Jung, Steiner, Shamanism and the spiritual nieivity of Occultism

[Dalit]

“I imagine a far finer and more comprehensive task for (psychoanalysis)…I think we must give it more time to influence people from many centers, to revivify among intellectuals a feeling for symbol and myth, ever so gently to transform Christ back into the soothsaying god of the vine, which He was, and in this way absorb those ecstatic instinctual forces of Christianity for the one purpose of making the cult and the sacred myth what they once were—a drunken feast of joy where man regained his ethos and holiness of an animal. That was the beauty and purpose of classical religion” (Richard Noll, Aryan Christ ,54)

"Soothsaying god of the vine"?? "Aryan Christ"? This is some dangerous stuff, my friend. Glad you recognize the danger. Not everyone does and I know this from personal experience.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

"Soothsaying god of the vine"?? "Aryan Christ"? This is some dangerous stuff, my friend. Glad you recognize the danger. Not everyone does and I know this from personal experience.

The thing is, the mystical spirituality popular on this forum takes the work of Jung and Steiner (it seems) as foundational. Alan Watts is another name that comes up a lot and he promotes that same spirituality.

 

[JoChris]

This is not to change subjects slightly, yet felt like I was supposed to address the "dream journal" portion here.

Dream journaling is also promoted in mystical miracle Christianity or some segments of Pentecostal Christianity and I have a problem with that. It's all about subjective experience and interpreting signs and omens, much like augury.

I have lucid dreams like movies. I used to think it was cool, but I don't anymore since I've seen whole congregations led astray by dreams and subjective experiences.

I can tell you that out of my millions of dreams, only one I know for sure was from God because it led me closer to God. It basically was about this: stop worshipping and idealizing this boy/man you've liked since you were 9 years old and worship the true and living God. So I knew it was from God. In the dream I had the option of choosing the boy, now a man, or God. I chose God even though it was the harder choice in some ways.

So the whole dream thing is also a little too much in the church these days. There's nothing inherently wrong with dreaming, yet I don't believe we should journal every dream we have and try to interpret our lives through our dreams.

You sound like you might enjoy Pastor Mike Hoggard's YouTube channel. I am sure that he said in the past that he had gone to a Charismatic meeting, asked God if it was truly from Him that he (Hoggard) would receive it... but he never did.
He is very KJV bible old school type preacher, but if it wasn't for him I would never have known a thing about the Mandela Effect before I came to this forum.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

"There is a way that seems right to a man..."

Steiner's "progression" from science to occultism...

Who would have thought the words in such an old letter would come so literally true?

"1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

~ 1 Timothy 4

 

[Aero]

Don't you all get tired of harping on Jung? I mean how many scapegoats does it take to rationalize a belief system?

Carl Jung was not a spiritual guru practicing shamanism in the woods. He went to a University and studied to become a doctor. The shamanism in the woods came well after that. <wink>

I'm not trying to attack anyone's beliefs here. I just don't see the point of trying to tie Jung into it. It doesn't make sense. The Church of Satanism doesn't have Carl Jung as required reading material. Most occult circles probably avoid him completely because their members are too stupid to understand it.

In my cult, Jung is like an introduction to the subconscious. And you learn about universal archetypes as a way to gain insight into any situation where human behavior is involved. After that, it's really all chaos magic. Telepathy is a good skill, but without a hyper-sigil backing it up you aren't building anything. You need to be able to directly inject commands into yours and others subconscious.

If God didn't want us to have these gifts than we wouldn't have them. So nobody is lying to me about anything. I see how it all works in practical applications and I use it however God allows. I'm a very honest and transparent person. Therefore the very idea that I'm some follower of the king of lies is simple lunacy.

 

[DavidSon]

This is not to change subjects slightly, yet felt like I was supposed to address the "dream journal" portion here.

Dream journaling is also promoted in mystical miracle Christianity or some segments of Pentecostal Christianity and I have a problem with that. It's all about subjective experience and interpreting signs and omens, much like augury.

I have lucid dreams like movies. I used to think it was cool, but I don't anymore since I've seen whole congregations led astray by dreams and subjective experiences.

I can tell you that out of my millions of dreams, only one I know for sure was from God because it led me closer to God. It basically was about this: stop worshipping and idealizing this boy/man you've liked since you were 9 years old and worship the true and living God. So I knew it was from God. In the dream I had the option of choosing the boy, now a man, or God. I chose God even though it was the harder choice in some ways.

So the whole dream thing is also a little too much in the church these days. There's nothing inherently wrong with dreaming, yet I don't believe we should journal every dream we have and try to interpret our lives through our dreams.

I had no idea that there were churches that got this involved in dreams! Wild. You think they'd take to heart Deuteronomy 13- to beware of "dreamers of dreams."

JoChris mentioned gifts we are given, and I wonder if you consider (remembering) dreams a gift? It's weird I've met people who say, "I never remember my dreams." Maybe too much cannabis, haha.

I (like most seekers) picked up a few books on lucid dreaming back in the day but was never much of a "dreamer." I also got into Carlos Castaneda's books and ate them up like a teenager reading Stephen King, but the stories and that reality didn't really "stick" for me.

I love dreams when I remember them and getting shook to the core of my "self", but I definitely learned early don't try and make conversation of them. They're impossible to relay and you can watch people's eyes/minds wander off without being able to relate.

Are there things that trigger more lucid dreams for you? I'd enjoy hearing any more thoughts you have on the subject.

 

[JoChris]

Don't you all get tired of harping on Jung? I mean how many scapegoats does it take to rationalize a belief system?

Carl Jung was not a spiritual guru practicing shamanism in the woods. He went to a University and studied to become a doctor. The shamanism in the woods came well after that. <wink>

I'm not trying to attack anyone's beliefs here. I just don't see the point of trying to tie Jung into it. It doesn't make sense. The Church of Satanism doesn't have Carl Jung as required reading material. Most occult circles probably avoid him completely because their members are too stupid to understand it.

In my cult, Jung is like an introduction to the subconscious. And you learn about universal archetypes as a way to gain insight into any situation where human behavior is involved. After that, it's really all chaos magic. Telepathy is a good skill, but without a hyper-sigil backing it up you aren't building anything. You need to be able to directly inject commands into yours and others subconscious.

If God didn't want us to have these gifts than we wouldn't have them. So nobody is lying to me about anything. I see how it all works in practical applications and I use it however God allows. I'm a very honest and transparent person. Therefore the very idea that I'm some follower of the king of lies is simple lunacy.

If you are not following Jesus Christ you are automatically following Satan.
If reject the Truth you will embrace ***a*** lie of some variety.

Jung's material is one of the many ways that Satan gets in the back door of an unsaved person's mind.

I would never have read a Satanist's book. I read a lot of psychology books though. Jung's fingerprints are everywhere through psychology theories that are not scientific/ medical in nature.

 

[JoChris]

I had no idea that there were churches that got this involved in dreams! Wild. You think they'd take to heart Deuteronomy 13- to beware of "dreamers of dreams."

JoChris mentioned gifts we are given, and I wonder if you consider (remembering) dreams a gift? It's weird I've met people who say, "I never remember my dreams." Maybe too much cannabis, haha.

I (like most seekers) picked up a few books on lucid dreaming back in the day but was never much of a "dreamer." I also got into Carlos Castaneda's books and ate them up like a teenager reading Stephen King, but the stories and that reality didn't really "stick" for me.

I love dreams when I remember them and getting shook to the core of my "self", but I definitely learned early don't try and make conversation of them. They're impossible to relay and you can watch people's eyes/minds wander off without being able to relate.

Are there things that trigger more lucid dreams for you? I'd enjoy hearing any more thoughts you have on the subject.

I don't remember dreams any more. I haven't ever taken any illegal drugs either.

 

[neptunejoo]

Jung had laid profound theories about unconsciousness. Especially what he calls cognitive functions, it can be very helpful to understand people, especially personality.

His books though, it's hard to comprehend. It feels like the man speaking in constant symbolisms and the reference he makes are not from this realm.

 

[DavidSon]

I don't remember dreams any more. I haven't ever taken any illegal drugs either.

Well cannabis isn't illegal in the US anymore- you should take a vacation and visit the Pacific Redwoods.

If you are not following Jesus Christ you are automatically following Satan.
If reject the Truth you will embrace ***a*** lie of some variety.

Jung's material is one of the many ways that Satan gets in the back door of an unsaved person's mind.

I would never have read a Satanist's book. I read a lot of psychology books though. Jung's fingerprints are everywhere through psychology theories that are not scientific/ medical in nature.

Isn't there a time and place for preaching? You've made the truth known often enough. Now if we were at your church's website, I'd understand, but here at VC it feels to me a little out of line.

beelzebub is in the murdering politicians, the banksters and capitalists who exploit the earth and human beings for their own profit. There was a great post reminding us of the true enemy, the evil forces trying to exterminate ALL faith. The elite have descent people warring each other while they thieve us and the planet.

Looking at older threads I realize huh, there were dozens of people sharing their views and talking. Do you really want to silence peoples voices and sit here alone? If we're alive in the holy spirit we create an environment where all want to be near, even creatures draw closer. Repeating condemnation is not the only way bring people to Jesus.

What you said about Jung in the field of psychology was FAR more relevant. It gets back to one of the main discussions at VC, how the occult/esoteric beliefs are embedded into every facet of contemporary society.

 

[Dalit]

I had no idea that there were churches that got this involved in dreams! Wild. You think they'd take to heart Deuteronomy 13- to beware of "dreamers of dreams."

JoChris mentioned gifts we are given, and I wonder if you consider (remembering) dreams a gift? It's weird I've met people who say, "I never remember my dreams." Maybe too much cannabis, haha.

I (like most seekers) picked up a few books on lucid dreaming back in the day but was never much of a "dreamer." I also got into Carlos Castaneda's books and ate them up like a teenager reading Stephen King, but the stories and that reality didn't really "stick" for me.

I love dreams when I remember them and getting shook to the core of my "self", but I definitely learned early don't try and make conversation of them. They're impossible to relay and you can watch people's eyes/minds wander off without being able to relate.

Are there things that trigger more lucid dreams for you? I'd enjoy hearing any more thoughts you have on the subject.

I had no idea that there were churches that got this involved in dreams! Wild. You think they'd take to heart Deuteronomy 13- to beware of "dreamers of dreams."

JoChris mentioned gifts we are given, and I wonder if you consider (remembering) dreams a gift? It's weird I've met people who say, "I never remember my dreams." Maybe too much cannabis, haha.

I (like most seekers) picked up a few books on lucid dreaming back in the day but was never much of a "dreamer." I also got into Carlos Castaneda's books and ate them up like a teenager reading Stephen King, but the stories and that reality didn't really "stick" for me.

I love dreams when I remember them and getting shook to the core of my "self", but I definitely learned early don't try and make conversation of them. They're impossible to relay and you can watch people's eyes/minds wander off without being able to relate.

Are there things that trigger more lucid dreams for you? I'd enjoy hearing any more thoughts you have on the subject.

Well, DavidSon, I'm not sure how I remember a lot of dreams. It might've been from purposely seeking to keep a journal of them and/or taking Klonipin at night for anxiety for 3 years while in grad school. I don't recommend Klonipin. It also blunted my personality for awhile and when I went off of it, I was back to my feisty self and some of my friends didn't like the real me. Oh, well. Not my friends anyway, right?

It may be from eating pizza or combinations of foods for all I know. I tried to find the "dream diet" sequence from the 1938 movie Carefree, but all I could find is the dream itself. The dream diet consists of lobster with gobs of mayonnaise, Welsh rabbit, cucumbers in buttermilk, and strawberry shortcake. It sounds terrible, doesn't it?

No, I think I always had the gift of dreams, even though it has been both great and terrible. The first dream I recall is one where my next door neighbor at the time and my best friend gets hit by a car and her image used as a public service announcement. That's rather messed up.

I did have a romantic dream about the boy/man, that I idealized throughout grade school through high school, and I dancing to Anita Baker's "Rapture" much like Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. It never happened, of course. Didn't get to dance with him. I was too shy actually when I realized my friend was growing up to be smoking hot. He never had an awkward phase.

Don't know if this helps any. Don't take drugs, even prescription ones, to try to dream.

 

[shankara]

beelzebub is in the murdering politicians, the banksters and capitalists who exploit the earth and human beings for their own profit. There was a great post reminding us of the true enemy, the evil forces trying to exterminate ALL faith. The elite have descent people warring each other while they thieve us and the planet.

Amen. Or should I say, OM.

 

[Aero]

If you are not following Jesus Christ you are automatically following Satan.
If reject the Truth you will embrace ***a*** lie of some variety.

Jung's material is one of the many ways that Satan gets in the back door of an unsaved person's mind.

I would never have read a Satanist's book. I read a lot of psychology books though. Jung's fingerprints are everywhere through psychology theories that are not scientific/ medical in nature.

Well, it's pretty tough to just read Jesus. Considering there's very little that he actually wrote.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say, you are following the Apostles? Besides, that sounds like a very narrow world view you are holding there. Plus it seems pretty odd that God would give us so little material regarding actual Jesus.

 

[Faker He-Man]

Telepathy is a good skill, but without a hyper-sigil backing it up you aren't building anything. You need to be able to directly inject commands into yours and others subconscious.

um, how about NOPE? Infringing on others’ free-will in any way is not a good idea dude. You’re in a cult? Cults are mind-poison.

 

[Aero]

um, how about NOPE? Infringing on others’ free-will in any way is not a good idea dude. You’re in a cult? Cults are mind-poison.

Lol no, I am the cult.

And how is using telepathy not infringing on others free will? I mean did you ask permission before you deployed your subconscious will?

 

[Faker He-Man]

Lol no, I am the cult.

And how is using telepathy not infringing on others free will? I mean did you ask permission before you deployed your subconscious will?

I only use telepathy for knowledge/awareness, never for influence. It's gravely unwise, besides I have no interest in power or control.

Edit: engaging in the practice of remote influence, especially when done unwittingly, is a good example of *naivety/*naiveté. (you're welcome, @Red Sky at Morning )

 

[Faker He-Man]

oh, and privacy is an illusion by the way, therefore it's not something that can ever be "invaded". In reality, the only secret is that there are no secrets.

 

[Aero]

I only use telepathy for knowledge/awareness, never for influence. It's gravely unwise, besides I have no interest in power or control.

Edit: engaging in the practice of remote influence, especially when done unwittingly, is a good example of *naivety/*naiveté. (you're welcome, @Red Sky at Morning )

Appreciate the advice, but don't really need a lecture.

Knowledge is power. So I don't believe you when you say you have no interest in power. Plus I don't see how one could avoid their own remote influence. Should we all go live in caves? More importantly, would it even matter? I think I could be on Mars and influence the Earth.

What I describe isn't a product of being naive. It's a product of knowledge. It's the knowledge you all want, but are afraid to fully understand.

 

[Faker He-Man]

Appreciate the advice, but don't really need a lecture.

Knowledge is power. So I don't believe you when you say you have no interest in power. Plus I don't see how one could avoid their own remote influence. Should we all go live in caves? More importantly, would it even matter? I think I could be on Mars and influence the Earth.

What I describe isn't a product of being naive. It's a product of knowledge. It's the knowledge you all want, but are afraid to fully understand.

Knowledge is personal power, not power over others. There is a huge difference, and you're not being specific about it. There is an important choice we face when awakening to knowledge and awareness: acceptance or control. I chose acceptance.

 

[Aero]

Knowledge is personal power, not power over others. There is a huge difference, and you're not being specific about it. There is an important choice we face when awakening to knowledge and awareness: acceptance or control. I chose acceptance.

Ok, well I like your philosophy. I just don't see it being that practical.

Maybe I have been hardened, or I just believe in being blunt about what we actually face. I don't see knowledge as some great awakening, I see it as the opening of floodgates. Acceptance would be the first thing you should feel, and that includes accepting that you will never have control.

Only when you submit to the power of the flood will you begin to understand how fate isn't in your own hands. It's not in anyone else's hands either. There are no violations of free will, only what God allows us to do. Sorry but the average Sadist doesn't have a problem violating anyone's free will. And I think their victims would of much rather preferred some Telepathy and tarot card readings.