Who Was Jesus?

[Mr. Blah]

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/what-kind-of-christian-sects-are-going-to-heaven.391/page-10#post-18842

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

 

[Mr. Blah]

Not just empty & vain exclamation.

He talked to Jesus, maybe by saying that while prostrating or seeing Him at His eyes while saying that words.

 

[grateful servant]

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

You don't need to bold and underline it - I know how you interpret it. Listen to an Ex-Christian youth minister explain:

 

[rainerann]

I am currently reading through the Ante-Nicene church fathers collection. It is really amazing how consistent the testimonies of so many are outside of the testimony from scripture.

I have an excerpt from "The First Apology of Justin" that I think is relevant to a discussion that Haich proposed we might be able to reach about Jesus being the Son of God. I appreciate this suggestion Haich and I would love to be able to reach a point like this. You are such a sweet person for considering this.

Quote from Justin Martyr's apology
"Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship HIm, having learned that He is the Son of the true God HImself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein."

This would be a consistent statement to what I see described in scripture. Justin explains that the mystery of this position of the Son of God is related to His birth by a virgin, which is agreed upon between Christians and Muslims. Jesus was born of a virgin, this is a mystery. Therefore, as difficult as it may be to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, this also may be a mystery to believe as true in the same way as we agree He was born of a virgin.

"The First Apology of Justin" is also confirmation that the Gospel that we have today were the same being circulated at the time because he quotes this more than any of the writers of the epistles. Justin Martyr is said to have lived between 100-165 so they must have already existed in some form.

He also confirms my theory that the mystery of lawlessness that is already at work from 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is centered around the Jews rejection of the Messiah. The mystery of lawlessness means is the presence of sin that is demonstrated by this rejection and threaded throughout the history since then and will be revealed when the prophecy is fulfilled. I also want to make clear that I am not saying that one race is worse than another. I am saying that the mystery of lawlessness is only demonstrated through the Jews. This serves as a lesson for all of us who are all capable of sin.

This mystery of lawlessness is also the first seal of Revelation or the rider on the white horse that is often considered the Antichrist in eschatology (Revelation 6:2). This mystery of lawlessness is the reason behind the corruption of any religion that includes Christ. There is corruption in the Christian church and Islam and this is because of the presence of Christ, and demonstrated by the rejection of Him by the Jews, in my opinion.

Here is the excerpt of what Justin Martyr has to say about the response of the Jews towards Christianity at the time.

"There were, then, among the Jews certain men who were prophets of God, through whom the prophetic Spirit published beforehand things that were to come to pass, ere ever they happened. And their prophecies, as they were spoken and when they were uttered, the kings who happened to be reigning among the Jews at the several times carefully preserved in their possession, when they had been arranged in books by the prophets themselves in their own Hebrew language. And when Ptolemy king of Egypt formed a library, and endeavoured to collect the writings of all men, he heard also of these prophets, and sent to Herod, who was at that time king of the Jews, requesting that the books of the prophets be sent to him. And Herod the king did indeed send them, written, as they were, in the foresaid Hebrew language. And when their contents were found to be unintelligible to the Egyptians, he again sent and requested that men be commissioned to translate them into the Greek language. And when this was done, the books remained with the Egyptians, where they are until now. They are also in the possession of all Jews throughout the world; but they, though they read, do not understand what is said, but count us foes and enemies; and, like yourselves, they kill and punish us whenever they have the power, as you can well believe. For in the Jewish war which lately raged, Barchochebas, the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be led to cruel punishments, unless they would deny Jesus Christ and utter blasphemy. In these books, then, of the prophets we found Jesus our Christ foretold as coming, born of a virgin, growing up to man’s estate, and healing every disease and every sickness, and raising the dead, and being hated, and unrecognised, and crucified, and dying, and rising again, and ascending into heaven, and being, and being called, the Son of God. We find it also predicted that certain persons should be sent by Him into every nation to publish these things, and that rather among the Gentiles [than among the Jews] men should believe on Him. And He was predicted before He appeared, first 5000 years before, and again 3000, then 2000, then 1000, and yet again 800; for in the succession of generations prophets after prophets arose."

So what he is saying here is that the Septuagint was created so the Egyptians could read the words of the prophets. Then, we can see that when Jews were able to, they would cause Christians to be persecuted, unless they denied that Jesus was the Son of God.

Since it has clearly been impossible to do this, other corruptions to the message of Christ have been introduced like Jesus being on either side of these two extremes: Being God or being a prophet. Either way is a denial of Him being the Son of God.

 

[grateful servant]

Since it has clearly been impossible to do this, other corruptions to the message of Christ have been introduced like Jesus being on either side of these two extremes: Being God or being a prophet. Either way is a denial of Him being the Son of God.

Islam is the moderate religion which enjoins us to follow the middle and straight path in all matters. With regards to the status of Jesus, Christians and Jews have two opposing and extreme views of him: Christians elevate him to God and son of God, Jews slander him and call him the child of a fornicator - the Muslims speak the truth about him and say that he is God's honorable and pure Messenger.

 

[Todd]

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

and at the end of that same chapter....
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
It says I need to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God to have life, not that I have to believe he is God.
So whether Thomas was right or not, I don't have to accept Jesus is God to believe and have life. I only need to believe he is the Christ, the son of God.

 

[rainerann]

Islam is the moderate religion which enjoins us to follow the middle and straight path in all matters. With regards to the status of Jesus, Christians and Jews have two opposing and extreme views of him: Christians elevate him to God and son of God, Jews slander him and call him the child of a fornicator - the Muslims speak the truth about him and say that he is God's honorable and pure Messenger.

Except islam denies the crucifixion which was the universal contemporary account of what happened to Christ. 600 years later whoever was responsible for changing the gospel into the form we know as the Qur'an decided to get rid of that critical part that every contemporary of this event for 600 years prior to this included. The Qur'an's inclusion of Christ is clearly corrupted because of this. Every mention of Christ includes the crucifixion except the Quran, which was written after the fact and does not have anything to verify that this is true.

 

[Violette]

Except islam denies the crucifixion which was the universal contemporary account of what happened to Christ. 600 years later whoever was responsible for changing the gospel into the form we know as the Qur'an decided to get rid of that critical part that every contemporary of this event for 600 years prior to this included. The Qur'an's inclusion of Christ is clearly corrupted because of this. Every mention of Christ includes the crucifixion except the Quran, which was written after the fact and does not have anything to verify that this is true.

Exactly, there's plenty of non Christian sources that back the crucifixion of Jesus. I haven't studied Islam very much but I've read that they believe Judas died instead of Jesus.

 

[Yahda]

The truth of the matter is that neither Jesus nor Muhammad was mentioned by God or his prophets, neither did our forefathers follow their message. These figures were created by religion, not God.

 

[Damien50]

A servant, man, king to the Israelites, son of God, son of man, the messiah, prophet, mediator, bridegroom of the church...

Whether he is God or not is of little importance to me. Some Christians see it, others don't and it has been controversial since the first century.

I'm more of the belief that God has revealed Himself over time with the eventual end result being full revelation of all things He is spiritually. I mean this in the way that God could have possibly manifested himself in the spiritual that was Jesus but He could have also manifested himself as Jesus from conception. Either way Jesus holds much power, more than any other man with the ability to not sin and have been far more advanced than anyone else his age even in childhood. Jesus being able to fast for forty days and resisting temptation from the devil, expounding upon God's laws, and an utterly high amount of confidence. That's sounds like no mere man to me leading me to believe him to be the second Adam or more but not just some miraculous birth.

I don't see Jesus or anything about him from a Trinitarian point of view as being out of the realm of possibility because Jesus did the impossible whether because he was God or God worked through him. God can theologically do anything so I see no reason why he couldn't do this. I mean the bible doesn't even say there aren't other gods but the idea that there are other “gods” who exist as real supernatural beings, albeit infinitely inferior to the only Creator and Redeemer, pervades the Bible. The Psalms fairly explode with evidence. “There is none like you among the gods, O Lord” (86:8); “For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; he is to be revered above all gods” (96:4); “Our Lord is above all gods” (135:5); “Ascribe to Yahweh, [you] gods, ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength” (29:1, my trans.); “He is exalted above all gods” (97:7); “For Yahweh is a great god, and a great king above all gods” (95:3, my trans.). And so on.

I am more of the opinion that Yahda leans towards in that I see nowhere for Muhammad to fit like she sees no place for Jesus.


TLDR: Jesus could be God or filled with God but isn't merely a man like any before or after him. Muhammad is false and irrelevant in relation to the Israelite/Hebrew faith.

 

[Lisa]

Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?" God said to Moses, " I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you. Exodus 3:13-14


So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
John 8:57-59


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16


After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." Matthew 3:16-17


Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Philippians 2:5-7


This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4

And when He came out onto the land, He was met by a man from the city who was possessed with demons; and who had not put on any clothing for a long time, and was not living in a house, but in the tombs. Seeing Jesus, he cried out and fell before Him, and said in a loud voice, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me." Luke 8:27-28

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Hebrews 13:8

 

[True World Order]

Jesus (pbuh) prophesied the coming of Muhammad (pbuh)...

John 16 12-13
I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

 

[Lisa]

Jesus (pbuh) prophesied the coming of Muhammad (pbuh)...

John 16 12-13
I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Muhammad was called the spirit of truth? But Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit...
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”
John 14:26

 

[True World Order]

Muhammad was called the spirit of truth? But Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit...
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”
John 14:26

Aye, the Holy Spirit of Muhammad (pbuh) who was still with The Father before his incarnation on earth, just like every other soul...

 

[Lisa]

Aye, the Holy Spirit of Muhammad (pbuh) who was still with The Father before his incarnation on earth, just like every other soul...

Well, you do have that wrong. Only the Word was with God and was God.
About us;
“For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.” Psalms 139:13

 

[floss]

Except islam denies the crucifixion which was the universal contemporary account of what happened to Christ. 600 years later whoever was responsible for changing the gospel into the form we know as the Qur'an decided to get rid of that critical part that every contemporary of this event for 600 years prior to this included. The Qur'an's inclusion of Christ is clearly corrupted because of this. Every mention of Christ includes the crucifixion except the Quran, which was written after the fact and does not have anything to verify that this is true.

They have to denied the crucifixation because "you know who" does not want man to have salvation. If you denied the death and resurrection, then no way you will "believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead". How can God raise you up in the last day if you don't believed he have raised Jesus from the dead. Anyone that denied the crucifixation and resurrection is gonna have a bad time.

A man cannot died for your sins but God definitely could. Jesus is the only sinless lamb ever lived.

Romans 10:9King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[True World Order]

Well, you do have that wrong. Only the Word was with God and was God.
About us;
“For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.” Psalms 139:13

Who formed Jesus (pbuh) in his mother's womb?

 

[Lisa]

Who formed Jesus (pbuh) in his mother's womb?

I can't see the post numbers on my phone but read my post right above the one you made about muhammad....that will tell you what you need to know about Jesus.

 

[True World Order]

Numbers 23 19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The "sinless" and "godly" nature of Jesus (pbuh) is questionable when you think about his racism towards the Canaanite woman or how he got angry and cursed an innocent fig tree when he didn't know that it wasn't the season for figs... He displayed very human behaviour for a "god" is what I'm saying...

 

[Lisa]

Numbers 23 19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The "sinless" and "godly" nature of Jesus (pbuh) is questionable when you think about his racism towards the Canaanite woman or how he got angry and cursed an innocent fig tree when he didn't know that it wasn't the season for figs... He displayed very human behaviour for a "god" is what I'm saying...

I have kept silent for a long time, I have kept still and restrained Myself. Now like a woman in labor I will groan, I will both gasp and pant.
Isaiah 42:14

“-for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God-”
Exodus 34:14