Church Rapture on 25 June 2021

[Red Sky at Morning]

Very interesting, thank you for sharing. Have you watched the full length version?

I have - it was excellent!!!!

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

The point iam trying to make is that the beliefs of early Christians shouldn't be taken as absolute truth. So what if the Rapture doesn't happen even though they supposedly believed it? While the early Christians would have no reason to lie, they had their biases too! We are blessed to have both Testaments...the gold standard against which all doctrine and belief is tested.

I completely agree.
Mostly what i was saying is that it is not factually correct that Darby invented the rapture out of thin air, nor that Scofield invented dispensationalism. As a new convert I heard this repeated so imagine my surprise when I found out this was not the case.

Same as the claims that ideas known as "protestant" originated with Luther. Nope, it was just the first time that the suppression efforts failed.

Now, were there "special interests" driving any of these ideas, from all sides? I'm sure. But I do believe God is in control, and whatever situation that comes up He can use it.

Also, regarding the doctrine of the rapture specifically, I do find myself testing it against scripture, and so far I have not made a determination. Studying the Bible is a lifelong pursuit. Of course I feel for anyone who loses the faith if it turns out there is no rapture, but is the rapture really the only reason for someone to believe in our Lord?

Since the Covid game began, many people have said that the plans set into effect have been rooted in 1800s groups, institutions and the lone individual from that era.

In my opinion, since long before the 1800s.

If that happened, from a secular point of view, shouldn't we question how TPTB (the very people who would have funded Darby & Scofield) have also successfully lulled the Christian body into sleep and to also espouse comfy (non-biblical) beliefs or misconceptions?

Yes, we definitely should.
I hope my previous post didn't come across as an endorsement of Darby and Scofield. That was not how I meant it AT ALL.

I do have a distrust of them in particular, and do question who is funding the people saying anything rather than take what they say at face value automatically. But as I mentioned, saying that these men invented these ideas is not accurate, and I have seen that statement used as a way to steer people into catholicism.

 

[Seekeroftruth55]

Hmm interesting topic.
The idea of the rapture doesn't always seem so accurate to me. If it was true, Christians would of been taken up by now. Considering everything that's happened in the last two years or so, it's been hell pretty well on earth and it will only get worse. To me, this all looks like the end times and the coming apocalypse.
The other reason why I don't believe in the rapture is that some of us will be needed on earth to help others out through the horrible tribulations and end times. We have destinies that we need to fulfill to help protect them. It just doesn't seem right that we would suddenly find out the truth to what's happening in the world to just get raptured up, suddenly.
Sorry if this seems off to some people, some may not believe this, but it just doesn't seem likely.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

…I feel for anyone who loses the faith if it turns out there is no rapture, but is the rapture really the only reason for someone to believe in our Lord?

I find that most people who believe in a pre-trib rapture believe that all true Christians who are born again will go (along with those under the age of accountability).

For those holding a pre-wrath / mid-trib or post trib position, real Christians will be the overcomes who endure to the end. The idea appears to be that a belief in the Rapture will lead many who take a pre-trib view to fall away as they didn’t have the required spiritual toughness to endure the wrath of Satan on the earth.

 

[Awoken2]

For those holding a pre-wrath / mid-trib or post trib position, real Christians will be the overcomes who endure to the end.

Hmmmm interesting.

What about the people who's position is leaning more post-wrath/pre trib or mid trib-wrath?

....asking for a friend.

 

[Seekeroftruth55]

I find that most people who believe in a pre-trib rapture believe that all true Christians who are born again will go (along with those under the age of accountability).

For those holding a pre-wrath / mid-trib or post trib position, real Christians will be the overcomes who endure to the end. The idea appears to be that a belief in the Rapture will lead many who take a pre-trib view to fall away as they didn’t have the required spiritual toughness to endure the wrath of Satan on the earth.

Couldn't agree more, we are preparing for something, so, it's definitely not random.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

find that most people who believe in a pre-trib rapture believe that all true Christians who are born again will go (along with those under the age of accountability).

That is true. I've noticed some pre-tribbers act almost offended if anyone questions the rapture. Just yesterday I watched a video where the pastor said something like "if you think you're going to be around for the tribulation, are you SURE you're a Christian?"

It rubbed me the wrong way to be honest. Being a Christian requires faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, not blind obedience to the teachings of men. I can see how there could be a rapture, but if it was 100% certain clear cut we would not be debating it.

For those holding a pre-wrath / mid-trib or post trib position, real Christians will be the overcomes who endure to the end. The idea appears to be that a belief in the Rapture will lead many who take a pre-trib view to fall away as they didn’t have the required spiritual toughness to endure the wrath of Satan on the earth

Yes, that's what my husband has said, which worries me if he thinks he doesn't have the spiritual toughness and that's why he is just a bit more pre-trib than me.

But whenever I think of the persecutions that early Christians had to endure I just can't see how our especially wicked and degenerate generation would not have to endure what they did. Unless it is about trying to be righteous in an especially unrighteous culture. Both Noah and Lot were taken out of situations like that, though as I mentioned earlier there is a distinction between their two scenarios. And I was thinking of the warning given to remmber Lot's wife.

It sounds like I'm leaning to the partial theory, the firstfruits went with Jesus, then the harvest (pre trib rapture), then the gleanings (post trib). But I really don't know for sure at this point, I'll just continue to study.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Hmmmm interesting.

What about the people who's position is leaning more post-wrath/pre trib or mid trib-wrath?

....asking for a friend.

I know - too much jargon!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

An excellent piece by David Daniels of end times topics - a history of the development of eschatology from preterism, historicism, symbolism, futurism and more…

 

[phipps]

Are the elect raptured before the tribulation according to the Bible?

The word "tribulation" means "time of trouble" biblically. The Bible uses both those terms to mean the same thing. For example in the KJV Daniel 12:1 says, "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Yet Matthew 24:21 says, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." These two verses are talking about the same period of time just prior to Christ’s second advent but have used both tribulation and time of trouble to show just how serious this crisis will be.

As we discuss the great tribulation to take place just before Jesus returns, keep in mind that there have been several other "times of trouble" for God's people in the past.

- The children of Israel endured 400 years of tribulation just before the Exodus (Acts 7:6).

- When the Israelites were captive in Egypt, God preserved them in the midst of the plagues that devastated Egypt. Just as Israel was delivered from Egyptian bondage after the plagues, so God's church will be protected through the plagues and be delivered from the hand of the oppressor (1 Corinthians 10:11; Psalm 91; Psalm 46).

- Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego entered the flames when they refused to yield to the universal death decree of Babylon's King. Their death-defying faith forced them to face the flames of tribulation, and in those flames God miraculously delivered them (Daniel 3:16-28).

- Daniel’s decision to be faithful in his daily prayers caused him to be tossed into the lion’s den. God saved Daniel while he was going through tribulation, not before it came (Daniel 6).

- The early Christians also passed through a time of trouble immediately after the stoning of Stephen (Acts 8:1). God's people suffered a 10-year period of tribulation.

- The most notable time of trouble was the 1,260 years of intense persecution waged against true Christians during the Dark Ages. "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and threescore days." "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman" (Revelation 12:6, 13).

As dark as each of these times were for God's people, none can compare with the final, great tribulation that is yet to take place. The great tribulation corresponds with the time during which the seven last plagues of Revelation chapter 16 will fall. "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God" (Revelation 15:1).

God's wrath will be directed against the ones who disobey His law, distort His truth, and oppress His people, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18).

The great tribulation also coincides with the Battle of Armageddon. Both take place immediately before Christ's second coming, "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

This will be a short period of time. Here are a few Scriptures that show it will be a short period of time. Revelation 18:8 tells us, "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day." A "day" in Bible prophecy represents one literal year (Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34, Luke 13:32). So when Revelation says that "her plagues come in one day," it means within, or less than, one year's time. The very nature of the seven last plagues-the rivers and seas turning to blood and the planet being scorched with great heat-would render it impossible for the human race to survive more than a month or two. This is why Jesus said, "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened" (Matthew 24:22).

If the “elect,” or God’s people, are raptured before “the great tribulation,” why would they need the days “shortened?” All throughout the Bible (as shown above), we are given examples of God’s people being saved in the middle of tribulations, not being saved before it.

Similarly, right before Christ returns, the faithfulness of the elect will cause them to be the target of the ungodly, bringing about a time of persecution and great tribulation.

The main reason this time will be so intense is because it will come after probation closes for the lost. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book" (Daniel 12:1). Notice that when the tribulation begins, the cases of all people have been forever decided.

The door of salvation and grace will close for the world-just as the door on the ark closed seven days before the Flood began. At that time Jesus will declare, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:11-12).

For the first time in the world's history, God's Spirit will be completely withdrawn from the lost. The unsaved will be given wholly over to demonic control. The saved will be sealed and the lost forever lost. No more changing teams!

However, just as throughout all of Biblical history, God preserves His elect. The same Jesus that was with the Hebrew men in the fire and lion’s den, will go with us through our trials. When the last day judgments are poured out on the world, God will shield those who follow Him with all their heart and mind.

 

[phipps]

But whenever I think of the persecutions that early Christians had to endure I just can't see how our especially wicked and degenerate generation would not have to endure what they did. Unless it is about trying to be righteous in an especially unrighteous culture. Both Noah and Lot were taken out of situations like that, though as I mentioned earlier there is a distinction between their two scenarios. And I was thinking of the warning given to remmber Lot's wife.

It sounds like I'm leaning to the partial theory, the firstfruits went with Jesus, then the harvest (pre trib rapture), then the gleanings (post trib). But I really don't know for sure at this point, I'll just continue to study.

Many Christians believe that the righteous will all be raptured out of the world just before the time of trouble and that the wicked will be left behind to endure seven years of tribulation. Because it sounds appealing, this doctrine has gained widespread acceptance. But the fact remains that the Bible clearly teaches otherwise.

Here are but a few of the many Scriptures which teach that God's end-time people will go through the tribulation:

The Bible describes the 144,000 as "they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14).

In His great prophetic discourse on the mount of Olives, Jesus made the following statement immediately after mentioning the tribulation: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 24:22). If the elect were not in the world during the great tribulation, they would not need the days to be shortened!

All throughout Scripture we see examples of the Lord saving His people through tribulation, not from it.

Noah was not saved from the Flood, but through it.

Daniel was not saved from the lions' den, but through it.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego were not saved from the fiery furnace, but through it. In fact, Jesus went through it with them, and He will go through the great tribulation with us as well!

The children of Israel were not saved from Egypt before the plagues fell, but afterward. God demonstrated His love and power by preserving them in Egypt through the ten plagues. In the same way, the righteous will be in the world when the seven last plagues fall (Revelation 16), but God will preserve them.

God never promises that our lives will always be easy. Christ prayed to His Father for His disciples, "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one" (John 17:15). Likewise, in 2 Timothy 3:12 Paul states, "Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution." Paul also told a group of disciples that "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

Although God does not always provide an escape from tribulation, He does promise to give us the power and strength to get through it. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13).

In His parable of the two home builders, Jesus taught that the storm comes to the wise man who builds on the rock just like surely as it comes to the fool who builds upon the sand (Matthew 7:24-27). The storm will come to all.

We have no need to fear though. In John 16:33, Jesus said, "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

God does not want us to live by fear, but rather by faith. "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love" (1 John 4:18).

During the world's darkest hour and greatest trial, God will supply the greatest peace and faith. We need only to remember that Jesus is in the boat with us. Though the furnace be heated seven times over, we can pass safely through it if Jesus is at our side.

 

[Lurking009]

The thing with all date setting is that prophecy only tends to come into clear view in the rear view mirror!

I just want to hit on this one point -

1. If a person wants to speculate on a particular date in a "What if..." discussion scenario, sure, discuss away. It should be made clear it's speculative only.

2. If a person claims a date or 'truth' they received is from God through word, dream, or vision - "The Lord told/led/showed me..." - at that point the person is claiming to speak for God as a prophet. Doesn't matter whether they call themselves a prophet or not, they have put themselves in that position by default. Their prophecy had better be 100% correct or there will be serious consequences according to the Bible. Date setting allegedly "from the Lord" is not to be taken lightly and there's no room for error.

Christianity: True vs. False Prophets

In these times of dangerous false prophets and teachers, it seems good to review what constitutes a false prophet according to the Bible... kind of a heads-up. This topic is specifically within the realm of Christianity, the Holy Bible, and those claiming to be Christian prophets. First things...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

 

[Maldarker]

From your earlier comment:




So this argument would look like -

A. satan knows scripture and has some knowledge.
B. Hollywood follows satan and acknowledges pre-trib rapture [even if twisted].
C. Therefore pre-trib rapture must be true because... satan?

We could take this argument even further -

A. satan/demons know scripture and have some knowledge.
B. Occultists channel satan/demons.
B. Therefore we could glean information and divine the future by consulting occultists, we just have to 'untwist' what we learn.

I'm simply saying Hollywood does not prove pre-trib rapture is a Biblical truth, and it does not prove Hollywood has interpreted scripture correctly.

PS: Blessings to you and @Red Sky at Morning. I enjoy these discussions and theological challenges very much, so I just want you to know that.

I'm with you idk if pre or mid or what ever which doesn't matter best quote prepare for the worst hope for the best. Lots points to both mid & pre so yeah idk. ( i have a personal reason why i believe its mid but thats a gut feel)

This statement not sure of, kind of think of it like strategic command trying to figure out what is going to happen GOD said its going to happen they believe it will, dont see why you would need an occult to ask future so idk about this or if they do i don't practice occultic things.

B. Therefore we could glean information and divine the future by consulting occultists, we just have to 'untwist' what we learn.

 

[Lurking009]

This statement not sure of, kind of think of it like strategic command trying to figure out what is going to happen GOD said its going to happen they believe it will, dont see why you would need an occult to ask future so idk about this or if they do i don't practice occultic things.

B. Therefore we could glean information and divine the future by consulting occultists, we just have to 'untwist' what we learn.

I was simply taking your initial argument further to show what I view as a major flaw. In other words, if looking to movies for proof of truth is ok... then why not occultists? Slippery slope.

The point was that searching for proof of truth apart from God, such as through movies and occultists, is a questionable line of reasoning.

 

[Karlysymon]

Yes, that's what my husband has said, which worries me if he thinks he doesn't have the spiritual toughness and that's why he is just a bit more pre-trib than me.

But whenever I think of the persecutions that early Christians had to endure I just can't see how our especially wicked and degenerate generation would not have to endure what they did.

Iam alittle pessimistic though. The people who took the vaxx and are now dead or maimed, many of them are or were Christians. They did it to keep their homes and jobs (excluding the elderly and underage). Atleast for me, i have to accept that we are going to see this sad affair repeat itself. The psychological manipulation deployed for the covid game is obviously going to be wielded for the nwo religious endgame.

The below-50 Generations have been so softened that should the beheadings described in Revelations get underway, many will take the easy way out regardless of the consequences. They will take the mark to keep their jobs and a roof over their head. In a general sense, we, today do not have the fortitude (in every aspect; mental, spiritual, physical etc) that generations of antiquity wielded. If people buckled over a syringe with gene-editing contents, are we to expect a better response if gladiatoral arenas with wild beasts were brought back? Come to think of it, the Running Man film had a similar theme.

Nevertheless, difficult situations always have the potential to shake up even the strongest of people. John the Baptist also had "a moment" while in prison (Matt 11:6) and Christ sent word of encouragement. Likewise, our Saviour left us word of encouragement and we can be confident that He'll be our strength on the long road ahead;
"This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus."
(Rev 14:12, 3:10, Luke 21:19, James 5:10-11 etc)

“When the testing time shall come, those who have made God's Word their rule of life will be revealed. In summer there is no noticeable difference between evergreens and other trees; but when the blasts of winter come, the evergreens remain unchanged, while other trees are stripped of their foliage. So the falsehearted professor may not now be distinguished from the real Christian, but the time is just upon us when the difference will be apparent. Let opposition arise, let bigotry and intolerance again bear sway, let persecution be kindled, and the half-hearted and hypocritical will waver and yield the faith; but the true Christian will stand firm as a rock, his faith stronger, his hope brighter, than in days of prosperity.”

I hope my previous post didn't come across as an endorsement of Darby and Scofield. That was not how I meant it AT ALL.

No, not really. My original train of thought and query reached into the 1800s and i decided to shelve it. So when you mentioned Darby & Scofield, i ran with it.

That is true. I've noticed some pre-tribbers act almost offended if anyone questions the rapture. Just yesterday I watched a video where the pastor said something like "if you think you're going to be around for the tribulation, are you SURE you're a Christian?"

Men of holy office shouldn't be saying these kinds of things. We already have a problem of prosperity gospel that teaches that christians aren't supposed to have any problems. All these statements do is make people question their faith when in dire straits.
And if the rapture doesn't happen, we'll have legitimate reason to question if he is a christian...afterall, that's the belief that he holds.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Iam alittle pessimistic though. The people who took the vaxx and are now dead or maimed, many of them are or were Christians. They did it to keep their homes and jobs (excluding the elderly and underage). Atleast for me, i have to accept that we are going to see this sad affair repeat itself.

This may be subtle but I know a good many Christians who judged that there was no connection between the MoTB and the jab.

There are “hills to die on” and taking the mark would be #1.

 

[Karlysymon]

This may be subtle but I know a good many Christians who judged that there was no connection between the MoTB and the jab.

There are “hills to die on” and taking the mark would be #1.

Please elaborate...iam alittle lost on the second statement.

 

[Lurking009]

That is true. I've noticed some pre-tribbers act almost offended if anyone questions the rapture. Just yesterday I watched a video where the pastor said something like "if you think you're going to be around for the tribulation, are you SURE you're a Christian?"

Wow. Questioning someone's salvation over rejection of pre-trib shows this 'pastor' does not understand the basic gospel and what constitutes salvation in the first place. Dead wrong.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Please elaborate...iam alittle lost on the second statement.

I don’t believe anyone will take the mark by accident. Certainly the jabs and the mask mandates were a rehearsal, but not acquiescence to the AC.

 

[Lurking009]

I don’t believe anyone will take the mark by accident. Certainly the jabs and the mask mandates were a rehearsal, but not acquiescence to the AC.

Same. The vaxx is not the mark, but a test run and glimpse of what's to come if not stopped.