Who Was Jesus?

[grateful servant]

Numbers 23 19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?.

Yet, Jesus called himself "son of man", his followers called him "a man approved by God" and Jesus repented. Soooo.... ¯\(º_o)/¯

 

[Lisa]

Yet, Jesus called himself "son of man", his followers called him "a man approved by God" and Jesus repented. Soooo.... ¯\(º_o)/¯

What did Jesus repent of?

 

[Mr. Blah]

and at the end of that same chapter....
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
It says I need to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God to have life, not that I have to believe he is God.
So whether Thomas was right or not, I don't have to accept Jesus is God to believe and have life. I only need to believe he is the Christ, the son of God.

As a loving Teacher, he would rebuke Thomas as he did to Peter regard him as "Satan".

So, you don't acknowledge the divinity of Jesus?

A son/child of man inherits every characteristic and every qualities of man (mortal, limited in science, limited in potential, not divine, etc.) from his human father.
So, a Son of God inherits every characteristic and every qualities of God (immortal, omniscience, omnipotent, divinity, etc.) from his God Father.

 

[Mr. Blah]

Yet, Jesus called himself "son of man", his followers called him "a man approved by God" and Jesus repented. Soooo.... ¯\(º_o)/¯

Jesus is BOTH Son of Man and Son of God.

Jesus is referred to as the “Son of Man” 88 times in the New Testament. A first meaning of the phrase “Son of Man” is as a reference to the prophecy of Daniel 7:13-14, “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.” The description “Son of Man” was a Messianic title. Jesus is the One who was given dominion and glory and a kingdom. When Jesus used this phrase, He was assigning the Son of Man prophecy to Himself. The Jews of that era would have been intimately familiar with the phrase and to whom it referred. Jesus was proclaiming Himself as the Messiah.

A second meaning of the phrase “Son of Man” is that Jesus was truly a human being. God called the prophet Ezekiel “son of man” 93 times. God was simply calling Ezekiel a human being. A son of a man is a man. Jesus was fully God (John 1:1), but He was also a human being (John 1:14). First John 4:2 tells us, “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.” Yes, Jesus was the Son of God—He was in His essence God. Yes, Jesus was also the Son of Man—He was in His essence a human being. In summary, the phrase “Son of Man” indicates that Jesus is the Messiah and that He is truly a human being.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Son-of-Man.html

 

[God_Is_Formless]

Except islam denies the crucifixion which was the universal contemporary account of what happened to Christ.

It's an account, exactly. That doesn't mean it happened. Especially when the Qur'an denies it ever happened.

Even then, what's the big deal if one denies or affirms it?

You people make a mountain out of a molehill because of that.

And it's not the universal account of what happened to Jesus. The universe is so vast that Earth can only be considered to be like a drop in all of its own oceans in comparison to it. Please, don't overstate matters.

Same goes for Jesus being deified or ascribed as a son to The Almighty Creator. You don't have any proof whatsoever for saying that. You've never seen God Almighty and yet you dare to speak about Him things which you can only assume to be true? Fear God Almighty please since you don't know and only He Knows how better off you'd be if you really left it all up to Him concerning The Truth of it all!

 

[God_Is_Formless]

A man cannot died for your sins but God definitely could.

What sorcery is this???

God does not die. It goes against the very principle of being God. Everything else dies, except Him!

 

[God_Is_Formless]

Exactly, there's plenty of non Christian sources that back the crucifixion of Jesus.

They back but do not prove it at all!

Proof of something means that nobody can deny it when you present it to them!

I come with facts and logical reasoning when i present to you that God Does Not Resemble any thing in any way.

What can beat that logic?

Certainly not The Bible which is only a book. I even agree to leave Scriptures out of the issue. Just put yourself in the shoes of a religiously-uninformed citizen for God's Sake.

All of nature and everything that surrounds us speak about The Existence of An Intelligent Designer Whom we've never seen! So how can we ever say that He's anything but The Only One Who's Truly Unknown and Unimaginable? How dare we ascribe to Him things which are common to us mere mortals? It's a total lack of respect considering that nothing existed besides Him! He's More Real than anything!

 

[God_Is_Formless]

“Our Lord is above all gods” (135:5)

That's the same as saying the Sacred Wording that all Prophets taught their respective nations, which is

There is no god but God

It simply means that man has been known to wrongfully deify, knowingly or unknowingly, things which are other than God.

When you give more importance to money than to God, you're actually deifying money. I daresay even when a beggar comes knocking at your door and you've withheld from him however much amount for fear of not being able to cater for your own needs/desires at a later date, you've actually believed that money, on its own, will be able to do anything for you whereas Only God Can, therefore making it a god.

 

[rainerann]

Exactly, there's plenty of non Christian sources that back the crucifixion of Jesus. I haven't studied Islam very much but I've read that they believe Judas died instead of Jesus.

This is true. Roman historian Tacitus testifies to the crucifixion of Christ. "Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus." (Annals 15.44).

Along with Josephus, the Babylonian Talmud, a Syriac stoic philosopher named Mara bar Serapion. All non-Christian sources, not to mention the hundreds of witnesses represented by the early church of the crucifixion of Christ. To say there was no crucifixion is to say that you believe in a corrupt version of the Gospel. There is no feasible way that hundreds of witnesses were lying whereas one man 600 years later was telling the truth. That doesn't make sense at all.

Most things are considered true when there is more than one witness. It is how science determines something is true. They don't do one test to determine whether penicillin will kill bacteria. They do several. No one in any field of any reputation depends on the testimony of one witness especially when that witness comes 600 years after the fact and has no way to test whether something is true or not. The presence of this testimony has also not diminished the counter argument in the least.

The only source for this alternate view is the Quran which is countered by several other testimonies from a variety of religious beliefs that the crucifixion did happen, so the Quran is false. This doesn't mean the church is perfect. It just means the Quran is a false witness of Christ.

 

[Haich]

Such a preoccupation with the crucifixion lol hypothetically speaking even if he was killed on a cross, it still doesn't explain the misinterpretation of his words

I think it was TWO who posted:

Jesus (pbuh) prophesied the coming of Muhammad (pbuh)...

John 16 12-13
I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

This clearly prophecies a messenger coming after Jesus. The foundation of Christianity relies on the belief that Jesus was God. If that was the case, please explain where he said this and why he as a God chose to die. Doesn't make sense and if we're rational for a minute and challenge the bible you'd see that too

Without the belief that he's God and died for our sins on the cross there's no Christianity. It's a collection of narrations from men not God.

I put it to you that Jesus was a metaphorical son of God, a man chosen by God who was raised to the heavens to return and fulfill his role as the messiah. The trinity is not true there is no clear reference only ambiguously interpreted verses.

The Quran was sent to clarify this, it's not an Arab religion. It's not a racist religion it's the seal of God and to me, the Quran clarifies who Jesus and his mother Mary were

 

[JoChris]

Such a preoccupation with the crucifixion lol hypothetically speaking even if he was killed on a cross, it still doesn't explain the misinterpretation of his words

I think it was TWO who posted:

Jesus (pbuh) prophesied the coming of Muhammad (pbuh)...

John 16 12-13
I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

This clearly prophecies a messenger coming after Jesus. The foundation of Christianity relies on the belief that Jesus was God. If that was the case, please explain where he said this and why he as a God chose to die. Doesn't make sense and if we're rational for a minute and challenge the bible you'd see that too

Without the belief that he's God and died for our sins on the cross there's no Christianity. It's a collection of narrations from men not God.

I put it to you that Jesus was a metaphorical son of God, a man chosen by God who was raised to the heavens to return and fulfill his role as the messiah. The trinity is not true there is no clear reference only ambiguously interpreted verses.

The Quran was sent to clarify this, it's not an Arab religion. It's not a racist religion it's the seal of God and to me, the Quran clarifies who Jesus and his mother Mary were

Spirit refers to Holy Spirit. Not a self-proclaimed prophet.
The very next book after the Gospel of John. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=KJV
Verse 4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[rainerann]

Spirit refers to Holy Spirit. Not a self-proclaimed prophet.
The very next book after the Gospel of John. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=KJV
Verse 4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This was in fulfillment of the words of the prophet Joel quoted by Peter

"And it will be in the last days, says God,
that I will pour out My Spirit on all humanity;
then your sons and your daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.
18 I will even pour out My Spirit
on My male and female slaves in those days,
and they will prophesy, "(Acts 2:17-18; Joel 2:28)

There was never going to be another prophet after Christ. The Messiah is the final messenger. His disciples preach this final message of salvation through Christ.

 

[True World Order]

Spirit refers to Holy Spirit. Not a self-proclaimed prophet.
The very next book after the Gospel of John. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=KJV
Verse 4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Considering the nature of the revelation of the Qur'an, the description of the "holy spirit" is blatantly more accurately applicable to Muhammad (pbuh) than some intangible concept. Muhammad (pbuh) repeated the truth that he heard and prophesied of things to come. The holy spirit of truth that you believe in seems to tell different Christians and different Christian sects different things, whereas pretty much every sect of Islam agrees on theology.

Come on bro, trying to convince us with the ramblings of the self-appointed apostle isn't going to help your case. I prefer the Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) over the gospel of Paul...

 

[God_Is_Formless]

I think they really don't get the implications of attributing a son to The Almighty and deifying a simple man called Jesus.

How many male human beings may happen to share a resemblance with the generally-common image of Jesus?

How many of them may fall into the trap to, at a certain point of their lives, start thinking of themselves as the Messiah himself?

 

[JoChris]

Considering the nature of the revelation of the Qur'an, the description of the "holy spirit" is blatantly more accurately applicable to Muhammad (pbuh) than some intangible concept. Muhammad (pbuh) repeated the truth that he heard and prophesied of things to come. The holy spirit of truth that you believe in seems to tell different Christians and different Christian sects different things, whereas pretty much every sect of Islam agrees on theology.

Come on bro, trying to convince us with the ramblings of the self-appointed apostle isn't going to help your case. I prefer the Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) over the gospel of Paul...

Problem with that theory of yours is that the Book of Acts was written by Luke. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke–Acts

 

[True World Order]

I think they really don't get the implications of attributing a son to The Almighty and deifying a simple man called Jesus.

It is literally breaking the first commandment...

"God had a son" = polytheism

John 5 30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

How many male human beings may happen to share a resemblance with the generally-common image of Jesus?

I do, apparently, because I am a white guy with long hair and a beard...

Nevermind the fact that Jesus (pbuh) was a Semite, so likely had darker skin than me and he said it is shameful for a man to have long hair...

How many of them may fall into the trap to, at a certain point of their lives, start thinking of themselves as the Messiah himself?

A lot of people think they are the most important thing that ever lived, selfishness and arrogance is the cause of a great deal of the problems in the world...

 

[God_Is_Formless]

I do, apparently, because I am a white guy with long hair and a beard...

Exactly my point!

And they are the same ones who warn you that fake Christs are gonna appear sooner or later... Smh

My 666th post

 

[True World Order]

Problem with that theory of yours is that the Book of Acts was written by Luke. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke–Acts

Ok, my bad, I always thought it was Paul... My point still stands that the holy spirit "who will speak only what he hears and he will tell you what is yet to come" is still blatantly more applicable to Muhammad (pbuh) than some intangible concept...

I liked this from the link you gave earlier

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know

 

[JoChris]

No.
That is why it is important to check for yourself. Many letters to individual churches were written by the apostle Paul. https://www.gotquestions.org/how-many-books-did-Paul-write.html

He is first named as Saul https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+8&version=KJV, his conversion is next chapter. He does not contradict anything the Gospels say at all.

Jesus is fully God, fully man. The fancy theological term is hypostatic union. http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-is-the-hypostatic-union

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD.

 

[God_Is_Formless]

Jesus is fully God, fully man.

A thing is either one thing, or another.

It's never positive and negative at the same time.