner) the Christ as a valid medium to relate their interpretation. I think it's a helpful message for younger people trying to erase God and Jesus. Again, not sure if they're any more egotistic or conceited than anybody else.

 

[JoChris]

.... I've thumbed through one of Blavatsky's books and may read more sometime. I personally don't view this scene as demonic or naive. It's a wide world and people find what they do.

Then you should be way more careful than you are right now.
Title: Blavatsky the Satanist: Luciferianism in Theosophy, and its Feminist Implications.
https://journal.fi/temenos/article/view/7512/6499

 

[DavidSon]

Then you should be way more careful than you are right now.
Title: Blavatsky the Satanist: Luciferianism in Theosophy, and its Feminist Implications.
https://journal.fi/temenos/article/view/7512/6499

View attachment 19794

Not a problem, because cats have 9 lives!!!

Before I respond to the article you linked I wanted to know: have you read it?

 

[JoChris]

Not a problem, because cats have 9 lives!!!

Before I respond to the article you linked I wanted to know: have you read it?

Yes I did. It is a very good one but a reader has to already have a good knowledge of different religions, feminism and basic knowledge of socialism for it to make any sense.

The writer was not accusing her of being a closet satanist, with Theosophy as her mask or cover. He was going into detail about how her comments RE Satan and Lucifer had obviously positive undertones.

Therefore people need to be aware that Blavatasky was certainly anti-Christian in her beliefs and teachings.

P.S. I know your cat has 9 lives is meant lightheartedly, but I have to be a killjoy anyway.
My cat didn't have 9 lives when my husband ran it over in a car.

It is way harder to cure spiritual sickness caused by ingesting false teachings than you would expect. The very subtle is often the most dangerous.

 

[Dalit]

It is way harder to cure spiritual sickness caused by ingesting false teachings than you would expect. The very subtle is often the most dangerous.

So true.

 

[DavidSon]

Yes I did. It is a very good one but a reader has to already have a good knowledge of different religions, feminism and basic knowledge of socialism for it to make any sense.

The writer was not accusing her of being a closet satanist, with Theosophy as her mask or cover. He was going into detail about how her comments RE Satan and Lucifer had obviously positive undertones.

Therefore people need to be aware that Blavatasky was certainly anti-Christian in her beliefs and teachings.

P.S. I know your cat has 9 lives is meant lightheartedly, but I have to be a killjoy anyway.
My cat didn't have 9 lives when my husband ran it over in a car.

It is way harder to cure spiritual sickness caused by ingesting false teachings than you would expect. The very subtle is often the most dangerous.

Thanks. I'm glad you read it because for a second I was like, "did JoChris send a 1/2 hour read and not even read it herself?" lol.

I agree that was a well written article. I looked up Faxneld also to see his background. IMO anyone who is at an adult reading level could comprehend this piece (if they were interested).

Great summary. She was completely anti-Christian, in the sense of the "orthodox" doctrines of the Church. Blavatsky said if anything she was a Buddhist. Faxneld did highlight the fact that Blavatky's use of satan as a trope evolved between her two major books, and that it was far from being a core aspect of Theosophy. It may not have been central but their affection for the devil was always there.

I never knew that lucifer was romanticized to such a degree by artists, poets (Shelly that snake), some socialists and feminists alike. There were several meanings. One idea was about praising Eve for bringing "knowledge" to the world. Another (creepy) take is that this being is androgynous and therefore represents balance. Ultimately satanism was an intellectual concept of a "lightbringer" who was a symbol for several of the counter-cultural movements of the day.

So back on topic- I doubt you have to warn anyone about Blavatsky, because I doubt there are many that can read even a full chapter of her abstruse wanderings. I don't know if the masses have lost their intellectual ability or what, but if someone of today can actually comprehend it I say go ahead. That's why I don't think the Canadian group in the video are all naive. They're intelligent people dedicated to following their vision of truth and only God could tell them otherwise. It'd be awkward to try and "convert" these folks. The Jahovah's Witnesses probably think the same thing about me. We've talked with friendship but they know I will never be part of their congregation.

I disagree there can be harm in reading any topic related to spirituality. We're not little children. Visual images like hollywood movies and sounds are another thing, but nothing gets into the "temple" of the mind without understanding. God will guide and protect. I've always enjoyed learning about others' faith. I love learning from descent people, hearing them out. You'll never get through to people without being able to communicate in their language.

 

[Faker He-Man]

Thanks. I'm glad you read it because for a second I was like, "did JoChris send a 1/2 hour read and not even read it herself?" lol.

I agree that was a well written article. I looked up Faxneld also to see his background. IMO anyone who is at an adult reading level could comprehend this piece (if they were interested).

Great summary. She was completely anti-Christian, in the sense of the "orthodox" doctrines of the Church. Blavatsky said if anything she was a Buddhist. Faxneld did highlight the fact that Blavatky's use of satan as a trope evolved between her two major books, and that it was far from being a core aspect of Theosophy. It may not have been central but their affection for the devil was always there.

I never knew that lucifer was romanticized to such a degree by artists, poets (Shelly that snake), some socialists and feminists alike. There were several meanings. One idea was about praising Eve for bringing "knowledge" to the world. Another (creepy) take is that this being is androgynous and therefore represents balance. Ultimately satanism was an intellectual concept of a "lightbringer" who was a symbol for several of the counter-cultural movements of the day.

So back on topic- I doubt you have to warn anyone about Blavatsky, because I doubt there are many that can read even a full chapter of her abstruse wanderings. I don't know if the masses have lost their intellectual ability or what, but if someone of today can actually comprehend it I say go ahead. That's why I don't think the Canadian group in the video are all naive. They're intelligent people dedicated to following their vision of truth and only God could tell them otherwise. It'd be awkward to try and "convert" these folks. The Jahovah's Witnesses probably think the same thing about me. We've talked with friendship but they know I will never be part of their congregation.

I disagree there can be harm in reading any topic related to spirituality. We're not little children. Visual images like hollywood movies and sounds are another thing, but nothing gets into the "temple" of the mind without understanding. God will guide and protect. I've always enjoyed learning about others' faith. I love learning from descent people, hearing them out. You'll never get through to people without being able to communicate in their language.

I don’t really know much about Blavatsky, but a few years ago I had read something she had written, and quickly recognized that portions of the text were automatic writing through a distorted channel. (I realize what I’m saying might be too crazy for many people, no worries)

I call it hijacking. Like a false connection... kinda like how telemarketers will make it seem like the call is coming from some local phone number. Using telepathy I traced the source of the text back to a negative entity that is no longer connected to our planet. These negative parasitic types of entities are no longer compatible with our planet and are unable to latch themselves onto the new planetary grid, only the old one. All that are left now are like “shells” of these entities- thought forms that persist and merge themselves with AI.

 

[Dalit]

I don’t really know much about Blavatsky, but a few years ago I had read something she had written, and quickly recognized that portions of the text were automatic writing through a distorted channel. (I realize what I’m saying might be too crazy for many people, no worries)

I call it hijacking. Like a false connection... kinda like how telemarketers will make it seem like the call is coming from some local phone number. Using telepathy I traced the source of the text back to a negative entity that is no longer connected to our planet. These negative parasitic types of entities are no longer compatible with our planet and are unable to latch themselves onto the new planetary grid, only the old one. All that are left now are like “shells” of these entities- thought forms that persist and merge themselves with AI.

You used telepathy? That is a bit far out, dude, but i believe you on the auto writing. Dangerous.

 

[Faker He-Man]

You used telepathy? That is a bit far out, dude, but i believe you on the auto writing. Dangerous.

Everyone uses telepathy, it’s just a matter of whether or not you are doing it consciously. It is a function that resides in our subconscious where the illusion of “separateness” is not nearly as significant.

From the cradle to the grave, we are programmed and conditioned into the false perception that it’s all just “far out” as you called it.

 

[JoChris]

Thanks. I'm glad you read it because for a second I was like, "did JoChris send a 1/2 hour read and not even read it herself?" lol.

I agree that was a well written article. I looked up Faxneld also to see his background. IMO anyone who is at an adult reading level could comprehend this piece (if they were interested).

Great summary. She was completely anti-Christian, in the sense of the "orthodox" doctrines of the Church. Blavatsky said if anything she was a Buddhist. Faxneld did highlight the fact that Blavatky's use of satan as a trope evolved between her two major books, and that it was far from being a core aspect of Theosophy. It may not have been central but their affection for the devil was always there.

On itablet.
Her anti-Christian position is exactly why the vast majority of Christians should not read Blavatsky's writings at all. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18

I never knew that lucifer was romanticized to such a degree by artists, poets (Shelly that snake), some socialists and feminists alike. There were several meanings. One idea was about praising Eve for bringing "knowledge" to the world. Another (creepy) take is that this being is androgynous and therefore represents balance. Ultimately satanism was an intellectual concept of a "lightbringer" who was a symbol for several of the counter-cultural movements of the day.

Yes I realised what you said only via researching different topics here and there, from memory wanting to know where modern music styles had similarities with traditional pagan music/ beats. There I learnt about occulticism being throughout **classical ** music via different note patterns. Art and music are close relatives. So via following names in the article I saw a lot of occult symbolism was present in all forms of classical art. (So modern Christians who think the "'devil's music" started with Rock and Roll are incorrect.)

I think many took advantage of the fact that the average person was completely illiterate and so they were a lot more open in some ways, despite using coded language.

So back on topic- I doubt you have to warn anyone about Blavatsky, because I doubt there are many that can read even a full chapter of her abstruse wanderings. I don't know if the masses have lost their intellectual ability or what, but if someone of today can actually comprehend it I say go ahead. That's why I don't think the Canadian group in the video are all naive. They're intelligent people dedicated to following their vision of truth and only God could tell them otherwise. It'd be awkward to try and "convert" these folks. The Jahovah's Witnesses probably think the same thing about me. We've talked with friendship but they know I will never be part of their congregation.

In the intellectual sense I have no doubt you are able to consider multiple viewpoints simultaneously and reach your own personal conclusions. People like us in the real world are quite rare. Fewer than you expect on a forum like this have that ability either.
Therefore I handle information of this nature like the way I gave my sons housework and responsibilities, according to age and maturity.
There are many who will always be intellectually "immature". I don't give links above M audience level for that reason.

I disagree there can be harm in reading any topic related to spirituality. We're not little children. Visual images like hollywood movies and sounds are another thing, but nothing gets into the "temple" of the mind without understanding. God will guide and protect. I've always enjoyed learning about others' faith. I love learning from descent people, hearing them out. You'll never get through to people without being able to communicate in their language.

From the Christian viewpoint: the fact that in several places on this forum you seem to believe that Jews, Christians and Muslims have the same God shows you are less spiritually mature than you realise.

Being willing to listen to conflicting viewpoints does take some maturity that sadly many people do not gain.
Refusing to notice core differences that cause belief systems to be completely incompatible is not mature.

Adults recognize and keep boundaries if and when necessary. Teenagers go along with the crowd peer pressure and try to get on with everybody, even if they can see what the ringleaders are doing is wrong.

Islam compared to Christianity is as incompatible as Dawkins' Evolution Theory with Biblical Creationism. If you can see the core doctrines shown in 1 John 5, surely you can see how a religion that says Jesus is a mere prophet can never have the same God?

If you want to a start a bible study thread with Christians on a topic that interests you personally I am now open to do that.

 

[DavidSon]

...In the intellectual sense I have no doubt you are able to consider multiple viewpoints simultaneously and reach your own personal conclusions. People like us in the real world are quite rare. Fewer than you expect on a forum like this have that ability either...

I would argue the opposite on this point. We're not that special. This forum is filled with highly intelligent people. Now who would want to spend their time on 1500 pages of occult theology...that's another story.

Thinking about our discussion I would make a few amends to what I previously stated. I have no interest in MB's thosophy at the moment. Also I would never recommend something so extreme to a young person. Anyone who asks me what to read I say start with the Bible or Quran.

This reminds of something else from the video. The one fellow heads a group based on the use of psychedelics, creating a dream journal, etc. Now that's what's dangerous. These substances are so powerful, they permanently alter the psyche. It's not safe to be leading strangers this way, say at a college campus. Entheogens are not right for everybody and a guy like this shouldn't trust himself to be the judge of who's strong enough for such medicine.

 

[JoChris]

I would argue the opposite on this point. We're not that special. This forum is filled with highly intelligent people. Now who would want to spend their time on 1500 pages of occult theology...that's another story.

Thinking about our discussion I would make a few amends to what I previously stated. I have no interest in MB's thosophy at the moment. Also I would never recommend something so extreme to a young person. Anyone who asks me what to read I say start with the Bible or Quran.

This reminds of something else from the video. The one fellow heads a group based on the use of psychedelics, creating a dream journal, etc. Now that's what's dangerous. These substances are so powerful, they permanently alter the psyche. It's not safe to be leading strangers this way, say at a college campus. Entheogens are not right for everybody and a guy like this shouldn't trust himself to be the judge of who's strong enough for such medicine.

On itablet.

That is a bit of false modesty. You definitely have been blessed by God with intelligence + good education.
In this type of forum, the regular contributors who are able to consistently defend their position without cut-and-pasting or resorting to ad hominem attacks prove they have high intelligence.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses. One of my strengths is my ability to quickly judge between good or bad according to the Christian viewpoint. I saw and experienced a lot of spiritual error before I became a really serious Christian. My warning radar is very sensitive as a result. I have been in the actual pits where following temptations for long enough ensnare people terribly.
My other gift I have is that God brings bible passages to mind. This verse ties in with my previous paragraph. Isaiah 51:1

I consistently have the internet surfers in mind who (for whatever reason) don't know the dangers of the occult AND have my curious nature. Thank goodness **I** did not have the internet when I was a preteen!

----
Why would you recommend a religious text that contradicts the bible? Two contradictory statements cannot be both correct at the same time.
What is claimed to be holy and uplifting in Islamic texts is the Old Testament paraphrased.

----
Back to topic on Carl Jung: he got material from his spirit guide Philemon.

Pro psychoanalysis viewpoint: http://philemonfoundation.org/about-philemon/who-is-philemon/
Christian apologetics viewpoint: https://www.drmikespaulding.com/?p=1663

And for light-reading (ha!) scroll down to "exposing roots" and there is an 86 page pdf file "the teachings of Carl Jung..."" http://www.christiandiscernment.com/View and Print.htm

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

On itablet.

That is a bit of false modesty. You definitely have been blessed by God with intelligence + good education.
In this type of forum, the regular contributors who are able to consistently defend their position without cut-and-pasting or resorting to ad hominem attacks prove they have high intelligence.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses. One of my strengths is my ability to quickly judge between good or bad according to the Christian viewpoint. I saw and experienced a lot of spiritual error before I became a really serious Christian. My warning radar is very sensitive as a result. I have been in the actual pits where following temptations for long enough ensnare people terribly.
My other gift I have is that God brings bible passages to mind. This verse ties in with my previous paragraph. Isaiah 51:1

I consistently have the internet surfers in mind who (for whatever reason) don't know the dangers of the occult AND have my curious nature. Thank goodness **I** did not have the internet when I was a preteen!

----
Why would you recommend a religious text that contradicts the bible? Two contradictory statements cannot be both correct at the same time.
What is claimed to be holy and uplifting in Islamic texts is the Old Testament paraphrased.

----
Back to topic on Carl Jung: he got material from his spirit guide Philemon.

Pro psychoanalysis viewpoint: http://philemonfoundation.org/about-philemon/who-is-philemon/
Christian apologetics viewpoint: https://www.drmikespaulding.com/?p=1663

So good Jo - apologies for cutting and pasting - I'm not stupid, I'm just at work right now ;-)

...

Carl Jung, Culture and Apologetics – M. Brunet


Carl Jung, born 1875 and died in 1961, may have more to do with the cultural direction we see today then one might realize. His influence and thinking has touched “not only psychiatry but also philosophy, anthropology, archaeology, literature, and religious studies” according to Wikipedia and is even seen today in “twelve-step programs, video games, novels, movies and educational materials used” according to Dr. Peter Jones. An early disciple of Freud, he parted ways and began a version of psychological wholeness that would find a basis in the spiritual realm. Unlike Freud, who believed religion was mythical and went so far as seeing it as a sickness in need of a cure, Jung saw “classical religion” (ancient pagan and mythological religion), as the vehicle to explain and solve human behavior and this healing would come through psychology and the wisdom found in cultures. This view led Jung to claim to claim that “we are on the threshold of a new spiritual epoch” and that he was developing “the worlds final, unitary religion”. The true nature of his quest can be scene in the this quote…

“I imagine a far finer and more comprehensive task for (psychoanalysis)…I think we must give it more time to influence people from many centers, to revivify among intellectuals a feeling for symbol and myth, ever so gently to transform Christ back into the soothsaying god of the vine, which He was, and in this way absorb those ecstatic instinctual forces of Christianity for the one purpose of making the cult and the sacred myth what they once were—a drunken feast of joy where man regained his ethos and holiness of an animal. That was the beauty and purpose of classical religion” (Richard Noll, Aryan Christ ,54)

 

[Dalit]

The one fellow heads a group based on the use of psychedelics, creating a dream journal, etc.

This is not to change subjects slightly, yet felt like I was supposed to address the "dream journal" portion here.

Dream journaling is also promoted in mystical miracle Christianity or some segments of Pentecostal Christianity and I have a problem with that. It's all about subjective experience and interpreting signs and omens, much like augury.

I have lucid dreams like movies. I used to think it was cool, but I don't anymore since I've seen whole congregations led astray by dreams and subjective experiences.

I can tell you that out of my millions of dreams, only one I know for sure was from God because it led me closer to God. It basically was about this: stop worshipping and idealizing this boy/man you've liked since you were 9 years old and worship the true and living God. So I knew it was from God. In the dream I had the option of choosing the boy, now a man, or God. I chose God even though it was the harder choice in some ways.

So the whole dream thing is also a little too much in the church these days. There's nothing inherently wrong with dreaming, yet I don't believe we should journal every dream we have and try to interpret our lives through our dreams.