Some simple questions about the "trinity" that no "Christian" seems to be able to answer

[Alanantic]

@A Freeman is like the 2D square on a piece of paper telling all other 2D squares on that piece of paper how ridiculous it is to believe in cubes.

I believe in cubes. That's why I'm trying to become one.

 

[A Freeman]

If we take an honest look at the irrational nonsense that @Artful Revealer is trying to promote as "logical", it should become self-evident that he doesn't know what he's talking about, at least to those who haven't been duped by the trinity delusion.

In the past I've presented you a logical formula to illustrate why your theory doesn't hold up. Here's another one:

A. Jesus is the Word. (biblical)
B. The Word is God. (biblical)
------------------------------------
Correct conclusion: Jesus is God

Freeman's conclusion: Jesus is not God (he calls this biblical).

So here's something for you to ponder so you would stop making the wrong conclusions:

Jesus is the Word, but the Word exists independently from Jesus (the human).

A. While it is understood (and thus not debated) that Christ is frequently referenced indirectly as the Word of God (as the Bible itself is referred to as the Word of God), IF what is stated above by @Artful Revealer is true, then he should be able to provide us with at least one verse that specifically states Jesus is the Word.

B. While it is understood (and thus not debated) that the Word OF God IS His Message of Truth in ALL of its forms, even John 1:1 states that in the Beginning WAS the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and that the Word WAS God.

The correct and only logical conclusion is that the word "word" means exactly what it says, i.e. that it is God's Message of Truth in ALL of its forms, which has always been with God, even before the beginning of time, before God created/made Prince Michael/Christ. A word is a means of conveying a message, and God's Message and doctrine is TRUTH.

It is completely and totally illogical to redefine the word "word", in a vain attempt to deceive others and to call Christ a liar. Christ NEVER claimed to be God, and HUNDREDS of Biblical verses bear that truth to this world.

But that is what the victims of the anti-Christ doctrine of the "trinity" do: redefine common-use words, in their vain attempt to hammer fit their triangular nonsense into the holes in people's heads.

Below is a list of some of the terms unbelievers attempt to redefine to promote their satanic "trinity" doctrine:

God
The MOST High (there are NONE higher, or equal to)
Omnipotent (All-Powerful)
Omniscient (All-Knowing)
Omnipresent (Present Everywhere at ALL times)
One
Two
Three
Greater than
Equal to
Godhead
The Head of
Invisible
Visible
Image
Born
Firstborn
Creature
Father
Son
Brethren
Creature
Man
Son of God
Christ
Son of Man
Jesus
OF (from)
Mediator
Heir
Inheritance
Anointed
Appointed
Given
Made
Nothing
Word

All of the above words/terms mean exactly what they say and NOT something entirely different, i.e. one really means one, two really means two, three really means three, and word really means word, etc.

Anyone who claims differently is a liar, and the truth is NOT in them (1 John 2:4).

 

[A Freeman]

1 Corinthians 8:6-7
8:6 But to us [there is only] ONE God, the Father, of Whom [are] all things, and we of Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
8:7 Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat [it] as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

1 Timothy 2:3-5
2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the Knowledge of The Truth.
2:5 For [there is] ONE God, AND One mediator BETWEEN God and men, the Man Jesus Christ;

 

[AdjeYen]

1 Corinthians 8:6-7
8:6 But to us [there is only] ONE God, the Father, of Whom [are] all things, and we of Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
8:7 Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat [it] as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

1 Timothy 2:3-5
2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the Knowledge of The Truth.
2:5 For [there is] ONE God, AND One mediator BETWEEN God and men, the Man Jesus Christ;

This doesn't mean anything because a Christian who defends the trinity to the bones will show up and say: "Yes and no. That's actually his one form out of 3 because God has 3 forms. Doh." xd
I guess people love to take out the context of the bible however they want.

 

[Alanantic]

Why not just admit God's Everything (and Nothing)? God's Oneness. God's Duality. God's a Trinity. God's the 4 things. Etc.

"God is endless above and below the universe. There is no place, or even the smallest particle that it does not permeate.
God permeates all of the water, land, wood, and stone. Not a single being is without it.
Just as water is in and around water animals, in the same way, this pure God is in and around all living beings.
However, this simile with water is not entirely appropriate, because there are dry places which exist apart from water, while it is not possible that anyone can ever go outside of God.
If one tries to run outside of the sky, it is not possible because the sky is always found in front of us. Similarly, there is no end to the endless God.
But even though it is only God that we meet continuously, it is inseparable from the body, and though it is what is closest to everyone, it is also hidden.
One exists within it but does not know it. One imagines to have understood it, but really the Absolute Reality cannot be understood." -- Dasbodh Chapter: 7,Sub-Chapter: 4

 

[A Freeman]

This doesn't mean anything because a Christian who defends the trinity to the bones will show up and say: "Yes and no. That's actually his one form out of 3 because God has 3 forms. Doh." xd
I guess people love to take out the context of the bible however they want.

100% of the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the Koran/Quran unambiguously supports that Father IS THE One and Only True God (the "I AM").

A handful of verses, when twisted out of context (with most or all of the key terms redefined), could be misunderstood to support the so-called trinity, but that requires ignoring HUNDREDS of other verses (the rest of Scripture really) which unambiguously teach us there is ONE God and He isn't role playing as three different individuals.

 

[Artful Revealer]

A. While it is understood (and thus not debated) that Christ is frequently referenced indirectly as the Word of God (as the Bible itself is referred to as the Word of God), IF what is stated above by @Artful Revealer is true, then he should be able to provide us with at least one verse that specifically states Jesus is the Word.

B. While it is understood (and thus not debated) that the Word OF God IS His Message of Truth in ALL of its forms, even John 1:1 states that in the Beginning WAS the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and that the Word WAS God.

The correct and only logical conclusion is that the word "word" means exactly what it says, i.e. that it is God's Message of Truth in ALL of its forms, which has always been with God, even before the beginning of time, before God created/made Prince Michael/Christ. A word is a means of conveying a message, and God's Message and doctrine is TRUTH.

John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Who or what dwelt among us as 'the Word made flesh'? And whom is John speaking of? Everyone knows the answer is Jesus.
It has to be Jesus, cause you and I both concur that Christ is spirit (ie. not flesh), therefore it was Christ (the only begotten of the Father) who was made flesh (received a body). That flesh is the Man Jesus, who became the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ and the man Jesus became one, which is something you yourself espouse with your human (Jesus) + spirit-being (Christ) theory.

And even if the Word is synonymous for God's Truth, did Jesus Christ not say:

John 14
6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

?

So even according to your own reasoning that the Word is Truth, you have to conclude that Jesus is God, for Jesus is the Truth, which is the Word, which is God.

It is completely and totally illogical to redefine the word "word", in a vain attempt to deceive others and to call Christ a liar. Christ NEVER claimed to be God, and HUNDREDS of Biblical verses bear that truth to this world.

Yet it is YOU who redefines the word 'WORD' through a lense that doesn't take into account the meaning of the original, which was Logos (Koine Gr.).

Logos is not synonymous with Word. The word Logos encompasses a much broader meaning including foundation, principle, logic, reason, speech, ... It's basically the order of the universe according to God's mind. If you're going to interpret this concept with the modern-day English "word", then it's no surprise at all that you fail to interpret the meaning correctly, or infer the proper conclusions.

1 Corinthians 8:6-7
8:6 But to us [there is only] ONE God, the Father, of Whom [are] all things, and we of Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
8:7 Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat [it] as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

More scripture to confirm my point. 1 Corinthians 8 says one God, the Father (the Father is added here to distinguish hypostases) and one Lord Jesus Christ.

First, is Lord (capital L) not a reference to God? If so, why would Jesus be called Lord (capital L) if He isn't God? Are there two Lords, and thus two Gods? I'm afraid that if you don't reconcile the fact that both the Father and the Son are God, that you're the one who is saying the scriptures contain polytheism.

Secondly, what is the significance of distinguishing between 'from whom are all things' and 'through whom are all things'? Would you not say that both apply to God? If the second does not apply to God, you are saying God is NOT through whom all things are. Is that something you would believe?

And what does it say in John 1:3 about he through whom all things are made?

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Scripture clearly says that all things are made through the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 8:6) and the Word (John 1:3) who is God (John 1:1).

Prime example of scripture from which trinitarian doctrines are inferred. And it's only one verse that YOU brought to the table to prove your own claim.

1 Timothy 2:3-5
2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the Knowledge of The Truth.
2:5 For [there is] ONE God, AND One mediator BETWEEN God and men, the Man Jesus Christ;

Again, scripture goes out of its way to state 'the MAN Jesus Christ'. That's the part that you should be highlighting.

It does not say 'one God and one Christ' like you think it does. It specifically refers to Jesus, the MAN, as to distinguish from the Lord Jesus Christ who is the MAN Jesus (the flesh / the human) + Christ (the Word / Son of God) in one hypostatic union.

 

[A Freeman]

John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Who or what dwelt among us as 'the Word made flesh'? And whom is John speaking of? Everyone knows the answer is Jesus.
It has to be Jesus, cause you and I both concur that Christ is spirit (ie. not flesh), therefore it was Christ (the only begotten of the Father) who was made flesh (received a body). That flesh is the Man Jesus, who became the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ and the man Jesus became one, which is something you yourself espouse with your human (Jesus) + spirit-being (Christ) theory.

And even if the Word is synonymous for God's Truth, did Jesus Christ not say:

John 14
6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

?

So even according to your own reasoning that the Word is Truth, you have to conclude that Jesus is God, for Jesus is the Truth, which is the Word, which is God.

Yet it is YOU who redefines the word 'WORD' through a lense that doesn't take into account the meaning of the original, which was Logos (Koine Gr.).

Logos is not synonymous with Word. The word Logos encompasses a much broader meaning including foundation, principle, logic, reason, speech, ... It's basically the order of the universe according to God's mind. If you're going to interpret this concept with the modern-day English "word", then it's no surprise at all that you fail to interpret the meaning correctly, or infer the proper conclusions.


More scripture to confirm my point. 1 Corinthians 8 says one God, the Father (the Father is added here to distinguish hypostases) and one Lord Jesus Christ.

First, is Lord (capital L) not a reference to God? If so, why would Jesus be called Lord (capital L) if He isn't God? Are there two Lords, and thus two Gods? I'm afraid that if you don't reconcile the fact that both the Father and the Son are God, that you're the one who is saying the scriptures contain polytheism.

Secondly, what is the significance of distinguishing between 'from whom are all things' and 'through whom are all things'? Would you not say that both apply to God? If the second does not apply to God, you are saying God is NOT through whom all things are. Is that something you would believe?

And what does it say in John 1:3 about he through whom all things are made?

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Scripture clearly says that all things are made through the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 8:6) and the Word (John 1:3) who is God (John 1:1).

Prime example of scripture from which trinitarian doctrines are inferred. And it's only one verse that YOU brought to the table to prove your own claim.

Again, scripture goes out of its way to state 'the MAN Jesus Christ'. That's the part that you should be highlighting.

It does not say 'one God and one Christ' like you think it does. It specifically refers to Jesus, the MAN, as to distinguish from the Lord Jesus Christ who is the MAN Jesus (the flesh / the human) + Christ (the Word / Son of God) in one hypostatic union.

The Written Word of God, SENT by God, says there is ONE God: Father.

Christ-Jesus, the Word of God SENT by God to be THE flesh and blood Example for us, says Father is THE One True God, and is also his (Christ's) God.

Anyone who tries to claim the Scripture says otherwise is very hypocritically calling both God and His Christ liars, and is so far into Satan's grip that there is no hope.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

 

[A Freeman]

Latin is a dead language, spoken by the spiritually "dead" in their satanic courts by scribes (attorneys), in their corporate fictional governments by pharisees (politicians) and in their satanic churches by their priests.

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the "Dead" (those under God's death sentence for treason - Rev. 12:7-9; Luke 9:55) bury their dead.

John 17:3 And THIS is Life Eternal, that they might KNOW Thee the ONLY True God, AND Christ the Saviour, whom Thou hast sent.

 

[A Freeman]

Regarding the use of the Greek word "logos" in the New Covenant, please see the following from: https://reflectingtheologian.com/logos-and-rhema/.

Occurrences of Logos and Rhema in the New Testament

Using Logos Bible Software, we know that the Greek word “logos” occurs in the New Testament a total of 330 times in 318 verses. It is impractical for the purpose of this post to list all the occurrences. Therefore, we will do a sampling of the verses. We can again turn back to John and see what we can glean from how John used the word. To add a little diversity, we will look at the Pauline usage of the word in Ephesians.


This will be the same approach for “rhema” as well. The word occurs 68 times in 65 verses. We will sample the verses in gospel of John and Ephesians to ascertain the biblical usage.

Occurrences of Logos and Rhema in Gospel of John

Below is a table on the occurrences of logos and rhema in the gospel of John.

Verse	Text	Greek Word
John 1:1	In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.	Logos
John 1:14	The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.	Logos
John 2:22	After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.	Logos
John 3:34	For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.	Rhema
John 4:37	Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true.	Logos
John 4:39	Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.”	Logos
John 4:41	And because of his words many more became believers.	Logos
John 4:50	“Go,” Jesus replied, “your son will live.” The man took Jesus at his word and departed.	Logos
John 5:24	“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.	Logos
John 5:38	nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.	Logos
John 5:47	But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?	Rhema
John 6:60	On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”	Logos
John 6:63	The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.	Rhema
John 6:68	Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life	Rhema
John 7:36	What did he mean when he said, ‘You will look for me, but you will not find me,’ and ‘Where I am, you cannot come’?”	Logos
John 7:40	On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.”	Logos
John 8:20	He spoke these words while teaching in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.	Rhema
John 8:31	To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.	Logos
John 8:37	I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word	Logos
John 8:43	Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say	Logos
John 8:47	Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”	Rhema
John 8:51	Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.	Logos
John 8:52	At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death.	Logos
John 8:55	Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.	Logos
John 10:19	The Jews who heard these words were again divided.	Logos
John 10:21	But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?	Rhema
John 10:35	If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside	Logos
John 12:38	This was to fulfill the wordof Isaiah the prophet: “Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”	Logos
John 12:47	“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.	Logos
John 12:48	There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.	First “words” = Rhema Second “words” = Logos
John 14:10	Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.	Rhema
John 14:23	Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.	Logos
John 15:3	You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.	Logos
John 15:7	If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.	Rhema
John 15:20	Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.	Logos
John 15:25	But this is to fulfil what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason	Logos
John 17:6	I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word	Logos
John 17:8	For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.	Rhema
John 17:14	I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world	Logos
John 17:17	Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth	Logos
John 17:20	“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message	Logos
John 18:9	This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.	Logos
John 18:32	This took place to fulfill what Jesus had said about the kind of death he was going to die	Logos
John 19:8	When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid	Logos
John 19:13	When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge’s seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha)	Logos
John 21:23	Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”	Logos

 

[A Freeman]

Occurrences of Logos and Rhema in Ephesians

Below is a table on the occurrences of logos and rhema in the gospel of John.

Verse	Text	Greek Word
Eph 1:13	And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit	Logos
Eph 4:29	Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.	Logos
Eph 5:6	Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.	Logos
Eph 5:26	to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word	Rhema
Eph 6:17	Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God	Rhema
Eph 6:19	Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel	Logos

Observations from the Word Study

Now that we have our data, we can make some observations about logos and rhema in the New Testament. Firstly, when we look at how the two NT authors used the word “logos,” they did use it in the context of spoken words. In John 7:40 and 8:51, for example, “logos” translates to “words” which Jesus spoke in those contexts. In fact, almost all the cases translate the word this way. However, there is the notable exception of John description of Jesus as the Logos.


Similarly, Paul did use “logos” to mean the same thing as well. Ephesians 4:29, 5:6 and 6:19 all translate “logos” to mean spoken words.

Secondly, we notice that in Ephesians, Paul used “rhema” in a peculiar way compared to John. In Ephesians, Paul used “rhema” as written word. In the two verses, the context suggests that Paul was referring to the Hebrew Scripture rather than words that God “speaks” to us. This is contrary to John’s usage of the word, where he always meant it to be words which Jesus spoke and taught.


Thirdly, when we bring the first two observations together, then we find that logos and rhema are almost always interchangeable. The classic usage is John 12:48. You have Jesus saying that there is a judge for the one who rejects his “words.” This is the Greek word “rhema.” But in the same breath, he emphasized that these are the very “words” he has spoken. This is the Greek word “logos.” And so we see that there is no differentiation between logos and rhema in these instances.

A simple conclusion

We will need to rethink how we quote logos and rhema. A simple sampling of the New Testament shows that the Scripture does not differentiate between them. Practically speaking, this means that it should not be the case when we deal with the word. When we read the Bible, we ought to take each word we read seriously as God’s spoken word. No doubt that there will be times when certain verses struck out to us but it may well be the Holy Spirit moving in our hearts and not because there is something special about the verse.

 

[A Freeman]

From the above study, it should be self-evident that it is completely and totally illogical to arbitrarily assign a different meaning to the word "word" (logos) in John 1:1, in a vain attempt to pretend that verse has some "trinitarian" meaning which contradicts the rest of the Bible, including Christ's own words (logos).

Further, and a testament to how deceitful and irrational this eisegesis really is, where is the alleged third member of the eternal co-existing "trinity" in John 1:1? IF the Holy Spirit was the alleged member of this 1+1+1=1 equation, then why doesn't John 1:1 tell us that this third individual was likewise there with God from the beginning?

 

[A Freeman]

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his [Christ's] glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The word "begotten" literally means to be brought into existence.

John 1:14 is therefore plainly telling us that Christ was CREATED by God (Father) IF it is correctly read and understood.

John 16:27-28
16:27 For the Father Himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out FROM God.
16:28 I came forth FROM The Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Was the Father always a father or not?

 

[lightseeker]

Logos
noun
Lo·gos ˈlō-ˌgäs
-ˌgōs

plural Logoi ˈlō-ˌgȯi
1
: the divine wisdom manifest in the creation, government, and redemption of the world and often identified with the second person of the Trinity [the implicit and explicit meaning of st.johns writing
2
: reason that in ancient Greek philosophy is the controlling principle in the universe [the context in which John was writing]

Was the Father always a father or not?

”no because the Logos was created”
”so the essence of God underwent a change in nature?”
*screetching*

 

[A Freeman]

Was the Father always a father or not?

God is the Self-Existing One; the "I AM".

When God created Michael, He became Father to His First-Created Son.

That is when time began. And when communication (the word) began. "In the beginning...".

Father then taught His Created Son Michael everything, i.e. how to do Father's Will (how to use His Creative Force for good), and they created the universe and everything and everyone in it together (including all of Michael's Brethren - the rest of the Angels).

As Father is The King Ruler of the Universe, Michael, being the firstborn, is the Prince, and heir to the Kingdom. The One Whom God Anointed (The Messiah/Christ). The One most like Father. "Who is LIKE God?" (Micha-El).

All of Scripture (the Word of God) bears witness to these facts.

 

[Artful Revealer]

So there was God who wasn't Father before He was Father? How do you reconcile a before and an after with an eternal being outside of Time?

 

[A Freeman]

So there was God who wasn't Father before He was Father?

Do you not understand that one is not called "Father" by His Children until after those Children are born?

How do you reconcile a before and an after with an eternal being outside of Time?

God has never changed and obviously lives outside of time, as He created time, which began when He created Michael. Similarly, God wasn't referred to by His Creation as The Creator (a descriptive name/title, like Father) until after He created those creatures.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.

How do you reconcile the Father creating Christ with Col 1:16 which says Christ created all things (in heaven & earth)? Christ cannot have created Himself and if the Father created Him, then Christ didn’t create all things.

This conundrum can only be solved by concluding that Christ is God.

Also:

John 17
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

“Before the foundation of the world” (= cosmos) the Father already loved the Son. This refers to a relationship before the creation of the universe, thus before time, thus eternal. This contradicts your claim that Time began when “Christ was created”.

The Father-Son relationship is eternal.