Church Rapture on 25 June 2021
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Red Sky at Morning
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I certainly believe in a catching away before the Tribulation @Karlysymon
Do you understand that those who believe in a literal fulfilment of Daniel’s 70th week distinguish between the idea of tribulation that all believers throughout history have been subject to (to varying degrees) and the Tribulation (capital T)?
The difference might be akin to floods and “the Flood”. Whilst there have been many catastrophic floods, there has only been one, one-time-only, Black Swan event Great Flood.
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Matthew 24 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
The above sounds like the events at the sixth seal in the book of Revelation. And that would make the first five seals... the tribulation of those days.
Lurking009
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When did movies and the beliefs of tptb become scriptural truth, though?
Red Sky at Morning
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I think a lot of movies “run interference” on a number of spiritual topics.
Take “wives, submit to your husbands” and get “the Handmaids Tale”
Have the “dead in Christ shall rise first” and get zombie apocalypse movies.
“Caught up to meet him in the air” - alien abduction / “beam me up, Scottie!”
Marvel inverts the Rapture in Endgame, so that the lucky ones are left behind and the unfortunates are taken.
The Leftovers have evil people taken along with the good, calling into doubt “Christian” interpretations of disappearances…
I could go on, but perhaps the worthwhile lesson I have learned from media portrayals of biblical ideas is that they seldom teach worthwhile lessons!!!
Red Sky at Morning
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I noticed that the video posted up at the start of this thread was by a YouTuber called “Barry Awe”
Looks like he hasn’t given up on the idea of an immanent pre-trib Rapture just yet!
Looks like he hasn’t given up on the idea of an immanent pre-trib Rapture just yet!
When they know whats coming...didn't someone in the wilderness quote scripture to Jesus? So they know scripture & know whats coming...still don't understand why they think they can win but thats another thread...
Exactly!
Lurking009
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This is similar to the arguments I've seen elsewhere on this forum which state the following -
"All media lies, therefore the opposite must always be true."
Only here it's -
"Hollywood inverts pre-trib rapture, therefore pre-trib rapture must be true."
It's a fallacious argument. Here's where I'm going -
- Hollywood, media, globalists, etc. can mistake a popular belief such as pre-trib rapture for scriptural truth - which is up for debate even amongst ourselves.
- The default conclusion, therefore, cannot be that movie makers/media know and interpret the Biblical truth correctly but are twisting and inverting it.
- The default conclusion should be that they are simply mimicking what they think they know and then running with their own spin on it. Some movies may be right, most are probably wrong on their interpretation in the first place before they even start twisting it.
In a nutshell: Non-Christian movies and media do not necessarily or automatically confirm Biblical truth. I have to seriously question this line of reasoning.
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Red Sky at Morning
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In truth, it reminds me of a roulette table - good gamblers tend to try to cover all the options in advance of what might come up!
You forget the one thing what makes a very good lie? That its almost entirely the truth just change a little bit is all...
And if i was the opposition i would cover all bases...your going to have a mass of people disappear one way or another so i guess you have to show that it be aliens or what ever...otherwise huge panic or the light bulb "hey wait a minute" goes off etc.
Lurking009
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Sure, but couldn't that apply to end times theology, as well? Here's how I look at it:
- God is preparing me to face and endure persecution. I don't expect to escape what others for centuries and even now are enduring for their faith. For me there is enough Biblical evidence to reject pre-trib rapture, but I understand we're not all going to agree.
- Let's say pre-trib rapture turns out to be true. I'll be going whether I believed in it or not since I'm saved by faith and not eschatological views.
- In either case I'm still saved by faith in Christ, so I would much rather be prepared than caught out unprepared and unready because I believed I would escape.
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Lurking009
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From your earlier comment:
So this argument would look like -
A. satan knows scripture and has some knowledge.
B. Hollywood follows satan and acknowledges pre-trib rapture [even if twisted].
C. Therefore pre-trib rapture must be true because... satan?
We could take this argument even further -
A. satan/demons know scripture and have some knowledge.
B. Occultists channel satan/demons.
B. Therefore we could glean information and divine the future by consulting occultists, we just have to 'untwist' what we learn.
I'm simply saying Hollywood does not prove pre-trib rapture is a Biblical truth, and it does not prove Hollywood has interpreted scripture correctly.
PS: Blessings to you and @Red Sky at Morning. I enjoy these discussions and theological challenges very much, so I just want you to know that.
ToxicFemininitySucks
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Here are some of my thoughts. I'm not trying to debate, and I don't have my mind made up either way. My husband and I debate this at least a few times a week.
- it's not a salvation issue, so in a way it is irrelevant. Putting it this way, the rapture is not the reason i am a Christian.
- Christians have been persecuted for their faith for the past 2 millenia, what makes our generation think we're more special/worthy to not face persecution?
- if the second coming is when Jesus actually sets foot on earth, if we are raptured it would not be an additional "coming", as we would meet him in the air.
- hollywood predictive programming may be just in case they think it may happen, covering all their bases so to speak. Doesn't mean they know it to be true for a fact, but they may be preparing people in case it turns out to be true and people vanish. I've also heard someone teach that we won't be gone without a trace but would actually leave our (corrupt) blood behind.
-while Darby and Scofield popularized dispensationalism and the pre trib rapture, there is evidence that these ideas, as well as an earthly millenium reign, were beliefs of early Christians, before the council of Nicaea silenced these and other views. While Scofield was funded by zionists, these men from the early centuries of Christianity would have no reason to lie.
-the references to the days of Noah and days of Lot are significant because of their differences. While Noah and his family were shut up in the ark 7 days before the rain began (Gen7:7-7:10), Lot and his family barely were pulled out by the angels at the last minute (Gen 19:22-24). I'm guessing it's too much for me to bring up the partial rapture theory?
- an interesting theory I've read is that while we will be present during the tribulation, we will not be affected by it if we follow God. He will provide for us. This would depend on the identity of the "woman" of Rev12. Is it the tribes of israel? Is it the church (having been grafted unto israel)?
I watched this video last May, the guy was predicting a june 15 2022 rapture based on it being the 15th of the 3rd Jewish month, and the number 153 being significant. Some interesting stuff regarding the numbers of the words in strongs concordance as well.
Obviously it didnt happen, and he has removed the video from being searchable, but i had the link saved. The actual night he predicted it happeneing he had a livestream countdown going on too.
- it's not a salvation issue, so in a way it is irrelevant. Putting it this way, the rapture is not the reason i am a Christian.
- Christians have been persecuted for their faith for the past 2 millenia, what makes our generation think we're more special/worthy to not face persecution?
- if the second coming is when Jesus actually sets foot on earth, if we are raptured it would not be an additional "coming", as we would meet him in the air.
- hollywood predictive programming may be just in case they think it may happen, covering all their bases so to speak. Doesn't mean they know it to be true for a fact, but they may be preparing people in case it turns out to be true and people vanish. I've also heard someone teach that we won't be gone without a trace but would actually leave our (corrupt) blood behind.
-while Darby and Scofield popularized dispensationalism and the pre trib rapture, there is evidence that these ideas, as well as an earthly millenium reign, were beliefs of early Christians, before the council of Nicaea silenced these and other views. While Scofield was funded by zionists, these men from the early centuries of Christianity would have no reason to lie.
-the references to the days of Noah and days of Lot are significant because of their differences. While Noah and his family were shut up in the ark 7 days before the rain began (Gen7:7-7:10), Lot and his family barely were pulled out by the angels at the last minute (Gen 19:22-24). I'm guessing it's too much for me to bring up the partial rapture theory?
- an interesting theory I've read is that while we will be present during the tribulation, we will not be affected by it if we follow God. He will provide for us. This would depend on the identity of the "woman" of Rev12. Is it the tribes of israel? Is it the church (having been grafted unto israel)?
I watched this video last May, the guy was predicting a june 15 2022 rapture based on it being the 15th of the 3rd Jewish month, and the number 153 being significant. Some interesting stuff regarding the numbers of the words in strongs concordance as well.
Obviously it didnt happen, and he has removed the video from being searchable, but i had the link saved. The actual night he predicted it happeneing he had a livestream countdown going on too.
Red Sky at Morning
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The thing is, we are not that far apart on this one. My research leads me to a pre-trib position but there are people I love greatly who presently don’t believe and my preference would be to go through tribulation with them and be able to share the Gospel and warn them over the things that were unfolding.
If the Antichrist were to appear on the scene and confirm a 7 year covenant, I would know that the 70th week had begun. As a family we are prepped in a “pay it forward” way, but if we need what we have laid up, so be it.
I always admired the faith of Stephen and if I leave this world with reviling and execution for my faith in Jesus, I know where I will be right after.
In short, whilst I may take a different position, I certainly respect the spirit behind yours @Lurking009
Red Sky at Morning
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The thing with all date setting is that prophecy only tends to come into clear view in the rear view mirror!
In the light of this, it is and intriguing study to look at possible likely dates and convergences. Just because a particular line of logic can lead someone to get excited about a particular date doesn’t mean it’s one God will use. On the other hand, as with many dates of significance in the Bible, the intriguing possibility remains that at least some idea might have been given through careful study of prophetic passages.
Wedding imagery is often included in passages that refer to the return of the Lord for His Bride. I watched an exposition on the 1st Century Jewish wedding typology a while back…
The idea that a bride might speculate [a lot] about rumours her betrothed future husband is coming soon to whisk her away to the new home he has prepared for her seems very much in keeping with what I know of girls!!
I think God created the mystery of marriage and even created the sexes precisely the way they are for reasons that go far beyond mere biology!
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A Freeman
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Christ provided His Disciples with detailed information about the end-times that we are living in NOW, and told them that He would see them AGAIN during those end-times, at which time He would speak to them plainly about Father (Rev. 10:7-10).
Matthew 24:3, 20-22
24:3 And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] THE SIGN OF THY COMING*, AND THE END OF THE WORLD?
24:20 But pray YE that YOUR flight be not in the Winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
24:21 For THEN* shall be great oppression, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
24:22 And except THOSE DAYS* should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the Elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
John 16:22-33
16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see YOU again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your Joy no man taketh from you.
16:23 And in THAT DAY* ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, He will give [it] YOU (if you are doing His Will).
16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your Joy may be full.
16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: BUT THE TIME COMETH*, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father.
16:26 At THAT DAY* ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
16:27 For the Father Himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
16:31 Jesus answered them, DO ye now believe?
16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that YE shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
16:33 These things I have spoken unto YOU, that in me YE might have peace. In the world YE SHALL HAVE TRIBULATION*: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
*All of these are references to Christ's Second Coming right before the end of the world, in a new body (from Joseph-Ephraim -- Gen. 49:10, 22-24) and a NEW NAME (Rev. 2:17, 3:12, 19:12). And in all of them Christ makes it crystal clear that HIS DISCIPLES WILL BE HERE DURING THE END-TIMES AND THAT THEY WILL EXPERIENCE THE TRIBULATION, WHICH IS THE GREATEST OPPRESSION MANKIND HAS EVER SEEN.
So if Christ's Disciples will be experiencing the great oppression/tribulation, what exactly makes "Christians" believe they are better than Christ's Disciples, and thus will be spared the trials and tests that can only be experienced IN this end-time tribulation? Arrogance perhaps?
The "pre-trib rapture" is a Christian MYTH, created by spiritually-blind individuals who know absolutely NOTHING about the Scriptures, or they would be deathly afraid to be teaching others such LIES.
WE ARE ALL CURRENTLY IN THE GREATEST OPPRESSION/TRIBULATION THERE HAS EVER BEEN, AND HAVE BEEN FOR YEARS. And it will only worsen from this point onward, until the end.
9/11, which was a watershed event for the entire world, happened almost 21 years ago (in 4 days it will be 21 years). That began what has been repeatedly referred to as "the endless war", which WILL end very abruptly, when it becomes indisputable to everyone that, left to our own devices, we would completely annihilate all life on Earth.
We just experienced a virtually global, forced house arrest under the guise of a FAKE threat, perpetrated by the corporate fictional governments that are supposed to be our servants rather than our tyrranical public masters. How much more obvious does it need to be made for people to finally "see" the oppression?
The war that is presently going on in Ukraine WILL eventually escalate into an all out shooting war between the East and the West, exactly as planned. Billions are about to die, just as millions already have from the lethal injection that many foolishly accepted.
If you were hoping for some mythical pre-trib rapture, you've already missed the ship long ago. If you're hoping for some mid-trib rapture, we're well beyond that too. Instead of spending all of this time arguing over obvious lies while the most obvious oppression of all time is going on all around you, why not spend every waking moment you have left thinking about how to change your own selfish, evil ways, and then putting those thoughts into action by actually following Christ's Example?
Christ didn't and never will run away from His Responsibilities. And neither will any of His True Disciples and Followers, nor is that really an option anyway. We will ALL face Judgment Day, exactly as we've been repeatedly told throughout Scriptures.
Matthew 24:3, 20-22
24:3 And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] THE SIGN OF THY COMING*, AND THE END OF THE WORLD?
24:20 But pray YE that YOUR flight be not in the Winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
24:21 For THEN* shall be great oppression, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
24:22 And except THOSE DAYS* should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the Elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
John 16:22-33
16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see YOU again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your Joy no man taketh from you.
16:23 And in THAT DAY* ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, He will give [it] YOU (if you are doing His Will).
16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your Joy may be full.
16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: BUT THE TIME COMETH*, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father.
16:26 At THAT DAY* ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
16:27 For the Father Himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
16:31 Jesus answered them, DO ye now believe?
16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that YE shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
16:33 These things I have spoken unto YOU, that in me YE might have peace. In the world YE SHALL HAVE TRIBULATION*: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
*All of these are references to Christ's Second Coming right before the end of the world, in a new body (from Joseph-Ephraim -- Gen. 49:10, 22-24) and a NEW NAME (Rev. 2:17, 3:12, 19:12). And in all of them Christ makes it crystal clear that HIS DISCIPLES WILL BE HERE DURING THE END-TIMES AND THAT THEY WILL EXPERIENCE THE TRIBULATION, WHICH IS THE GREATEST OPPRESSION MANKIND HAS EVER SEEN.
So if Christ's Disciples will be experiencing the great oppression/tribulation, what exactly makes "Christians" believe they are better than Christ's Disciples, and thus will be spared the trials and tests that can only be experienced IN this end-time tribulation? Arrogance perhaps?
The "pre-trib rapture" is a Christian MYTH, created by spiritually-blind individuals who know absolutely NOTHING about the Scriptures, or they would be deathly afraid to be teaching others such LIES.
WE ARE ALL CURRENTLY IN THE GREATEST OPPRESSION/TRIBULATION THERE HAS EVER BEEN, AND HAVE BEEN FOR YEARS. And it will only worsen from this point onward, until the end.
9/11, which was a watershed event for the entire world, happened almost 21 years ago (in 4 days it will be 21 years). That began what has been repeatedly referred to as "the endless war", which WILL end very abruptly, when it becomes indisputable to everyone that, left to our own devices, we would completely annihilate all life on Earth.
We just experienced a virtually global, forced house arrest under the guise of a FAKE threat, perpetrated by the corporate fictional governments that are supposed to be our servants rather than our tyrranical public masters. How much more obvious does it need to be made for people to finally "see" the oppression?
The war that is presently going on in Ukraine WILL eventually escalate into an all out shooting war between the East and the West, exactly as planned. Billions are about to die, just as millions already have from the lethal injection that many foolishly accepted.
If you were hoping for some mythical pre-trib rapture, you've already missed the ship long ago. If you're hoping for some mid-trib rapture, we're well beyond that too. Instead of spending all of this time arguing over obvious lies while the most obvious oppression of all time is going on all around you, why not spend every waking moment you have left thinking about how to change your own selfish, evil ways, and then putting those thoughts into action by actually following Christ's Example?
Christ didn't and never will run away from His Responsibilities. And neither will any of His True Disciples and Followers, nor is that really an option anyway. We will ALL face Judgment Day, exactly as we've been repeatedly told throughout Scriptures.
Karlysymon
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Thanks for the responses guys. I just want to say that if there is one lesson to take away from the whole Covid game, it's that having an accurate or near-accurate view of the future has a bearing on the decisions we make in the present.
I don't believe many people would have taken the vaxx or made a fatal decision if they hadn't been bullied and lied to about the future: Take the vaxx and normal will return!...even though normal wasn't scheduled to return.
I said we needed an honest conversation about all this because there are difficult times ahead. Everyone knows it. So while our eschatological views aren't a salvational issue, they nevertheless will have a bearing on how we will react to the challenges and difficult times ahead...the beginning throes of which we are in now...as well as having a profound effect on our eternal interests. Will people abandon the faith because times are hard and God hasn't saved them out said troubles? Sure. Iam not naive about the prospect.
Even at the time of the ascension (Acts 1:6-9), the 12 disciples still held misconceptions about what we now call the Second Coming. The point iam trying to make is that the beliefs of early Christians shouldn't be taken as absolute truth. So what if the Rapture doesn't happen even though they supposedly believed it? While the early Christians would have no reason to lie, they had their biases too! We are blessed to have both Testaments...the gold standard against which all doctrine and belief is tested. We are also lucky to have the benefit of retrospect.
I don't believe many people would have taken the vaxx or made a fatal decision if they hadn't been bullied and lied to about the future: Take the vaxx and normal will return!...even though normal wasn't scheduled to return.
Anyone, in 2022 who still hasn't read this MIT article should look it up and read it
I said we needed an honest conversation about all this because there are difficult times ahead. Everyone knows it. So while our eschatological views aren't a salvational issue, they nevertheless will have a bearing on how we will react to the challenges and difficult times ahead...the beginning throes of which we are in now...as well as having a profound effect on our eternal interests. Will people abandon the faith because times are hard and God hasn't saved them out said troubles? Sure. Iam not naive about the prospect.
Inaccurate/biased beliefs about the Saviour's advents (both of them) have had profound consequences. Israel's elders had misconceptions about Christ's (first) coming, which misconceptions they taught the nation as truth. The result was rejecting Christ and crucifying Him....to say nothing of the abandonment of the 12 (Matt 26:56).
Even at the time of the ascension (Acts 1:6-9), the 12 disciples still held misconceptions about what we now call the Second Coming. The point iam trying to make is that the beliefs of early Christians shouldn't be taken as absolute truth. So what if the Rapture doesn't happen even though they supposedly believed it? While the early Christians would have no reason to lie, they had their biases too! We are blessed to have both Testaments...the gold standard against which all doctrine and belief is tested. We are also lucky to have the benefit of retrospect.
Karlysymon
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This was my intended query when i bumped the thread, but i decided to shelve it. Since you brought up Darby & Scofield, i will post it aswell.
Since the Covid game began, many people have said that the plans set into effect have been rooted in 1800s groups, institutions and the lone individual from that era. That isn't to say that something like Transhumanism is a 200yr old idea, because that wouldn't be accurate. There is nothing new under the sun and every epoch has had it's own version of insanity. The TPTB have been open about their plans in their publications and the obvious trick played along the way was to put people to sleep and keep them ignorant or distracted about those plans.
If that happened, from a secular point of view, shouldn't we question how TPTB (the very people who would have funded Darby & Scofield) have also successfully lulled the Christian body into sleep and to also espouse comfy (non-biblical) beliefs or misconceptions?
The Untold Story of Christian Zionism's Rise to Power in the United States
Even before Israel existed, Christian Zionists in the United States were influencing policy in service to an obsession end times prophecy
www.mintpressnews.com
Signatories of the Blackstone Memorial included J.D. Rockefeller, the country’s first billionaire; J.P. Morgan, the wealthy banker; William McKinley, future president of the United States; Thomas Brackett Reed, then speaker of the House; Melville Fuller, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court; the mayors of New York City, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Boston and Chicago; the editors of the Boston Globe, New York Times, Washington Post, and Chicago Tribune, among others; and numerous other members of Congress, as well as influential businessmen and clergymen. Though some rabbis were included as signatories, the petition’s content was opposed by most American Jewish communities. In other words, the primary goal of Zionism, before it even became a movement, was widely supported by the American Christian elite, but opposed by American Jews.
The Blackstone Memorial would later attract the attention of Louis Brandeis, one of the most prominent American Jewish Zionists, who would later refer to Blackstone as the real “founding father of Zionism,” according to Brandeis’ close friend Nathan Straus. Brandeis would eventually succeed in convincing an elderly Blackstone to petition then-President Woodrow Wilson with a second Blackstone Memorial in 1916 that was presented in private to Wilson nearly a year later.
Instead of gathering signatures from prominent members of America’s elite class, Blackstone this time focused on shoring up support from Protestant organizations, namely the Presbyterian Church, in keeping with Wilson’s Presbyterian faith. According to historian Jerry Klinger, president of the Jewish American Society for Historic Preservation, this change in focus had been Brandeis’, not Blackstone’s, idea.
Scofield’s membership in this exclusive club — as well as the club’s patronage of his activities, which granted him lodging and financing to produce what would become the Scofield Reference Bible — has been the subject of considerable speculation. Indeed, many have noted that the presence of a fundamentalist, dispensationalist small-town preacher with a disgraced political past in a club stuffed with some of the country’s most elite academics, writers and robber barons just doesn’t add up.
Joseph M. Canfield, in his book The Incredible Scofield and his Book, asserted that “the admission of Scofield to the Lotus Club, which could not have been sought by Scofield, strengthens the suspicion that has cropped up before, that someone was directing the career of C.I. Scofield.”
Canfield puts forth the theory in his book that the person “directing” Scofield’s career was connected to New York lawyer and Zionist activist Samuel Untermeyer, who was on the club’s executive committee and was a close associate of Louis Brandeis and influential in the administration of Woodrow Wilson. He then notes that Scofield’s annotated bible was later “most helpful in getting Fundamentalist Christians to back the international interest in one of Untermeyer’s pet projects — the Zionist Movement.”
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ToxicFemininitySucks
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So true!
Very interesting, thank you for sharing. Have you watched the full length version?